PvP FDL and why it needs serious attention.
- Thread starter Voracity_T
- Start date
Instead of nerfing the FDL, we should just buff everything else by giving them FDL lateral thrust capabilities.
Is this a good idea?
Who cares?
Right now, I’m imagining a Keelback dodging a volley of plasma because it suddenly has an unreasonable amount of lateral thrust, and it’s god damned beautiful.
Is this a good idea?
Who cares?
Right now, I’m imagining a Keelback dodging a volley of plasma because it suddenly has an unreasonable amount of lateral thrust, and it’s god damned beautiful.
It's 2nd best idea i saw on this forum, just after giving c4 hardpoint to asp scout
At least that's consistent with the earlier modus operandi
Again someone playing an entirely different game than I do ? FD have continuedly added shield hard counters, and buffed hulltanks over the last years.
Cascade rails deny SCB use. Plasmas ignore resistances by 60%. Big ships have to fear flechettes, which go right through the shields straight to the modules. Cascade torps can shoot the shield generator out cold, as can cascade mines.
Hulltanks have had the problem of modules getting shot out long before hull, but module reinforcements helped with that. Just recently all ships got 1-2 more small slots that are perfect to combine a heavy duty reinforced reactive armor with a thermal resist small HRP for new massive HP inflation and two digit positive resists.
Since the latest changes both my Mamba and my FdL have substantially higher hull than shield and still their dual SCBs. My Chieftain hulltank with small buffer BiWeave is hard as nails and a joy to fly.
In fact the forum has been full of complaints how much of bullet sponges the ships have now become.
There’s quite a few PvP builds that run a 5 plant to save weight.
My bi-ree Lance has one, and I’m running a bunch of LR beams and rails. I think it’s a size 5 guardian plant vs G4 overcharged 5.
My bi-ree Lance has one, and I’m running a bunch of LR beams and rails. I think it’s a size 5 guardian plant vs G4 overcharged 5.
The Replicated Man
T
Do you actively PvP? Take your hulltank to Shinrarta and fight a shield stacked FDL or Mamba and let me know how it goes.
And please take a video. I'd love to see that
With audio comments...
Changes to stealth, long range weaponry, rail APV, many experimental effects, etc have have a disproportionate impact on hull/module defenses, that, IMO, generally outweigh the augments to hull and module defenses.
Only if they hit you with enough shots in the spool up window, which is easier said than done, even against large ships.
A problem for all defenses, not just shields.
A combat oriented large ship, even one that is primarily shield focused, can essentially ignore flechettes because they are very slow, very vulnerable to PDTs, and do low amounts of kinetic damage which is easily resisted/mitigated.
Only if they hit you.
Not as much as long range weapons and the loss of effective stealth has harmed things.
Yep, this does plug a resistance gap. However it disproportionately favors smaller vessels and reduces practical variety, without doing much of anything to protect externals.
Hull is still important and hull focused, even shieldless, vessels can still be viable, but ton for ton and MJ for MJ, shields are a much more potent and comprehensive defense.
One of the only 1v1 I've lost in my Mamba, and by a wide margin no less, was against PeLucheuh's shieldless FAS. I suppose that's more of an exception than the rule though, as he's one of the best FAS pilots I've ever seen.
This thread makes me want to build another one
There are, mine included, however the tradeoff for running a OC powerplant is heat, which is a comprimise that almost forces less ToT due to the decreased efficiency, amost forcing a kinetic loadout, in turn making the damage output much more restrained and also forcing it to be governed by resistence based multipliers. Though I gather your build includes a Thermal Vent beam which is an effective counter to heat however it is still governed by resistance values thus further reducing the damage output of the ship, again a tradeoff for the high power Railguns. (Also governed by resistance damage)
As for counters vs shield vs hull..
Hull counters are more numerous by a vast margin.. Scramble, Emmisives, Missiles, Packhounds, Railguns, High Yeild (Even post nerf this still cakes modules SUPER fast), Corrosive and the fact that hull damage is permanent.
Shields regen, have what are essentially the option of health potions, and have three counters, Feedback (Which feels like it doesn't work effectively enough in the current build), Reverb Torpedos and Reverb Mines, both of which you are obscenely lucky to effectively strip a shield generator with, in fact against any experienced pilot you are more likely to screw yourself over than your opponent be it through having the Torpedos led round into your thrusters or just straight up wasting hardpoints.
