Player affecting factions even in Pvt and Solo

[Jockey79]

Strange discussion tbh.
In the Focused Feedback thread that Sandro started there appeared to be a clear majority of people who supported Open Only Power Play, and that included a large part of the people who actually engage in Power Play now.

For a start off, there wasn't a "clear majority" at all.

1,500 posts aren't 1,500 users... and several members of that chat had more than one post.
So at best you're looking at around 1,000 individual user accounts, of which anti-open only people were a part of this number.

There were around 90,000 forum users at the time that thread was started (so 1,500 posts (not users remember. posts) is far from any sort of "majority" on the forums).
If you want to use the word "majority", then a 99% majority of forum users ignored the stupid idea posted by Sandro; is a more appropriate use of the word.

So it was the usual vocal minority stamping their feet again, multi-posting to buff the post counts and make it seem more popular than it was.
Which is why the 2nd Feedback thread only hit around 700 posts. Some of them got tired and stopped posting.

 

[Arguendo]

For a start off, there wasn't a "clear majority" at all.

In that thread, which is what I stated, there appeared to be a clear majority of users who were for it. Some of whom I had never seen post in the general areas of the forum. Perhaps they post a lot in the Powerplay section.
I never said the majority of the forum, because we will never know what that is. No thread in the history of the forums have had a majority of forum members get involved.

 

[Jockey79]

Even in chess you remove pieces from the field.

And in chess, you don't accept people trying to change the rules halfway through the game.

The outset of Elite: Dangerous was;

Real Freedom - Go where you like, be what you like - pirate, bounty hunter, trader, assassin, or some mix of all of these.

Trade - Buy low, cross dangerous space lanes, evade or destroy pirates en route, then sell high, if you make the journey!

Fight - Take on the pirates or be one yourself

Progress - Get your pilot rating all the way from "Harmless" to "Elite"

Explore - Head out to the far reaches of space and discover amazing sights

And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...

And now, you're trying to change the rules of the game after people bought it and started playing it.

 

[Winterwalker]

I think there's a misconceptionthinking when people talk about PvP in relation to powerplay they must always be talking about PvP combat. Not always the case. Delivery missions are also part of PP, that's PvP without a shot ever being fired if you can evade an interdiction.

However in the open/private environment defenders are disenfranchised as much as requiring everyone to fly open would do. More imo. Powerplay is hamstrung as a game (more than the simulation assited BGS economy) because when you sign you know, if you're defending a system, you can be undermined in a way you can do 100% nothing about.

I'm not a PvP combat oriented person (100% PvE open) but I think a shame because we already have a BGS and as things stand PP might as well be part of that. There's nothing to distinguish it from the all mode BGS and that's why I've never, playing the game since release, never joined a power.

Spoiler

I'm not sure the argument about console players without premium access stacks up much either because players without Horizons can't land on planets and miss out. Premium maybe a misnoma but if you want access to the whole game then you'll probably need to have purchased the whole package.

 

[Goose4291]

Most of the others have probably got tired beating their head against a brick wall and left. I don't blame them.. I'm probably silly for continuing the debate with the same people over and over.

Pretty much this.

I had a close call at work at the end of last appointment, and realised spending hours arguing with 'grown' men who take their e-spaceships this seriously and have full meltdowns when a devs statement doesn't agree with their preferred viewpoint is an absolute waste of my time.

I'm now getting quite good with the violin again and have got my phys back to.decent levels with all the time I'm not squandering.

 

[Jockey79]

In that thread, which is what I stated, there appeared to be a clear majority of users who were for it. Some of whom I had never seen post in the general areas of the forum. Perhaps they post a lot in the Powerplay section.
I never said the majority of the forum, because we will never know what that is. No thread in the history of the forums have had a majority of forum members get involved.

A "clear majority" of the PvP community; is about the closest, most accurate description you can use.
Not exactly headline news, or proof of anything. We all knew that before Sandro made the thread.

So asking the vocal minority about a major gameplay change isn't helpful.
If FDev want actual feedback, then the most honest thing they can do is put it in the launcher and have it as something to "vote" on before you can log in.
Then all active players get a say.

 

[Jaggid Edje]

However in the open/private environment defenders are disenfranchised as much as requiring everyone to fly open would do. More imo. Powerplay is hamstrung as a game (more than the simulation assited BGS economy) because when you sign you know, if you're defending a system, you can be undermined in a way you can do 100% nothing about.

Totally agree with this statement. Also not a PvP player myself, but I just don't think it is right that someone can engage in actual open conflict against other players without being required to do it in open where the other side can directly fight back if they so choose.

 

[Slade Greymane]

No, the main reason PvP is dead is due to the massively unbalanced nature of it. Players in basic ships come up against massively engineered PvP builds against which they stand no chance.

This right here is the main reason. PvP needs to be balanced.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Totally agree with this statement. Also not a PvP player myself, but I just don't think it is right that someone can engage in actual open conflict against other players without being required to do it in open where the other side can directly fight back if they so choose.

Everyone has the same toolset available to them to attack or defend - however those who prefer PvP can't force others to engage in it - by design.

It's a consequence of buying a game where PvP is entirely optional and not required to participate in any game feature (apart from CQC/Arena, of course).

 

[Jaggid Edje]

Everyone has the same toolset available to them to attack or defend - however those who prefer PvP can't force others to engage in it - by design.

It's a consequence of buying a game where PvP is entirely optional and not required to participate in any game feature (apart from CQC/Arena, of course).

