Small ship combat sucks

[Tarman]

I skimmed thru the thread and I nearly lmao after reading thru the comments about CZs being "late game" content due to the engineered NPCs in there...
Not gonna quote them all, I don't wanna write a book.
The only thing that is engineered in CZs are the hull points or rather the overall healthpool of the said NPCs increasing only the ammo spent and the time wasted to take out a somewhat useful number of enemy ships.
If the AI was a bit better than in RES or the game in general, yes, it would be "late-game" level and would require more "skill" and experience to be successful in a CZ.

Like I said, the only thing that increases on those NPCs is the time to kill them.

And as for the OPs opinion, Frontier has got it wrong with the whole player progression since they introduced the powercreep, defense stacking, easy credit farming and big ships that basically make you invincible with enough Shield boosters and engineering.
So ye, small ship combat, be it PvP or PvE is kind of in a bad place since nobody is willing to gimp themselves by flying small ships. And that's something Frontier notices and thus puts more focus on big ships rather than making small ship combat interesting.

But if you like small ships such as the Vulture, you can always join my squad, we kill stuff in Vulture wings, so not everything is lost just yet

I actually just got back into the combat game by respeccing my dusty old Viper3 and taking it out to some random warzones, and testing my interdiction abilities on Wanteds insys. Twin C2 cannon and twin C1 beams, all fixed, which is also relatively new for me. It's been a lot of fun, after remembering not to pull down more than the ship can handle; after flying a K2 for a long time I had to rescale my target ambitions a bit.

 

[The Lawful]

Fact is the NPCs got a lot tougher since they introduced the new round-based CZ. Taking out a spec ops FdL takes some time even for a fully engineered Vette, and Eagles won't simply melt anymore. Everything is harder now and more challenging. Which is good, but may not be suited too well for small ships anymore unless in a wing. I would steer clear from CZ for a while and go to HazRes or CNB for the time being.

O7,

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

Yeah when I said you I meant people in general not you specifically.

It should be hard for a beginner. They shouldn't be able to start in a Sidewinder and kill anacondas.

Old 1.1incursion mission was doable before this engineering nonsense we got. Last wave was precisely that.

 

[Schmack]

Old 1.1incursion mission was doable before this engineering nonsense we got. Last wave was precisely that.

It didn't make any sense. Why want the anaconda you killed with a stock sidey?

 

[Hellfire85]

Fact is the NPCs got a lot tougher since they introduced the new round-based CZ. Taking out a spec ops FdL takes some time even for a fully engineered Vette, and Eagles won't simply melt anymore. Everything is harder now and more challenging. Which is good, but may not be suited too well for small ships anymore unless in a wing. I would steer clear from CZ for a while and go to HazRes or CNB for the time being.

O7,

Challenging? So for you, challenging = needing more ammo and more DPS while leaving the flying and maneuvering skills at the same place?
Sorry, but lol.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

It didn't make any sense. Why want the anaconda you killed with a stock sidey?

Why would you want it harder for beginners than what it was back then?

 

[Neutrino Sunset]

Is it not still true that small ships are less of a target in a CZ?
I haven’t visited one for a while but it used to be that the higher value ships were targeted more frequently by enemy forces? You could pop about for a good while in a DBS or Courier and not attract too much attention.

Also, do you need to kill your foe totally in a CZ to collect or win the confrontation?... I’m sure it used to be some kind of percentage of damage thing if you just wanted to collect credits?

I don't have too much trouble staying alive in the low intensity CZs, and yes you can certainly do the REZ thing where you put a few shots into each enemy before they die to get your bounty. However, in a REZ the feds will always win, whereas in a CZ you need to make a real contribution if you are going to win the engagement and get the maximum reward from it.

The reason I've been doing CZ is that after playing ED for a couple of weeks they are the most fun thing I've found so far. They are certainly a challenge in a small non-engineered ship, which is good because I'm learning a lot, but I'd still like to be able to make a more meaningful contribution.

 

[Neutrino Sunset]

I think players want to attack the largest ships in the game with the small, agile ships.
...
I don't think throwing balance out because of VO mining is a good idea. A corvette vs a cutter, decent balance. A eagle vs a corvette, the eagle should be toast if solo, non-engineered with a mid level or lower skilled pilot.

There's a reason pirate leaders aren't found in eagles.

