My issue with the sudden increase in cheaters/hackers...

[Agony_Aunt]

I don't doubt their passion, or competence IRL. They just appeared to lack both.

So, you are sure they are passionate and competent, you just think they don't appear it?

Okaaay...

 

[Stealthie]

So, you are sure they are passionate and competent, you just think they don't appear it?

Okaaay...

To be fair, I think the important thing is to satisfy customers that's the case.

I guess that's where the appearance of passion and competence can be more important than the reality.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

To be fair, I think the important thing is to satisfy customers that's the case.

I guess that's where the appearance of passion and competence can be more important than the reality.

Its a trade off. A quick fix is desirable by the community in general, but a quick fix, just like in real life, isn't always the best thing for the long term, even if it costs you some favour with your customers.

Dealing with hackers is like playing whack a mole, you might quickly patch one route of attack only to reveal another one, or for them to learn how you are detecting them, or anyway, they will just find another route of attack.

Sure, do it enough, and you might finally stop the hacks, for a few months, or maybe a year, or two. Its hard to make a game cheat proof though and most games suffer from cheats, especially online games.

 

[Schmack]

Its a trade off. A quick fix is desirable by the community in general, but a quick fix, just like in real life, isn't always the best thing for the long term, even if it costs you some favour with your customers.

Dealing with hackers is like playing whack a mole, you might quickly patch one route of attack only to reveal another one, or for them to learn how you are detecting them, or anyway, they will just find another route of attack.

Sure, do it enough, and you might finally stop the hacks, for a few months, or maybe a year, or two. Its hard to make a game cheat proof though and most games suffer from cheats, especially online games.

If you don't give the impression that you're trying to fix things, you soon won't have any customers to worry about.

 

[Stealthie]

Its a trade off. A quick fix is desirable by the community in general, but a quick fix, just like in real life, isn't always the best thing for the long term, even if it costs you some favour with your customers.

Dealing with hackers is like playing whack a mole, you might quickly patch one route of attack only to reveal another one, or for them to learn how you are detecting them, or anyway, they will just find another route of attack.

Uhuh.

I guess it's not something that we - the customers - should be terribly sympathetic with but, let's face it, FDev is selling an MMO here and so they're obviously going to be reluctant to draw a lot of attention to the fact that there are ways of cheating in it.
Added to which, as you say, if you make too much noise about what you're doing to prevent cheating then all you're doing is giving the cheats, and the people creating the trainers, a bigger opportunity to plan what they're going to do next.

The flip-side of that, of course, is that if you don't appear to be proactive in resolving the issue then you risk losing the trust - and, ultimately, the financial support - of existing players.

There's a line to be walked.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Uhuh.

I guess it's not something that we - the customers - should be terribly sympathetic with but, let's face it, FDev is selling an MMO here and so they're obviously going to be reluctant to draw a lot of attention to the fact that there are ways of cheating in it.
Added to which, as you say, if you make too much noise about what you're doing to prevent cheating then all you're doing is giving the cheats, and the people creating the trainers, a bigger opportunity to plan what they're going to do next.

The flip-side of that, of course, is that if you don't appear to be proactive in resolving the issue then you risk losing the trust - and, ultimately, the financial support - of existing players.

There's a line to be walked.

Indeed, and like others, i would like FD to be more communicative about it. But we see what happens when FD are more communicative. The detractors won't beleive them anyway. If FD say they are banning people, the detractors won't be satisfied until they see names.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

If you don't give the impression that you're trying to fix things, you soon won't have any customers to worry about.

Nah, you just won't have those customers who get their knickers in a twist over it.

EDIT: Actually, they will. Looking at some of the names ranting and raging about it, there are a lot of people who have been ranting and raging about things like this for years.

I think FD are perfectly safe keeping on doing what they are doing, even if its not the best strategy.

 

[Deareim]

OP : stop the drama, it is the game. Get a life.

 

[Phazon Xenomorph]

OP : stop the drama, it is the game. Get a life.

^probably a cheater since all his replies in cheating threads are "get a life" or "stop the drama". Wouldn't be surprised. Also wanting a fair chance at something is not "drama". That's almost as bad as Indigo's reply earlier in the thread suggesting I need therapy for wanting a game I already have a large amount of time in to give me a fair shot.

