Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[-VR- Max Factor]

This isn't a binary consideration. There isn't just not caring about time at all and needing to be in a hurry with nothing in between.

Never said there wasn't. The only reason to grind though is to get the stuff quickly.

What part doesn't make sense? What does "home" have to do with anything?

I have to assume English isn't your native language. I was basically asking what all of that meant is made little sense.

And I've stated why I do.
But you've been saying, "no you don't because:

• you don't have to use the system"
• you could just do things (which I've now explicitly said I don't enjoy) to get around it"
• you must be in too much of a hurry because you're actually considering the time"

That is not what I have been saying. If English isn't your first language it must a translation issue.

And as stated, those just don't do it for me. Best time in the dune buggy was guardian sites and even that wore thin after a while of looking for data patterns to finish blueprints.

That's fine. If you don't enjoy the activities, you don't enjoy them.

So to get those, I need to go get those specifically.

Yup, that doesn't make it grind though.

You can make a soul level one run in a Dark Souls game. That doesn't invalidate the tools and balance that goes into the level up system. Same here. There are things that are notably more effective with better tools. And we're free to criticize when the methods drag out the process. Yes, it's going to be somewhat subjective, it's also something where one subjective quality doesn't actually invalidate another. And the choice to not seek upgrades on one person's part shouldn't invalidate the view of people who have to seek mats because their regular play doesn't provide them.

Not sure what that has to do with grind.

Stealthie came in and commented on the process and you countered saying, "it takes very little time." dxm55 commented on their experience which you dismissed as well. I commented on my experience with surface mats, you've so far responded as I summarized above. Every time someone gives feedback you've got something to say about how your method is better or how "it's not a race" or "you don't have this issue if you don't G5 in one go" or some other dismissive response to something no one is saying.

To get G1-3 upgrades, it does take no time. Getting G5s will taken longer. That is not in dispute.

I mean, if other people don't have the mats they're clearly not playing as you would even outside of the grind so why would you expect your method to fall into their preferences? I get that you go driving on the surface for whatever. Do you think telling me you do that rather than grinding prospecting spots once in a while helps my experience by having me trapped longer in that thing for less?

I don't expect anything. You seem to be taking what I am writing and coming to some bizarre conclusion which is not logical. I am finding this conversation one of the most bizarre I have had on this forum. It's like you are desperately trying to prove your own misunderstanding to be correct. You keep assuming and jumping to the wrong conclusion.

 

[space voyager]

Better late than never... I too like engineering. I'd love to see the the system expanded with say exploration finds.

 

[Brrokk]

Well, at least the thread title has been answered. The answer is "yes". I'd say it's about 50% for and 50% against.

 

[House0fDerp]

Never said there wasn't. The only reason to grind though is to get the stuff quickly.

Or at all, I call spending a few hours filling up on surface mats a grind. I usually hit a few geo spots when I need something to make sure I'm not short of that thing for a while. It's a grind for me, it's be more of a grind if I did it each time I needed something. It's much better than it was prior though.

That said I allowed myself to get distracted, I'm just going to ask how this statement you just made comes across to you as logically consistent with this one:

I don't care about time scale. What has time scale got to do anything. Again, I ask, what is the rush in engineering your ship?

Because I don't get it. That or "quickly" is an arbitrary marker we're defining very differently.

I have to assume English isn't your native language. I was basically asking what all of that meant is made little sense.

And I asked what part didn't make sense. For someone who's picking on someone else' English that shouldn't be hard to get. And I'm still confused as to what home has to do with anything there.

That is not what I have been saying. If English isn't your first language it must a translation issue.

It has nothing to do with translation and everything to do with what you're saying. Your constantly saying that by only upgrading as you have mats, which is not engaging in engineering beyond what you come across, engineering is fine. Your own stated results suggest otherwise. Engineering came out 3 years ago. You have yet to fully engineer a ship. That means we're dealing with a 3 year + timeframe for your methodology. Maybe it's a difference in perception between those playing this like it's their one and only game and those who want to use the systems to their fullest without a commitment that outlast most marriages I've seen.

That's fine. If you don't enjoy the activities, you don't enjoy them.