You are totally missing the whole point of the discussion. I'm not aggrieved because I couldn't smack down Condas in my Eagle, I'm aggrieved because it takes more than half the entire ammo loadout of a medium muti-cannon firing at point blank range into a disabled Cobra MkIII to kill it.

 

[Chaparral]

I mentioned this earlier, I will try to be more articulate.

Opponents are now engineered, have hull reinforcements, use prismatic and biweave shields, and frequently shield cell.

The total damage potential of a small ship (total number of hit points of damage that can be dealt before ammo is exhausted) has remained constant.

CZs do not scale based on pilot skill level or player ship type.

Given that CZs have a minimum number of kills, and types of kills - the small ship is fundamentally excluded for a solo player.

What can be done?

1) Instance scaling based on player traits. Not likely - there are no examples of FDEV having the capacity to do this.
2) Buff small and medium weapons damage or penetration. No way. There is a well established armor pen mechanic.
3) Increase ammo cap for small and medium weapons? Not a bad idea IMO, but it won't get past the time restrictions for CZ instances.
4) Create events to support smaller ships and exclude larger ships. IMO this is the only way to make smaller ships relevant in conflict scenarios.

 

[Kaocraft]

Basically I think the power creep from Engineers,
If we have to have them, should have been flipped. Instead of a modest increase to damage outputs and a monumental, ridiculous, game-hackingly absurd upper threshold to ship durability, we should have had some modest, specialized, and circumventable additions to ship defense along with weapons which can be modified to hit harder and better.

Anyway the game had some issues but was pretty well balanced before Engineers. It's probably ruined forever now. Not because it's inherently unfixable or even all that complicated, but there are just too many entrenched interests to allow for real changes to be made.

If Frontier were to bring in someone who actually understands game balance, say a David Sirlin or maybe some of the more informed high level players from these forums, and announce a comprehensive combat rebalance update, with the forewarning that "none of your modules/favorite ships/strategies/builds are safe", I'd be more excited about that than "space shoes" or "gassy moon landings" or whatever it is people are always raving about.

 

[Schmack]

You are totally missing the whole point of the discussion. I'm not aggrieved because I couldn't smack down Condas in my Eagle, I'm aggrieved because it takes more than half the entire ammo loadout of a medium muti-cannon firing at point blank range into a disabled Cobra MkIII to kill it.

What I got from your post is that you haven't played long but you want to do combat zones in a small ship. The answer is obvious and it's not change the game to make your small ship better at killing other ships in combat zones. It's for you to graduate from your small ship to something more befitting of a combat zone pilot. It's fun to fly small ships, but there's a reason they are cheap.

You use crap weapons to shoot buffed ships you'll get crap results.

 

[Vasious]

What I got from your post is that you haven't played long but you want to do combat zones in a small ship. The answer is obvious and it's not change the game to make your small ship better at killing other ships in combat zones. It's for you to graduate from your small ship to something more befitting of a combat zone pilot. It's fun to fly small ships, but there's a reason they are cheap.

You use crap weapons to shoot buffed ships you'll get crap results.

So if CZs are not the place for any small ships, even to dog fight one anther, it begs the question

Why are there even small ships in CZs at all, why do the NPC factions use small ships, with their crap weapons that arent suited for CZs

Small ships cant hurt each other and cant hurt large ships, so why not just populate CZ with Mediums and Larges to duke it out

 

[Hellfire85]

@Neutrino Sunset get a vulture, engineer it, get some overcharged weapons (do the powerplant first tho), make sure you have mats for reloads and CZs can be very fun.
But if you just want quick PvE kills, prepare your mind and soul for some crippling depression inducing grind to get a big ship, with big shields and be like all those lazy wannabe Capt. Kirks on their (empty) Cutter bridge and farm away at CZs or RES sites. Don't forget to go solo or PG so you never get into PvP trouble x)
More seriously, these days (sadly) engineering is mandatory (thanks frontier...) to do anything except cqc, so you won't be able to do a lot of damage especially against CZ enemies in an Eagle no matter how good of a pilot you are.
You will run out of ammo before completing the objective.
However, there is always a way to do enough damage if you fit railguns and target modules, works with multicannons too.
Wait until an NPC drops somebody's shields and fire at the powerplant.
That should work.

 

[yianniv]

It was also mentioned that these missions are still stackable if you get them for different factions. Does anyone know whether this is definitely still true? I tried stacking CZ massacre missions already but that doesn't work anymore, each kill counts towards only one mission.

They are stackable if two factions pay you to massacre the same third faction.