As for the others, the First Discovered tag is for people like me and many others who enjoy slapping a name on some virtual pixels, having a cheater make that race already lost is indeed my concern. I don't mind legit losing out, I care for when it's not remotely possible to win cause a cheater in the first place already took it.

 

[Rob At Work]

Some really talented people out there, surely from a business sense it would be better to get these hacker/programmer types on board rather than try and fight them.

 

[thistle]

Apparently from a Youtuber who covered about the cheating issue being rampant with Frontier seemingly doing nothing to stop them (Despite claims they are)...

Hmm.

 

[Midian Cabal]

I haven't see the slightest hint that the prevalence of cheating or hacking has appreciably increased, just an increase in awareness of both the positive (increased vigilance and calling out of Frontier's dubious countermeasures) and negative (paranoia, unfounded hackusations, FUD, etc) sort.

The only thing I can tell is that the public trainer is still fine and working as intended.

 

[Midian Cabal]

Ah, got it. So the devs don't care or are lazy or incompetent.

Of course, absoloutely 100% agree with you. The devs go into work every day, kick back, light up a cig, drink a beer or ten, then head home at lunchtime.

Seriously, if you are in the UK, go pay them a visit, go talk to them. Then see if you still have the same opinion.

No, their managers are lazy and incompetent, because obviously no one told developers to fix that .

 

[Ian Skippy]

If you can't get there under any means, then who cares if someone else does?

Seriously, think about this - here is a place no one can go, yet someone manages to by some illicit means. Does this prevent you from enjoying the game? Does this prohibit you from going to all the places you can get to legitimately?

If this is the sort of thing you're loosing sleep over, you've got a "You Problem". If you're that bothered by someone else having something you don't, you have a "You Problem".

Therapy is highly suggested in this case. All this worrying about what other people do... I just don't get it.

You don't need therapy when you don't like to play with cheaters on general principle.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

No, their managers are lazy and incompetent, because obviously no one told developers to fix that poopooe.

And how do you know the managers never told them to fix it?

Now, i know you will be tempted to respond, because there is no fix yet, but think about that for a little bit please, because telling someone to make a fix and producing a fix, and how they handle the release of the fix, are quite different things.

I would suggest you have just invented that in your own head that the managers have not been looking into the issue with their devs.

The simple reason is, we don't know exactly what they are doing and how they are approaching the problem.

The last time there was a major problem with cheats, we had exactly the same thing. Months of people grabbing their pitchfoks, then FD got a fix, released it, and did a ban wave. They then played a game of cat and mouse with the hackers for quite a few months until the hackers decided to remove their public releases and hide themselves away. Now they are back with another hack and its likely we will see the same pattern. A fix, a game of cat and mouse, ban waves, and then a period of quiet while the hackers prepare a different cheat.

If you are going to declare the devs/managers incompetent every time there is another hack released, then you might as well just quit the game, because who wants to play a game where the devs/managers are soooo bad!?

Or you can just accept that FD are most likely working on it, and eventually they will fix it, until the next hack is released.

At a very minimum, you're going to have to permanently keep your pitchfork on standby, because even when they fix this, there will be another hack, and another, and another, as long as there are hackers willing to hack the game.

 

[npcole]

I've not logged into the game since the cheating scandal broke. It wasn't a conscious choice exactly, but until this is dealt with then I find it hard to have enthusiasm. I love the game...but until there is a solution, I just can't summon the energy. I find it too depressing.

Kill the cheating so we can all live in the same universe by the same rules again.

 

[Midian Cabal]

And how do you know the managers never told them to fix it?

Now, i know you will be tempted to respond, because there is no fix yet, but think about that for a little bit please, because telling someone to make a fix and producing a fix, and how they handle the release of the fix, are quite different things.

I would suggest you have just invented that in your own head that the managers have not been looking into the issue with their devs.

The simple reason is, we don't know exactly what they are doing and how they are approaching the problem.

The last time there was a major problem with cheats, we had exactly the same thing. Months of people grabbing their pitchfoks, then FD got a fix, released it, and did a ban wave. They then played a game of cat and mouse with the hackers for quite a few months until the hackers decided to remove their public releases and hide themselves away. Now they are back with another hack and its likely we will see the same pattern. A fix, a game of cat and mouse, ban waves, and then a period of quiet while the hackers prepare a different cheat.