Yup, that doesn't make it grind though.

Not sure what that has to do with grind.

Repetitive act that I don't enjoy because of a need for the mats and lack of viable alternative isn't a grind?

To get G1-3 upgrades, it does take no time. Getting G5s will taken longer. That is not in dispute.

I'm not sure what the comparative time has to do with your dismissal of their opinions.

I don't expect anything. You seem to be taking what I am writing and coming to some bizarre conclusion which is not logical. I am finding this conversation one of the most bizarre I have had on this forum. It's like you are desperately trying to prove your own misunderstanding to be correct. You keep assuming and jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I'm reading what you're writing. Sometimes directly saying peoples concerns are unfounded, timeframes are fine when they say they aren't or that processes could be improved or other times telling people things are fine because you personally play in a way that picks up whatever, all the while stating that you haven't actually finished a ship in 3 years.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Or at all, I call spending a few hours filling up on surface mats a grind. I usually hit a few geo spots when I need something to make sure I'm not short of that thing for a while. It's a grind for me, it's be more of a grind if I did it each time I needed something. It's much better than it was prior though.

Yup I'm sure it is. Grind generally is subjective, but anything can become a grind, even the best mechanic ever made if you do it too much.

And I asked what part didn't make sense. For someone who's picking on someone else' English that shouldn't be hard to get. And I'm still confused as to what home has to do with anything there.

The whole think didn't make sense. Also "when it's at home" is a saying, an expression.

It has nothing to do with translation and everything to do with what you're saying. Your constantly saying that by only upgrading as you have mats, which is not engaging in engineering beyond what you come across, engineering is fine. Your own stated results suggest otherwise. Engineering came out 3 years ago. You have yet to fully engineer a ship. That means we're dealing with a 3 year + timeframe for your methodology. Maybe it's a difference in perception between those playing this like it's their one and only game and those who want to use the systems to their fullest without a commitment that outlast most marriages I've seen.

What is wrong with my own stated results. They are perfectly good to me.

Repetitive act that I don't enjoy because of a need for the mats and lack of viable alternative isn't a grind?

As I said. No body needs those upgrades. You choose to engage in engineer's, you choose to grind for mats. Engineer's are a choice, and you choose to do it. That is all I have been saying.

I'm not sure what the comparative time has to do with your dismissal of their opinions.

I haven't dismissed any opinions. Please can you stop making stuff up.

I'm reading what you're writing. Sometimes directly saying peoples concerns are unfounded, timeframes are fine when they say they aren't or that processes could be improved or other times telling people things are fine because you personally play in a way that picks up whatever, all the while stating that you haven't actually finished a ship in 3 years.

I have not said anything is unfounded. I state either facts or my own subjective opinion. I don't crap on other peoples subjective opinion. That seems to be what you are doing with me though.

My ships are finished. But I may upgrade them later if I so wish.

 

[sewerratuk]

Seriously guys, you need to get a room and continue the flirting there

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Seriously guys, you need to get a room and continue the flirting there

Would be better if he just understood what I was saying instead making crap up. But that seems to be the forum way.

 

[House0fDerp]

Yup I'm sure it is. Grind generally is subjective, but anything can become a grind, even the best mechanic ever made if you do it too much.

If it's required that much it might be worth looking at that requirement and the details surrounding it.

The whole think didn't make sense. Also "when it's at home" is a saying, an expression.

Not a saying I'm familiar with and it threw me off. Hence why I asked about it twice.

What is wrong with my own stated results. They are perfectly good to me.

Wrong with them? Nothing. I'm questioning their presentation as usable in the face of those who actually want to use the system to it's fullest when you clearly have no interest in that.

As I said. No body needs those upgrades. You choose to engage in engineer's, you choose to grind for mats. Engineer's are a choice, and you choose to do it. That is all I have been saying.

And I think games should be designed to be played with fully rather than partially ignored. Need shouldn't even be a consideration. At best it's a poor excuse.

I haven't dismissed any opinions. Please can you stop making stuff up.

Yes, you have. I've listed examples.

I have not said anything is unfounded. I state either facts or my own subjective opinion. I don't crap on other peoples subjective opinion. That seems to be what you are doing with me though.

