Player affecting factions even in Pvt and Solo

[darkseer]

ok but you inserted yourself into it I was not replying to you i was replying rep. you inserted yourself into it in some weird attempt to score a point? now your backpedaling and trying to split hairs.

I think you're stuck in a loop here, and automatically placed my post in that loop tbh. Here's the thing: I do not disagree with you!
I was responding specifically to someone who said that Powerplay was not intended for PvP. By Sandro's own words it clearly was, but that includes both direct (aka pew pew) and indirect.

I didn't make a mistake this other guy who got it wrong. even though i took what he said out of context since he was clearly talking about pvp combat with someone else who was saying that powerplay was for pvp combat.

you demand that people need to be clear were here's the rub then you need to be clear your the one that inserted yourself there was a clear idea of what pvp meant in my post and in reps post. your the one that stepped with a im gonna say pvp but i mean something else btw what your looking for is PvPvE. just so you know

 

[EponymousCowherd]

When people complain about being attacked by other players the usual cry is "go play in solo or PG".

This is fine when, apart from meeting other players, the game is the same.

If Power Play is moved to Open only or, worse, PG and Solo players have no effect on the BGS, then this will no longer be an acceptable demand.

A solo PvE player who wants to earn his Prismatics or boost a faction will have no option but to play in open. They still don't want direct PvP, however.

What do you think a lot of these players forced into open in order play in something other than a sterile copy of the "real" galaxy would do when they are attacked?

PvP players scream blue murder about "logging" now. Making anything "open only", particularly the entire BGS, will make the frequency of "logging" significantly worse. Frontier know this. This is why there will never be a difference between open and the other two modes.

Get used to it.

 

[Winterwalker]

Making PP Open Only removes the choice and forces people to play in a way they don't want to play.
Which goes against "Play your own way" / "Choice is yours" tag lines Frontier keep using.

Even the KS pitch had "You are at the centre of the action any time, any place and any way you choose – each action has a consequence, and influences the galaxy around you. "

You influence the BGS by your actions and there has never been any question of making that open only, you CAN play the environment regardless of how PP is handled. However Power Play is different to BGS because it provides an environment for PvP where neither player is required to commit a crime (or artificially disable notifications) to engage. That's missing in the main BGS, so some players are not catered to.

PP would imo see better uptake if it wasn't DIRECTLY undermined by Private Group play, the BGS can be undermined too but the economy simulation plays a bigger part so the effect is not as stark. I support PP being made open only myself. If you don't want to be my content then play the BGS instead. Then powerplay is just a section of the game you don't play, in the same way as trading is not something you do if you're a bounty hunter.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

I support PP being made open only myself.

Especially as most of the toys you get from PP seem (to my admittedly inexperienced eyes) to be PvP specific.

 

[darkseer]

However Power Play is different to BGS because it provides an environment for PvP where neither player is required to commit a crime

yea thats not a reason to suddenly cut out a large chunk of the community from being able to take part though.

 

[darkseer]

Especially as most of the toys you get from PP seem (to my admittedly inexperienced eyes) to be PvP specific.

well there not actualy toys meant for pvp they are supposed to be special items for supporting the faction. but pvp will always have a meta so if a faction has something thats good for the meta its gonna be used that doesn't mean that item is meant for purely pvp. its like saying well the FDL is a use alot by pvper so the FDL should only be sold in open.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

well there not actualy toys meant for pvp they are supposed to be special items for supporting the faction. but pvp will always have a meta so if a faction has something thats good for the meta its gonna be used that doesn't mean that item is meant for purely pvp. its like saying well the FDL is a use alot by pvper so the FDL should only be sold in open.

No, not really.

You don't need Prismatics to cope with NPCs.

I'm generally against features being restricted to Open because it rarely makes sense and tends to be just an ulterior motive for more PvP, but PP is kind of the exception to this.

 

[darkseer]

No, not really.

You don't need Prismatics to cope with NPCs.

I'm generally against features being restricted to Open because it rarely makes sense and tends to be just an ulterior motive for more PvP, but PP is kind of the exception to this.

and you dont need a FDL to cope with npc

 

[GreyAreaUK]

and you dont need a FDL to cope with npc

We're talking about upgrades to ships, not the ships themselves. Apples and oranges. Completely different arguments.

 

[darkseer]

We're talking about upgrades to ships, not the ships themselves. Apples and oranges. Completely different arguments.

only in scale more golden delicious and red delicious.
i just applied the line of logic that you were using. ie this thing is meta this thing should be open only. yes it's outrageous to say that only the FDL should only be open only but it's outrageous to say that this gear should only be available in open because its meta. even more so when the mode that it is earn in is meant to give content to both pvp pilots and pve pilots why is it now suddenly ok to punish the pve pilots and remove their content.

