Question for Frontier

[J 2 da BONE]

I posted this on Reddit but didn’t get a reply, so thought I would post it here as well:

There have been a few highly-requested changes, such as increasing the herbivores’ combat stats so they are closer to the carnivores, or changing allosaurus so it’s not the strongest non-hybrid carnivore. Most recently, the pachycephalosaurids have been given the ability to fight, but have retained their pre-update stats (0 for defence). Additionally, pachycephalosaurus, the largest of the pachycephalosaurids, has the lowest combat stats for some reason.

With the current imbalance between the herbivores and carnivores, I can see that being done on purpose (even though I don’t agree with it personally), but the other examples of allosaurus and the pachycephalosaurids seem like oversights.

So my question is, are you unable to change the stats without affecting people’s saves? Changing the numbers seems like something that would be an easy fix (granted I’m not a game developer). The only reason I can see that some of these things haven’t changed are the technical limitations which you have mentioned previously.

PS - this is not an attack or a complaint, I’m just genuinely curious to know if you’re planning on changing any of these things at some point, if you have no current plans, or if you physically can’t change them.

 

[Hykelion]

Although this is just a game, A herbivores' primary response against predators would be to flee.
Primary response is flee, Alternate response is defend thy self as a last option. This is evident since there's an option in Sandbox that allows herbivores to initiate fights.
Additionally though, there's no need to up the combat stats of every herbivore, considering only a few herbivores species have combat animations.
Dino Families w/ combat animations:
1.Pachycephalosaurids
2.Cerotopsids
3.Ankylosaurs
4.Stegosaurs
5.Iguanodon
*Might have missed a few.

So yeah, IMO, there's no real need to up their combat stats.

 

[J 2 da BONE]

Although this is just a game, A herbivores' primary response against predators would be to flee.
Primary response is flee, Alternate response is defend thy self as a last option. This is evident since there's an option in Sandbox that allows herbivores to initiate fights.
Additionally though, there's no need to up the combat stats of every herbivore, considering only a few herbivores species have combat animations.
Dino Families w/ combat animations:
1.Pachycephalosaurids
2.Cerotopsids
3.Ankylosaurs
4.Stegosaurs
5.Iguanodon
*Might have missed a few.

So yeah, IMO, there's no real need to up their combat stats.

So you think it’s right that a baryonyx can kill a triceratops?

 

[Lelka]

So my question is, are you unable to change the stats without affecting people’s saves? Changing the numbers seems like something that would be an easy fix (granted I’m not a game developer). The only reason I can see that some of these things haven’t changed are the technical limitations which you have mentioned previously.

What's the real point if the stats are changed but it didn't affect saves? I think it would only make saved game file conflict with updated game...

 

[Hykelion]

So you think it’s right that a baryonyx can kill a triceratops?

Baryonyx vs Trike matchup can go either way. There's a hidden dice roll which decides which dino gets to attack. Some chances a Baryonyx wins, some chances the Trike wins. Not to mention, there's the combat stats between each dino you need to factor in: Attack & Defense.
A high attack modified Baryonyx can defeat a Trike, & vise versa. It partly depends on how each dino is modified.

 

[J 2 da BONE]

What's the real point if the stats are changed but it didn't affect saves? I think it would only make saved game file conflict with updated game...

By ‘affecting people’s saves’, I mean in a negative way like people losing their save games (I hope that’s what you were asking me anyway). Similar to how they said that was the reason for not adding sand on Nublar sandbox.

“I think it would only make saved game file conflict with updated game...” - what do you mean?

 

[Hykelion]

I don't think changing the combat stats would affect the save files, considering we've been having patches & fixes to the game.
However, I don't there's a need for changing the current combat stat for herbivores. Especially since we can already change those with the gene modifications.

 

[J 2 da BONE]

Baryonyx vs Trike matchup can go either way. There's a hidden dice roll which decides which dino gets to attack. Some chances a Baryonyx wins, some chances the Trike wins. Not to mention, there's the combat stats between each dino you need to factor in: Attack & Defense.
A high attack modified Baryonyx can defeat a Trike, & vise versa. It partly depends on how each dino is modified.

You’re wrong there (I’m not saying that to be argumentative), there’s no random element at all. The dinosaur with the higher combined attack and defence stats wins 100% of the time if both are at full health. This is the case even if the difference in total stats is 1, like a rex vs spino. Rex’s total combat stats = 139, spino’s = 138... rex wins 100% of the time if both are starting the fight with full health. You can test this yourself if you want. Put a baryonyx and a triceratops in an enclosure together alone (base stats), and see what happens every single time. Same with rex and spino (they will each go to low health, spino slightly lower, then spino will run away, they will come together again in a couple of minutes and the rex will finish off the spino). It’s very predictable actually. Also, this post is about base stats, so modifications are not what’s being discussed. I would love it if there was a random element to it, but there isn’t.

 

[Hykelion]

And how many battles have you made your Rex do against a Spino?

 

[J 2 da BONE]

I don't think changing the combat stats would affect the save files, considering we've been having patches & fixes to the game.
However, I don't there's a need for changing the current combat stat for herbivores. Especially since we can already change those with the gene modifications.