My ships are finished. But I may upgrade them later if I so wish.

When people say the process is to grindy or timeframes could be improved and your reply is "well it isn't for me" it's dismissive of their opinions. I get that you might not mean it that way, but it certainly doesn't seem particularly helpful when your reply to "I struggle to see why certain aspects of it (things like collecting HGEs) are so tedious" with "The act of engineering at the engineers or at the mobile mod shop, is neither here nor there as it takes very little time, unless of course you decide grind out mats and then grind out G1-5 on every module at the same time." It looks very much like you just constructed a particular act to argue against as the basis of dismissing complaints about tedium.

Would be better if he just understood what I was saying instead making crap up. But that seems to be the forum way.

I've on several occasion pointed right to what you were saying at times with quotes. Interesting how you seem to brush those aside so often.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

If it's required that much it might be worth looking at that requirement.

It's not required that much though in ED. It's a choice.

Not a saying I'm familiar with and it threw me off. Hence why I asked about it twice.

Sorry. Google it.

Wrong with them? Nothing. I'm questioning their presentation as usable in the face of those who actually want to use the system to it's fullest when you clearly have no interest in that.

What do you mean to its fullest? What its fullest is is subjective. That's the point.

And I think games should be designed to be played with fully rather than partially ignored. Need shouldn't even be a consideration. At best it's a poor excuse.

I prefer games to give me choices. I have played games like what you describe my entire long life. ED is a breath of fresh air. Something different.

Yes, you have. I've listed examples.

They are not dismissive of others opinions. They are different opinions and and a different methodology which people may not have considered. Nothing about those posts were dismissive. You are seeing stuff that just isn't there. It's getting tiring.

When people say the process is to grindy or timeframes could be improved and your reply is "well it isn't for me" it's dismissive of their opinions. I get that you might not mean it that way, but it certainly doesn't seem particularly helpful when your reply to "I struggle to see why certain aspects of it (things like collecting HGEs) are so tedious" with "The act of engineering at the engineers or at the mobile mod shop, is neither here nor there as it takes very little time, unless of course you decide grind out mats and then grind out G1-5 on every module at the same time." It looks very much like you just constructed a particular act to argue against as the basis of dismissing tedium.

Not it is not dismissive. It's a difference of opinion. Maybe you are allowed to have yours but I'm not allowed to have mine. What is it?

I've on several occasion pointed right to what you were saying at times with quotes. Interesting how you seem to miss addressing those so often.

Because they are not what you think they are. I dismiss them because they were irrelevant.

 

[House0fDerp]

Seriously guys, you need to get a room and continue the flirting there

There's a forum full of every other thread that isn't this one if you aren't interested in what's going on here.

 

[sewerratuk]

There's a forum full of every other thread that isn't this one if you aren't interested in what's going on here.

You are quite touchy aren't you. I'm scanning various threads for interesting info so I'll keep dropping by

 

[House0fDerp]

It's not required that much though in ED. It's a choice.

It not being a requirement doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be criticized. It being a choice doesn't excuse it being a potentially bad choice in terms of enjoyment.

What do you mean to its fullest? What its fullest is is subjective. That's the point.

No, it's fullest isn't subjective. There are clear peaks for every upgrade, some might be subjectively better, but each has an objective end point.

I prefer games to give me choices. I have played games like what you describe my entire long life. ED is a breath of fresh air. Something different.

I'm not even sure what you think I'm describing because designing mechanics with gameplay enjoyment in mind for engaging them directly is wholly independent of choice.

They are dismissive of others opinions. They are different opinions and and a different methodology which people may not have considered. Nothing about those posts were dismissive. You are seeing stuff that just isn't there. It's getting tiring.

I just showed an example and explained how it was.

Not it is not dismissive. It's a difference of opinion. Maybe you are allowed to have yours but I'm not allowed to have mine. What is it?

I can't keep you from having an opinion. I haven't said a word to the people coming in and saying they find it fun who aren't responding to people who said it isn't for them and suggesting the reason has to do with needing to go all G1 to G5 in one go. If someone likes HGE hunting more power to them.