 

[Lateralus]

Naturally there are those who don't share the opinion that Powerplay being available in all game modes is a problem - for some, it's a feature.

I expect it depends, to an extent, on one's personal preference regarding PvP.

There is a difference between "encouraging" and "forcing" though.
Making PP Open Only removes the choice and forces people to play in a way they don't want to play.
Which goes against "Play your own way" / "Choice is yours" tag lines Frontier keep using.

Even the KS pitch had "You are at the centre of the action any time, any place and any way you choose – each action has a consequence, and influences the galaxy around you. "

I choose not to be your content and make you nothing more than a background blip in my game, while I enjoy being the centre of the action for my Princess.

Look, the main argument around making Powerplay open only is that currently the direct PvP side of it (the main reason they introduced Powerplay according to Sandro) is dead because of the modes. It's very nice that the PvE players have yet another feature pretty much to themselves but it is at the expense of the very audience that PP was aimed at in the first place. In your own words Robert it doesn't work for PvP combat:

True - however there are those who insist that it was meant to be a feature that would revolve around PvP - which cannot be the case for a feature that can be engaged in in any of the three game modes.

Is this a good thing for a competitive player-authored feature? Afterall, people who want to empire build with PvE already have the BGS.. Having free-reign in both the BGS and Powerplay just seems massively unfair on open-orientated players.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Look, the main argument around making Powerplay open only is that currently the direct PvP side of it (the main reason they introduced Powerplay according to Sandro) is dead because of the modes. It's very nice that the PvE players have yet another feature pretty much to themselves but it is at the expense of the very audience that PP was aimed at in the first place. Afterall, in your own words Robert it doesn't work for PvP combat:

The game does not require PvP - for any feature (apart from CQC/Arena). Therefore it's not a PvP focused game. Given that no-one bought a PvP-focused game, there's no reason to expect that any game feature will be optimally engaged in using PvP - as it is a completely optional play-style choice. This obviously includes Powerplay at this time - even if Frontier included the "Open only" proposal as one of the possibilities for potential redevelopment for Powerplay in the first Flash Topic on the subject.

Is this a good thing for a competitive player-authored feature? Afterall, people who want to empire build with PvE already have the BGS.. Having free-reign in both the BGS and Powerplay just seems massively unfair on open-orientated players.

Is Powerplay a "competitive player-authored feature" that requires PvP? The question is "Why should Frontier PvP-gate any content to satisfy the demands of a subset of the player-base?" - given that all players have bought the base game and the base game includes Powerplay in it's feature set.

What may be seen as "massively unfair" by some open oriented players can be viewed as a "paid for feature" by players with no interest in PvP (in a game that has no requirement to engage in PvP). Removing content from players in Solo and Private Groups (by PvP-gating it to Open) can be viewed as "massively unfair" - even if it might result in a "feature" for open oriented players.

 

[Lateralus]

The game does not require PvP - for any feature (apart from CQC/Arena). Therefore it's not a PvP focused game. Given that no-one bought a PvP-focused game, there's no reason to expect that any game feature will be optimally engaged in using PvP - as it is a completely optional play-style choice. This obviously includes Powerplay at this time - even if Frontier included the "Open only" proposal as one of the possibilities for potential redevelopment for Powerplay in the first Flash Topic on the subject.

Lot's of people did buy the game for PvP though, and it makes sense that the main game should have PvP-unique features (activities, goals etc). If it doesn't, the developers are deliberately leaving a % of their community out of ongoing game development, which is wrong.

Is Powerplay a "competitive player-authored feature" that requires PvP? The question is "Why should Frontier PvP-gate any content to satisfy the demands of a subset of the player-base?" - given that all players have bought the base game and the base game includes Powerplay in it's feature set.

Because otherwise they lose those players (and revenue), as proven by the amount of PvP players who've quit the game since 2015 because of the design philosophy of Frontier. Also CQC proves Fdev are willing to 'gate' certain features of the base game so that is a non-argument. The fact that CQC is also dead is down to fundamental design flaws (again).

What may be seen as "massively unfair" by some open oriented players can be viewed as a "paid for feature" by players with no interest in PvP (in a game that has no requirement to engage in PvP). Removing content from players in Solo and Private Groups (by PvP-gating it to Open) can be viewed as "massively unfair" - even if it might result in a "feature" for open oriented players.

By that logic the whole game is a paid for feature and cannot include any PvP-unique features. Wut?

 

[EponymousCowherd]

Look, the main argument around making Powerplay open only is that currently the direct PvP side of it (the main reason they introduced Powerplay according to Sandro) is dead because of the modes. It's very nice that the PvE players have yet another feature pretty much to themselves but it is at the expense of the very audience that PP was aimed at in the first place. In your own words Robert it doesn't work for PvP combat:

No, the main reason PvP is dead is due to the massively unbalanced nature of it. Players in basic ships come up against massively engineered PvP builds against which they stand no chance.