This thread is not about modifications, it’s about balancing the base stats so they represent the actual dinosaurs better. Technically, if we are talking modifications, a triceratops has less mod slots than a metriacnthosaurus, for example, and is also weaker at base level... so... there goes that argument.

If anything, if you wanted a metri to be able to take down a triceratops you should have to modify the metri, not have to modify the trike to prevent it getting slaughtered by an animal that a trike wouldn’t even see as a threat in reality! It’s like a cheetah trying to take down an elephant. Imagine if this game was real animals, and you saw cheetahs taking down elephants 100% of the time in a one-on-one fight. Hopefully that puts it into perspective what I’m talking about here.

 

[J 2 da BONE]

And how many battles have you made your Rex do against a Spino?

Many times, but I don’t keep an exact count of that sort of thing if that’s what you’re asking haha

 

[Alan_Grady]

Although this is just a game, A herbivores' primary response against predators would be to flee.
Primary response is flee, Alternate response is defend thy self as a last option.

So you think it’s right that a baryonyx can kill a triceratops?

I agree with both statements, and I think the main problem overall keeps being the absolute lack of dinosaur AI in the base game.

I understand the game was initially designed to be some kind of Pokemon or Ludia-style thing for creating monsters of every kind so people had fun watching them fight. Both the stats and trait-genes systems seem to support this. Funny it didn't convince anyone in the end.

So, yes, herbivore's primary response would be fear/flee and that's what they should do everytime a perceived threat is nearby. Problem is, just like dinosaur sizes are messed up, dino genuses are also messed up. To be fair, and in favour of FD, I'd say their recent mechanic of paleobotany feeding might be a step in the right direction but because of the way in which that was implemented, we can but wait and see.

Anyway, the whole range or herbivores is to also be taken into account when presetting the 'primary response': just like Sauropods have no primary response at all, most of them having no predators, others are not suited for the 'running for it'. So, armored herbivores such as trikes, stegos, ankys and pachys can have a chose between fight & flight. And that options is not an easy one: in nature, flight would be the primary for all, but sometimes the threat is not perceived as such (i.e. if the carnivore is of similar size or smaller), there might not be way out (cornered animals resort then to fight, and in quite a desperate and berserkr way) or there may be some reason for them to stay and fight (mainly, offspring, but this neither is nor will likely be an issue to JWE sadly).

And, of course, the other side is also to be attended too: every carnivore has a prefered kind of prey and pretty much all of them always go for a) no-need-to-hunt/pursue, that is, corpses and some other carnivore's preys, b) younger, older or otherwise weaker animals, so as to have the higher chance of success. With the recent fix to Spinosaurid's diet, it would be cool if the next dinosaur AI improvements included an revision for all:

• Spinosaurids should stick to fish and already dead preys, resorting to hunt dawn smaller herbivores only when severely hungry and no other option.
• Tyrannosauridae, Acrocanthosauridae and Carcharodontosauridae would rather like bigger and heavier preys such as hadrosaurids.
• Dromaeosauridae, I think, should have a liking for smaller preys such as Ornithomimidae and the like, specially when not within pack range, but if pack-hunting is ever implemented, hadrosauridae and other big 'easy' preys should be prefered.

And so on. You get the point. In fact, I'm thinking that now herbivores got some love (not enough, as they should have been given grazing, in my opinion, and the paleobotany elements made into decorations) a similar carnivore rework would be nice.

 

[J 2 da BONE]

I agree with both statements, and I think the main problem overall keeps being the absolute lack of dinosaur AI in the base game.

I understand the game was initially designed to be some kind of Pokemon or Ludia-style thing for creating monsters of every kind so people had fun watching them fight. Both the stats and trait-genes systems seem to support this. Funny it didn't convince anyone in the end.

So, yes, herbivore's primary response would be fear/flee and that's what they should do everytime a perceived threat is nearby. Problem is, just like dinosaur sizes are messed up, dino genuses are also messed up. To be fair, and in favour of FD, I'd say their recent mechanic of paleobotany feeding might be a step in the right direction but because of the way in which that was implemented, we can but wait and see.

Anyway, the whole range or herbivores is to also be taken into account when presetting the 'primary response': just like Sauropods have no primary response at all, most of them having no predators, others are not suited for the 'running for it'. So, armored herbivores such as trikes, stegos, ankys and pachys can have a chose between fight & flight. And that options is not an easy one: in nature, flight would be the primary for all, but sometimes the threat is not perceived as such (i.e. if the carnivore is of similar size or smaller), there might not be way out (cornered animals resort then to fight, and in quite a desperate and berserkr way) or there may be some reason for them to stay and fight (mainly, offspring, but this neither is nor will likely be an issue to JWE sadly).