Because they are not what you think they are. I dismiss them because they were irrelevant.

They are exactly what I said they were in plain English.

You are quite touchy aren't you. I'm scanning various threads for interesting info so I'll keep dropping by

Why do people come and drop snippy one liners and accuse others of being touchy if they get the same in return?

 

[Scubadog]

I think the idea that "a game should be designed to be played fully" is just ridiculous. It makes me believe people with this attitude really don't understand what games like ED are. Have you ever used SecondLife? It's much less a game than it is a virtual existence. And, in SL, there are limitless areas that you may never go to and limitless facilities you may never choose to engage. Why? Because in many respects it emulates REAL life. Do you "play" everything in real life? Doubtful. I'm a scuba diver. I "play" a part of real life that only about 1-2% of the entire WORLD ever "plays". That requires me to get trained, buy gear, learn to use the gear, enhance the gear and then go experience it.

Elite Dangerous is MUCH more like that. If all you do is see this as a game, then I'm afraid you completely miss the point. There is a reason why there is a healthy and growing lore ("history") to this virtual existence. There's a reason why commanders get so wrapped up in their ED personas, including yours truly. I can take you through just about any aspect of ED and draw you a parallel to something in real life. You don't "win" ED. There is no "endgame" to it. You are "born", you grow and learn, you do work and acquire things and have a career...or two or three. You interact socially with others to whatever you choose--just like in real life. You learn from each other. YOU decide how fulfilling your virtual life in ED is. That includes engineering.

I drive 2013 Camaro SS. I LOVE that car. And while it's mostly stock, I DID learn how to "engineer" a few things on it to enhance it for me. I know other people to took their Camaros in to REAL engineers to further enhance the performance (engine or computer mods for more horsepower, faster shifting, shorter breaking distance, louder exhaust systems). Was ANY of that "required"? Nope, not at all. My Camaro is just as capable of getting me to/from work, to/from the lake, to/from anywhere. I don't "win" by getting any place faster or in more style or with better fuel economy. It's LIFE.

So, no, engineering doesn't necessarily have to be "enjoyed". I was in ED for THREE YEARS before I ever even consider getting any engineering done. This was because the older process was far to random for me (I never take my car in for service and hope I "roll the dice" to get it back in better shape than when I dropped it off) and the outcome just wasn't worth it to me. When they changed it, made the expectations much more predictable, THAT'S when it became value-added to me. NOW, as an informed consumer, I can decide if the grind (investment) is worth the engineered results (return).

If it's not worth it to you, that's perfectly cool. NOT engineering doesn't mean you can't do what you need to do in ED. Your ships don't stop working, you can go pretty much where you want and do what you want. Again, I migrated to Colonia soon after started ED over three years ago and did just fine with zero engineering. Now, I have almost all my ships engineered because it's easy enough, and, more importantly, PREDICTABLE.

I can't stress enough that people need to stop thinking of ED as a typical game. It's not. It's a futuristic virtual life.

 

[Scubadog]

Also....it occurred to me that if Frontier actually adds "space legs" to ED (which I am dead-set against) then ED will become MUCH more like SecondLife. Perilously close.

 

[sgurr]

@House0fDerp
I really, really like the outcome of some aspects of engineering, particularly Dirty Drives, efficient and weight reduction mods, and personally choose to avoid those that make my ships too overpowered vs. npcs with very specific exceptions (those spikey xenos).
In that vein an 850m/s boosting light combat Courier is an absolute hoot, and it means that yes, I want the G5 DD and lightweight upgrades and the mats to enable it.

The actual process however is mostly an interuption to my gameplay. eg. In a war CZ and see that sought after mat? I need to stop what I'm enjoying and scoop.
There are definitely improvements that can be made to give better, wider and more understandable availability of mats, I honestly think they should all be available through missions to give a reliable source. The clicky, clicky nature of upgrading itself is just unnecessary (as is the built in rng on how many mats you need). The mats traders are welcome but I think it would be worth addressing the underlying issues.

It's also an opinion and there are always going to be those who disagree, some of whom you can engage with to share ideas and viewpoints and others not so much.