Whilst I agree that HP overinflation is a huge problem it is somewhat justifyable for a large vessel to have near inpenetrable shielding, thats kind of the point of them. However a medium vessel that already has arguably the best hardpoint options, a boatload of speed and manuverability has no business having the capability to run shielding that is more comparable to the large ships than anything in its own weight class.
A C5 powerplant would go a very long way to stop the ridiculous bank tanks that seem to be the most popular build for the vessel and would allow other ships such as the FAS and Chieftan to sit much more comfortably within the meta.
Bi-Weave FDL pilots are often the ones getting the most out of the ship through pure skill, however the Prismatic vessels allow any pilot with any skill level to survive for a much longer time period than they should by al rights be able to. In a PvP environment the defining characteristic should be skill and skill alone, not a build that any monkey can throw together in five minutes in coriolis and get a good result out of.
There is one quite big elephant in the room for sure: HD shield boosters stack with no penalty whatsoever.
You might remember that we had two betas a while ago that experimented with diminishing returns on HD boosters similar to resistance boosters. The community echo was massively positive. It was canned with no reason whatsoever given why and never spoken about again.
I'd very much like to see that return, with the 3rd booster already seeing half efficiency and the 4th or more being basically useless.
You might remember that we had two betas a while ago that experimented with diminishing returns on HD boosters similar to resistance boosters. The community echo was massively positive. It was canned with no reason whatsoever given why and never spoken about again.
I'd very much like to see that return, with the 3rd booster already seeing half efficiency and the 4th or more being basically useless.
I usually run hot, plasma based builds. Unless someone is running thermal shock, I don’t think about it much.
This FDL I have now is a straight meme build, and I have more trouble with the distro getting absolutely brutalized than heat, honestly.
When it comes to considering plant efficiency, it’s usually just a big, sarcastic gesture from me, you know?
The toastiest build I’ve had was probably a Prismatic, all-PA Lance a couple of years ago. Even then, it was able to finish fights without completely catching on fire.
This FDL I have now is a straight meme build, and I have more trouble with the distro getting absolutely brutalized than heat, honestly.
When it comes to considering plant efficiency, it’s usually just a big, sarcastic gesture from me, you know?
The toastiest build I’ve had was probably a Prismatic, all-PA Lance a couple of years ago. Even then, it was able to finish fights without completely catching on fire.
Lol Bigmaec with the forum dunk.
C'mon man. With a few debatable exceptions (spec ops in CZ for example, toughest assassination missions) pretty much any G5 ship piloted decently can stomp on NPCs all day long.
I bet you also weren't running emissive+hounds
How are people (not referring to you Morbad) even debating this. Hulltanks have vulnerabilities that are ridiculously easy to use and their only counters are wasteful and barely effective (multiple ECM) or much harder to use than the vulnerability (SR toggle + top notch evasion). There is really no (reasonable) debate on this.
Sure fly hulltanks for fun, but might as well just wake from SC if you see hounds or even just a lot of seekers in the opponent's loadout.
The Replicated Man
T
Reeeing intensifiesI bet you also weren't running emissive+hounds
How are people (not referring to you Morbad) even debating this. Hulltanks have vulnerabilities that are ridiculously easy to use and their only counters are wasteful and barely effective (multiple ECM) or much harder to use than the vulnerability (SR toggle + top notch evasion). There is really no (reasonable) debate on this.
Sure fly hulltanks for fun, but might as well just wake from SC if you see hounds or even just a lot of seekers in the opponent's loadout.
Emissive seeker eee
That is just patently absurd. If I downgrade my FDL's PP to class 5 and do some PvE, will you accept you were wrong and change your mind? Or is your primary argument simply "I like my OP FDL"? Which is fine, but then just say that...
What ? If you're in a hulltank and you come up against something with seekers and emissive, say goodbye to your externals unless the opponent is garbage.
Not complaining, just the way it is. Meh.
Last week i unlocked hounds, i knew they were OP fighting them, but God, something prompted me to check DPS, not damage per shoot, and i see 60! 400% more than seekers, with rapid fire mod it will get to something like 800%. I could imagine what reaction would be if APA or imperial hammers have 400% more DPS than vanilla versions, yet some folks don't see problem with current anti seekers defence unbalance, and you don't really even need hounds, just 2 small seekers launchers do the job. But FD need to give those toys to npc's along with engineering to get attention from bigger crowd.