If you are going to declare the devs/managers incompetent every time there is another hack released, then you might as well just quit the game, because who wants to play a game where the devs/managers are soooo bad!?

Or you can just accept that FD are most likely working on it, and eventually they will fix it, until the next hack is released.

At a very minimum, you're going to have to permanently keep your pitchfork on standby, because even when they fix this, there will be another hack, and another, and another, as long as there are hackers willing to hack the game.

Are you a software developer? I am not pulling things out of my backside, I am speaking from experience. I know damn well where potential and actual problems in my code are, but if my manager tells me to do X instead of Y, then I will do X instead of Y, even if customers are complaining A LOT about Y.

One more thing: managers are always to blame. Always. Because they can delegate everything, expect one thing: responsibility.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Are you a software developer? I am not pulling things out of my backside, I am speaking from experience. I know damn well where potential and actual problems in my code are, but if my manager tells me to do X instead of Y, then I will do X instead of Y, even if customers are complaining A LOT about Y.

One more thing: managers are always to blame. Always. Because they can delegate everything, expect one thing: responsibility.

I have been a software developer, a project manager, and a division head. I spent the last 10 years working in a software development company. So, i have a little bit of experience in the matter.

Sure, the buck stops with managers, no issue with that. But you seem to be thinking that management should be saying "Fix this now" rather than what might be the approach is "Ok, let's invesigate fixes, let's the cheaters have their fun while we collect data and work on a fix that will hopefully work better than a quick fix for the long term"

I have worked in teams, especially those under pressure, where quick fixes were the only possible solution, and they always caused more problems later.

I'm not saying i'm happy with FD taking a long time to fix this, i'm saying i can understand why they may be taking a long time to fix it. I'm also not making grand proclomations that they are doing nothing based on nothing except gut feeling. I do doubt strongly they are doing nothing, because doing nothing would make no sense on any level.

 

[Midian Cabal]

I have been a software developer, a project manager, and a division head. I spent the last 10 years working in a software development company. So, i have a little bit of experience in the matter.

Sure, the buck stops with managers, no issue with that. But you seem to be thinking that management should be saying "Fix this now" rather than what might be the approach is "Ok, let's invesigate fixes, let's the cheaters have their fun while we collect data and work on a fix that will hopefully work better than a quick fix for the long term"

I have worked in teams, especially those under pressure, where quick fixes were the only possible solution, and they always caused more problems later.

I'm not saying i'm happy with FD taking a long time to fix this, i'm saying i can understand why they may be taking a long time to fix it. I'm also not making grand proclomations that they are doing nothing based on nothing except gut feeling. I do doubt strongly they are doing nothing, because doing nothing would make no sense on any level.

Excellent, glad to hear that you know what happens behind the curtain.
As you said it yourself, quick fixes and workarounds are sometimes needed, until the investigation is done and a proper solution is found.

One of my professors used to say: "If you can't understand something, you have to accept it".
I have no idea why FD aren't doing anything, but they aren't. (With the exception of sporadic bans.) The publicly available trainer still works without any problems, and I can only guess that the other one that's not so easily available still works as well.

Based on their record history (banning for combat logging), I don't see that anything has changed. FD will change things only when they are absolutely forced to.

Judging by your professional experience, I guess that you are aware that different companies have different cultures. And corporate culture is very, very difficult to change.

 

[Stealthie]

I've not logged into the game since the cheating scandal broke. It wasn't a conscious choice exactly, but until this is dealt with then I find it hard to have enthusiasm. I love the game...but until there is a solution, I just can't summon the energy. I find it too depressing.

See, that's where my style of playing ED reaps rewards.

Basically, I stick to Solo or PGs when I'm doing "important" stuff - which is to say, stuff where it'd irk me if I got interrupted and had to start again - and I play in Open when I'm just pottering around, doing stuff for the lulz.

AFAIK, I've probably only witnessed cheating once, and that was seeing somebody zip around ShinDes at warp-speed in SC, and if I did I'd probably chalk it up as an "interesting experience" rather than a game-breaking problem.

I gotta say, it does irk me that somebody might be using cheats to gain crazy amounts of credits or jump around the galaxy getting discoveries but there's nothing I can do about that, and it doesn't have any immediate effect on my game-experience, so I just carry on doing what I want to do.