 

[Scubadog]

@House0fDerp
I really, really like the outcome of some aspects of engineering, particularly Dirty Drives, efficient and weight reduction mods, and personally choose to avoid those that make my ships too overpowered vs. npcs with very specific exceptions (those spikey xenos).
In that vein an 850m/s boosting light combat Courier is an absolute hoot, and it means that yes, I want the G5 DD and lightweight upgrades and the mats to enable it.

The actual process however is mostly an interuption to my gameplay. eg. In a war CZ and see that sought after mat? I need to stop what I'm enjoying and scoop.
There are definitely improvements that can be made to give better, wider and more understandable availability of mats, I honestly think they should all be available through missions to give a reliable source. The clicky, clicky nature of upgrading itself is just unnecessary (as is the built in rng on how many mats you need). The mats traders are welcome but I think it would be worth addressing the underlying issues.

It's also an opinion and there are always going to be those who disagree, some of whom you can engage with to share ideas and viewpoints and others not so much.

Again, I really think people need to stop thinking of it so much as a game. If you're in a real battlefield and you defeat some of your enemy and see some of their weapons or ammo or whatever that you want to grab, in what universe would you be able to "pause the battle" so you can pick that up? I absolutely appreciate that Fdev has set this up so that the messy aspects of being in a CZ are there and that I have choices to make...to just continue the battle or try to squirrel a couple of minutes to grab some of the spoils of battle. It's not "interruption". It's actually much more realistic.

 

[House0fDerp]

Again, I really think people need to stop thinking of it so much as a game. If you're in a real battlefield and you defeat some of your enemy and see some of their weapons or ammo or whatever that you want to grab, in what universe would you be able to "pause the battle" so you can pick that up? I absolutely appreciate that Fdev has set this up so that the messy aspects of being in a CZ are there and that I have choices to make...to just continue the battle or try to squirrel a couple of minutes to grab some of the spoils of battle. It's not "interruption". It's actually much more realistic.

I'm not sure the stated expectation was to have the battle pause while you collected scrap. Rather the issue is the expectation to be picking up scrap in a pitched battle to begin with. This isn't picking up weapons and ammo from fallen opponents, it's individual soldiers in dereliction of duty picking up scrap those while the fight is still going so they can personally reverse engineer the bits into their own guns.

It's terribly unrealistic and it's the nature of the system we have. It's gamey to the core and as such needs to be thought of as a game because otherwise I'm asking why I'm not being questioned for my warship being full of collectors and cargo racks rather than HRPs/MRPs/GSBs/etc.

I think the idea that "a game should be designed to be played fully" is just ridiculous. It makes me believe people with this attitude really don't understand what games like ED are. Have you ever used SecondLife? It's much less a game than it is a virtual existence. And, in SL, there are limitless areas that you may never go to and limitless facilities you may never choose to engage. Why? Because in many respects it emulates REAL life. Do you "play" everything in real life? Doubtful. I'm a scuba diver. I "play" a part of real life that only about 1-2% of the entire WORLD ever "plays". That requires me to get trained, buy gear, learn to use the gear, enhance the gear and then go experience it.

Elite Dangerous is MUCH more like that. If all you do is see this as a game, then I'm afraid you completely miss the point. There is a reason why there is a healthy and growing lore ("history") to this virtual existence. There's a reason why commanders get so wrapped up in their ED personas, including yours truly. I can take you through just about any aspect of ED and draw you a parallel to something in real life. You don't "win" ED. There is no "endgame" to it. You are "born", you grow and learn, you do work and acquire things and have a career...or two or three. You interact socially with others to whatever you choose--just like in real life. You learn from each other. YOU decide how fulfilling your virtual life in ED is. That includes engineering.

I drive 2013 Camaro SS. I LOVE that car. And while it's mostly stock, I DID learn how to "engineer" a few things on it to enhance it for me. I know other people to took their Camaros in to REAL engineers to further enhance the performance (engine or computer mods for more horsepower, faster shifting, shorter breaking distance, louder exhaust systems). Was ANY of that "required"? Nope, not at all. My Camaro is just as capable of getting me to/from work, to/from the lake, to/from anywhere. I don't "win" by getting any place faster or in more style or with better fuel economy. It's LIFE.