 

[Schmack]

So if CZs are not the place for any small ships, even to dog fight one anther, it begs the question

Why are there even small ships in CZs at all, why do the NPC factions use small ships, with their crap weapons that arent suited for CZs

Small ships cant hurt each other and cant hurt large ships, so why not just populate CZ with Mediums and Larges to duke it out

Only if you misunderstand what "begging the question" means.

Otherwise, it's likely along the same line of reasoning as putting excessive amounts of DbX ships in CNBs and haz res sites and having them spam chaff non stop. I mean, who does serious combat in a DbX for anything other than lulz and "see I told you I could"?

imo the small ships in CZs are to prevent paying out bigger bonds, a left over from days gone by, and for the times when A rated ships could stand a puncher's chance.

 

[Captain Willard]

After following this thread. I pulled out my old I Eagle and took it out for a spin.
I'd forgotten what a blast it is doing combat in it.
Good fast paced combat beats the hell outta flying a corvette thru a rez zone or a cz like a god amongs't mere npc's.

 

[Kaocraft]

Only if you misunderstand what "begging the question" means.

Otherwise, it's likely along the same line of reasoning as putting excessive amounts of DbX ships in CNBs and haz res sites and having them spam chaff non stop. I mean, who does serious combat in a DbX for anything other than lulz and "see I told you I could"?

imo the small ships in CZs are to prevent paying out bigger bonds, a left over from days gone by, and for the times when A rated ships could stand a puncher's chance.

I believe it was Voltaire who said, "I disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to correct people on the proper use of 'begging the question'."
+1 Repping you for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Lori Jameson]

I like this comment

I'm not at all 'gud' at combat but decided recently to 'improve' above novice (already elite exploration and now getting close to elite trade - without void opals!) so kitted out a med ship for Thargoids and a courier for 'pirate lord' missions etc.

I've gone to expert in a week (stop laughing!) and have been having fun - real fun, not being sarcastic - being killed by Thargoids a few times and annoying, occasionally killing, the 'bounty' being hunted.

Both ships I use are quite heavily engineered, so time 'invested' to make them better. Would I present a challenge to a big ship? Never, but it is fun being a little wasp occasionally

Aye, smalls are quite fun to fly. However, they used to present a threat to large ships as one would need an escort to deal with the thing on your tail. SLFs are a good counter to smalls. 5G Dirty Drags are a better counter as it allows Vettes and Condas (to an extent) to basically pivot around faster than you can get in their blind spot.

 

[The Lawful]

Challenging? So for you, challenging = needing more ammo and more DPS while leaving the flying and maneuvering skills at the same place?
Sorry, but lol.

You're working against a counter now and victory is not guaranteed. Plus, you now get secondary objectives like spec ops, correspondants or battleships that take additional effort and have to be weighed against simply increasing the kill count. I find that challenging. YMMV.

O7,

 

[Arkadi]

Except the concept of the engineers is such that military ships being engineered makes no sense. The engineers are supposed to be shady characters, doing things that push your modules past their spec performance ratings. Military ships should be basic military hardware, even if that means A rated hardware. If the engineers were military folks, that's different, but they aren't. Quite the opposite (maybe the Sarge?).

Why would anyone go through all the grindy engineering just to have the NPCs balanced back to net zero? You engineer to get an advantage. If you don't want one, don't engineer. Imagine you engineer your FSD for 20% better jump range, then the hand of god puts everything 20% further away than it was. Hey you still got your jump range, but balance and all...

I did like the process of unlocking the engineers. It was nice to have a goal in the game and "doing quests" for the engineers. But opinions on that may differ.

What I felt as a grind was the actual material gathering for the blueprints. It was really bad in the first year, when Engineers were released. Now I wouldn't call it a grind anymore. It's fairly easy to acquire most materials and you can trade them at the material traders. I think material gathering for engineers is at a good spot as it is now.
Also it's nice to have more variety in ship builds. It's not always just about getting an advantage for everyone. However in my personla opinion, I would like to have the possibility to buy or rent pre-engineered ships. I don't like the tinkering and it would open up the access to engineered ships for everyone.

About military ships and engineers: since we have remote workshops, I think engineering is pretty much standard affaire for everyone. It would be stupid from the military to not take advantage of it.

So finally I am here to make my point that I think it's perfectly ok that NPC's have the same possiblities in ship builds like players. What needs adressing is (engineered) defensive stacking.