I'm talking open conflict, where players are engaged in actual combat activities. I simply do not agree that someone should be able to avoid PvP in circumstances where they still are doing combat activities. That's splitting hairs over "who you are fighting" not what type of game activity you are doing and ultimately if the opposing side has players on it you should be forced to fight them. Avoiding opponents you think have an actual chance of beating you while actively working against them isn't making a game feature choice, it's just cowardice.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I'm talking open conflict, where players are engaged in actual combat activities. I simply do not agree that someone should be able to avoid PvP in circumstances where they still are doing combat activities. That's splitting hairs over "who you are fighting" not what type of game activity you are doing and ultimately if the opposing side has players on it you should be forced to fight them

Now you've gone and done it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm talking open conflict, where players are engaged in actual combat activities. I simply do not agree that someone should be able to avoid PvP in circumstances where they still are doing combat activities. That's splitting hairs over "who you are fighting" not what type of game activity you are doing and ultimately if the opposing side has players on it you should be forced to fight them

It's a PvE game with optional PvP. No-one can be forced to play in a game mode where PvP is possible.

Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion regarding what should or should not be the case. It should be noted that Frontier's stance on affecting Factions in any game mode has been quite clear for years now - since about the time Factions were introduced - and reiterated in the recent stream. The BGS belongs to all players, not just those who prefer PvP.

Avoiding opponents you think have an actual chance of beating you while actively working against them isn't making a game feature choice, it's just cowardice.

.... because playing a video game with pixel spaceships in the comfort of one's preferred gaming environment requires one to be oh so brave?

Nah.

 

[Winterwalker]

It's a PvE game with optional PvP. No-one can be forced to play in a game mode where PvP is possible.

Except you wouldn't be forced you can choose not to play powerplay .. just as you can choose not to explore, not to engage in combat. Mode is irrelevant usually but the difference is that PP becomes a more complete minigame in virtue of being played on a coherent playing field.

Regardless of PP activity, it is in the end Power versus Power (hey, that's PvP !!! hahahaha) but more, it's player groups versus player groups. "I choose to play, versus you, where you can't touch me," though, is just not coherent and the BGS is PvE so nobody's missing out.

 

[Slade Greymane]

Everyone has the same toolset available to them to attack or defend - however those who prefer PvP can't force others to engage in it - by design.

Care to elaborate on this and explain why the murder hobos not actual pvpers havent been delt with then?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Except you wouldn't be forced you can choose not to play powerplay .. just as you can choose not to explore, not to engage in combat.

All of these things are currently available in any game mode. Other players are an optional extra with respect to engaging in any game content.

The choice would be changed from "engage in Powerplay, or not" to "engage in PvP-gated Powerplay, or not." - which is not the same choice for players who eschew PvP in a game where PvP is entirely optional.

Mode is irrelevant usually but the difference is that PP becomes a more complete minigame in virtue of being played on a coherent single playing field.

Regardless of PP activity it is in the end Power versus Power (hey, that's PvP !!! hahahaha) but more, it's player groups versus player groups. "I choose to play, versus you, where you can't touch me," is just not coherent.

DBOBE responded in an AMA to a question on players in Solo / Private Groups affecting Powerplay - he seemed quite sanguine about it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Care to elaborate on this and explain why the murder hobos not actual pvpers havent been delt with then?

The fact that any player can choose to engage in any game content in whichever game mode they choose supports the contention that players cannot be forced to engage in PvP.

The modes are there for players to choose from - some choose poorly.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I think we've had this discussion several times before. As I've said most open only types I know (including myself) would be very much for it.

The issue as always then boils down to which servers data dictates the outcomes for lore/galaxy wide events, if we ever get that promise fulfilled.

Ah, but you are not OP, and apparently OP was totally unaware of all the previous discussions on topic, so it was specially for the OP's consideration

As for which dictates the outcome, well, for all i care, it could be the open only one, although the lack of players on that server might be an issue

 

[Winterwalker]

DBOBE responded in an AMA to a question on players in Solo / Private Groups affecting Powerplay - he seemed quite sanguine about it.

He's always sanguine though! Bless his ED socks.

On your gating point, yes it would be gated but it doesn't immediately correlate that powerplay wouldn't be a better mini-game if it was more focussed. There are probably arguments to say ganking could be cut down because you're given license to go hard without any dependence on where your nearest factor is or what the current political state ... I'm green, I see blue, rat-a-tat-tat. The BGS might then become even more the thinking man's game, and you can play that in solo.

Powerplay is just underdeveloped imo. For me these guys really should be the mafiosa.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Most of the others have probably got tired beating their head against a brick wall and left. I don't blame them.. I'm probably silly for continuing the debate with the same people over and over.

And if they made the BSG or PP open only, you'd just have a different demographic beating their head against a brick wall for the following two years or whatever until they left.

Its the general rule of software development (or almost anything), you can't please all the people all the time. For those who open only is a critical feature, they may leave. For those who bought the game based on the premise of parity between modes, should FD change that, some of them will leave.

In short, in order to please one demographic, FD would have to displease a demographic that is currently happy.

The main question becomes, do FD considering the risk worth it and would such a change bring an overall positive result? And are they ready to handle the threads from those who are displeased that will be "FD lied to us!"..... remember offlinegate?

It doesn't matter if you think the devs never promised mode parity in perpetuity, those threads will exist, and you can be sure some of the gaming press will pick up on it as well. FD need to be certain they would want to do such a thing and have the data or analyses that shows it would be a good thing overall.

 

[Robert Maynard]

On your gating point, yes it would be gated but it doesn't immediately correlate that powerplay wouldn't be a better mini-game if it was more focussed.

Better for some, worse for others. Can't please them all....