And, of course, the other side is also to be attended too: every carnivore has a prefered kind of prey and pretty much all of them always go for a) no-need-to-hunt/pursue, that is, corpses and some other carnivore's preys, b) younger, older or otherwise weaker animals, so as to have the higher chance of success. With the recent fix to Spinosaurid's diet, it would be cool if the next dinosaur AI improvements included an revision for all:

• Spinosaurids should stick to fish and already dead preys, resorting to hunt dawn smaller herbivores only when severely hungry and no other option.
• Tyrannosauridae, Acrocanthosauridae and Carcharodontosauridae would rather like bigger and heavier preys such as hadrosaurids.
• Dromaeosauridae, I think, should have a liking for smaller preys such as Ornithomimidae and the like, specially when not within pack range, but if pack-hunting is ever implemented, hadrosauridae and other big 'easy' preys should be prefered.

And so on. You get the point. In fact, I'm thinking that now herbivores got some love (not enough, as they should have been given grazing, in my opinion, and the paleobotany elements made into decorations) a similar carnivore rework would be nice.

Good points, and I agree that each type of herbivore should have different fight/flight conditions. I think the large armoured herbivores would not bother running away, because 1) they’re too slow to evade the predators of their time 2) they would make themselves much easier targets (trike’s whole defense is its head) and 3) they’re designed to fight back. They should stand and try to intimidate the carnivores to scare them off if anything. The smaller armoured herbivores (kentrosaurus and the like) would definitely run from something as large as a rex, but should try the same intimidation method against smaller carnivores.

Going back to my original point though, if a medium-large carnivore did have the balls to fight a large armoured herbivore, it should be a likely outcome that the armoured herbivore comes out on top. I am fine with the largest carnivores in the game having higher stats (rex, giga etc. even though some of those could be argued against as well), but it’s beyond ridiculous that the likes of baryonyx, ceratosaurus etc. are all stronger than every large armoured herbivore. They should at the very least increase the stats of triceratops, stegosaurus and ankylosaurus (the largest armoured herbivores) so they are at a higher base level than these medium-sized carnivores.

 

[Alan_Grady]

Good points, and I agree that each type of herbivore should have different fight/flight conditions. I think the large armoured herbivores would not bother running away, because 1) they’re too slow to evade the predators of their time 2) they would make themselves much easier targets (trike’s whole defense is its head) and 3) they’re designed to fight back. They should stand and try to intimidate the carnivores to scare them off if anything. The smaller armoured herbivores (kentrosaurus and the like) would definitely run from something as large as a rex, but should try the same intimidation method against smaller carnivores.

Going back to my original point though, if a medium-large carnivore did have the balls to fight a large armoured herbivore, it should be a likely outcome that the armoured herbivore comes out on top. I am fine with the largest carnivores in the game having higher stats (rex, giga etc. even though some of those could be argued against as well), but it’s beyond ridiculous that the likes of baryonyx, ceratosaurus etc. are all stronger than every large armoured herbivore. They should at the very least increase the stats of triceratops, stegosaurus and ankylosaurus (the largest armoured herbivores) so they are at a higher base level than these medium-sized carnivores.

Running should be still the primary answer for armoured herbivores when confronted with equal-sized or bigger carnivores, unless they find themselves within a herd. I know this seems to put them into a position of advantage but most contemporary herbivores suited with means of defense are more likely to do the same. As I've said, it is all a question of the perceived threat the predator poses to them and that, I think, should be implemented more with regard to the two species size and weight difference; trait genes, however, could play a nice point tunning the system, particularly if such things as "aggressive instincts" are to be something more than a nametag.

I completely agree about the second point, though. I once tried to make an enclosure with both Metriacanthosaurus and Stegosaurus and couldn't really believe a single Metria could take down so many stegos. These are not only armoured herbivores, and one of the best suited to attack, but they also live in herds/families. Even if a predator the size of Metria made an appear freaking them all out, I'm sure at least the targeted prey would have defended herself quite more succesfully.

 

[pixelrobot]

id like to see herbivores run by default too - as a herd - maybe have older dinos run slower.

 

[LordTrilobite]

Animals don't run unless needed. It expends energy.

 

[pixelrobot]

from predators... i would have thought that was obvious given the context of the thread.

 

[LordTrilobite]

from predators... i would have thought that was obvious given the context of the thread.

Don't they already do that? When the herbivores panic they run away.

 

[pixelrobot]

somewhat, they dont really flee as a group though, they just scatter after one is auto locked into the death animation. There's no real "flee on sight" mechanic.

 

[J 2 da BONE]

somewhat, they dont really flee as a group though, they just scatter after one is auto locked into the death animation. There's no real "flee on sight" mechanic.
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Don't they already do that? When the herbivores panic they run away.

Herbivores do already run (from every carnivore, regardless of threat). If you’ve ever seen a herd of elephants when a pride of lions walks past, you would know that running away is not the first instinct of every herbivore in nature. Elephants will act aggressively, spread their ears out to look bigger, trumpet loudly to scare the lions, and even charge at them. The same can be said for rhinos, cape buffalos etc. Buffalos even go on the offensive to actively attack lions occasionally. Granted they do also run away in scenarios where they are caught off guard, but often turn back around and fight back once they realise what’s going on.

These comments aren’t really relevant to the post though (let’s try to stay on track). What are your opinions on the combat stats?