 

[Rampant]

I think you're stuck in a loop here, and automatically placed my post in that loop tbh. Here's the thing: I do not disagree with you!
I was responding specifically to someone who said that Powerplay was not intended for PvP. By Sandro's own words it clearly was, but that includes both direct (aka pew pew) and indirect.
PvP in this game is different than other games as you clearly stated, but it's still PvP. So if someone wants to limit that to combat only, they need to specify that. Saying "there is no PvP content in this game" is just as wrong as saying "Powerplay wasn't intended for PvP". Neither sentence specifies what type of PvP they're talking about. Sandro's sentence on the matter is all inclusive though, as it correctly calls it PvP conflict which doesn't limit it to dakka-dakka-pew-pew.

Clear enough?

And there is the problem. Especially in a game like Elite Dangerous. PvP isn't just "PvP".
On the other hand, Powerplay was meant to give players a reason to engage in PvP combat as well as indirect PvP via cargo, merit hauling, missions, etc. You can't exclude one thing, and then include it a sentence later and wipe your hands claiming to be done.
Either Powerplay was meant as an outlet for PvP combat, or it wasn't.

In part.
Of course it was "meant as an outlet for PvP combat"...
But only IN PART.
Not Exclusively so.

The majority of players who have a PvP Combat bent continuously post on the forum blithely insisting that it was supposed to be solely PvP combat <- and they therefore rally against merit hauling being done in modes other than Open.
Or to put it another way, the complaints against PP being available in Solo and PG is a direct indication that they firmly believe that PP must revolve solely around PvP combat. otherwise it is a "mistake", or "broken", or chose any other of the negative vocabulary used in posts such as these.

Indeed, as per this post, this unintentional misunderstanding/deliberate obtuseness from the PvP Combat crowd (who insist that it is "wrong" to have a "PvP" element that can be performed in Solo) - this viewpoint directly implies that PvP must ONLY relate to PvP combat, when it clearly is not intended as such form the outset... as we already agreed above, this game has PvP in more than one simple format of direct pewpew combat.


So I keep asking - what colours are nailed to the everyone's masts?
Do you just want to outgun random haulers - and then the game would be "fixed" for PvP combat... ?
Or do you believe in a more organised approach - where teams can deploy mixed fleets and meet each other, defend their hauliers, or punch a hole in the defense team to get them through??? (In which case this game already has that at your disposal - and the constant complaints are not really merited here if that's what you really want. Of course, players who want this must opt in as per the carrot. Not be forced in, as per the stick.)

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Lateralus]

No, the main reason PvP is dead is due to the massively unbalanced nature of it. Players in basic ships come up against massively engineered PvP builds against which they stand no chance.

I never said PvP is dead, I said PvP within the scope of Powerplay is. Also you cannot mitigate the risk of hostility from engineered players in open for players who steadfastly refuse to engineer or learn counter PvP tactics.

Anyway, all I would recommend to Fdev is that they trial open-only PP (on the live server) for a month or so to see how well it works. If it doesn't work out then they can bin the idea.

 

[Junky Juke]

AFAIK Fdevs vision is that players Have the right to blaze their trail no matter how (solo, pvt, open). Also Open is not universally recognized as the best way to play the game.
So welcome to the solo vs private vs open debate. It lasts since the day 1 (december 2015) and it has filled endless streams of consciousness here on the forum and everywhere in the world. Welcome to the most discussed topic of Elite Dangerous.

 

[Troopi]

Consider it a Game security measure against exploits. If those features were limited to open, the pvp fanatics would spend 24/7 harassing everyone else, to ensure their dominant side. This has happened with a lot of online games, and eventually kills the player base, and reduces it to a few "dementors" that no one wants to play with.
Mates, if you have too few victims to kill in open, then just fight each other to oblivion, and stop harassing the solo/private players.

 

[EponymousCowherd]

I never said PvP is dead, I said PvP within the scope of Powerplay is. Also you cannot mitigate the risk of hostility from engineered players in open for players who steadfastly refuse to engineer or learn counter PvP tactics.

Anyway, all I would recommend to Fdev is that they trial open-only PP (on the live server) for a month or so to see how well it works. If it doesn't work out then they can bin the idea.

It's not going to happen. You need to just accept it.

 

[darkseer]

So welcome to the solo vs private vs open debate. It lasts since the day 1 (december 2015) and it has filled endless streams of consciousness here on the forum and everywhere in the world. Welcome to the most discussed topic of Elite Dangerous

well it has evolved at least remember at launch is was don't like being ganked go solo. now its the gankers trying to shut down solo because they have no more prey.