So, no, engineering doesn't necessarily have to be "enjoyed". I was in ED for THREE YEARS before I ever even consider getting any engineering done. This was because the older process was far to random for me (I never take my car in for service and hope I "roll the dice" to get it back in better shape than when I dropped it off) and the outcome just wasn't worth it to me. When they changed it, made the expectations much more predictable, THAT'S when it became value-added to me. NOW, as an informed consumer, I can decide if the grind (investment) is worth the engineered results (return).

If it's not worth it to you, that's perfectly cool. NOT engineering doesn't mean you can't do what you need to do in ED. Your ships don't stop working, you can go pretty much where you want and do what you want. Again, I migrated to Colonia soon after started ED over three years ago and did just fine with zero engineering. Now, I have almost all my ships engineered because it's easy enough, and, more importantly, PREDICTABLE.

I can't stress enough that people need to stop thinking of ED as a typical game. It's not. It's a futuristic virtual life.

I just don't see it. Everything in this so called realistic sim seems created for the sole intent of driving the intended experience rather than following realism. Why do we have dog-fighting rather than long-ranged combat? Gameplay design. Why is a spaceship pilot needed to carry an email when encryption and FTL comms exist? Gameplay design. Why did the concept of price and availability advertising die in regard to goods? Gameplay design.

And dear lord are engineers the digital incarnation of gameplay design over realism. How the did Palin know the exact moment I went 5k ly. Who's reporting those markets to Lei Cheung? I'm not the only one delivering 10's of tons of cigars and brandy. what is actually going on with that? As addressed above we have battlefield looting that in no way resembles restocking usable weapons and ammo. We have a market that doesn't believe in selling commodities relevant to engineering either. What's up with that? No one wants that dank commander cash? The remote workshop thing has me full of questions. So does engineered module rebuy.

No, it's far from a digital space life. It's a space game that runs like a space game with rules and mechanics like a space game. I've not "done it all" in real life. I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops. I can just go and exchange money for a service or tinker with products I bought at my leisure.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops.

/thread

 

[dxm55]

Would be better if he just understood what I was saying instead making crap up. But that seems to be the forum way.

I think he understands. He just disagrees with you.

And I sort of disagree with the current mechanics too.

When you need to gather stuff to make something, it could be considered a quest.
Quests are exciting. In order to get A, you need to do B, C and D.

It works if you only need to do it once.

The requirements to UNLOCK an engineer could be considered a quest. They have a single prerequisite.
Eg: Get 3 units of rare Item A that can be found only at location X.

But engineering requires you to get some of B here, and bit more of B there, and again over there....
Oh C and D are also all over the place. You need to get 10 of them. But they're randomly all around with no clear indication.

That's no longer a quest. It's a grind.
Quests are fun. Grinds are not.

 

[WinterKing2112]

I'm not sure the stated expectation was to have the battle pause while you collected scrap. Rather the issue is the expectation to be picking up scrap in a pitched battle to begin with. This isn't picking up weapons and ammo from fallen opponents, it's individual soldiers in dereliction of duty picking up scrap those while the fight is still going so they can personally reverse engineer the bits into their own guns.

It's terribly unrealistic and it's the nature of the system we have. It's gamey to the core and as such needs to be thought of as a game because otherwise I'm asking why I'm not being questioned for my warship being full of collectors and cargo racks rather than HRPs/MRPs/GSBs/etc.



I just don't see it. Everything in this so called realistic sim seems created for the sole intent of driving the intended experience rather than following realism. Why do we have dog-fighting rather than long-ranged combat? Gameplay design. Why is a spaceship pilot needed to carry an email when encryption and FTL comms exist? Gameplay design. Why did the concept of price and availability advertising die in regard to goods? Gameplay design.

And dear lord are engineers the digital incarnation of gameplay design over realism. How the gently caress did Palin know the exact moment I went 5k ly. Who's reporting those markets to Lei Cheung? I'm not the only one delivering 10's of tons of cigars and brandy. what is actually going on with that? As addressed above we have battlefield looting that in no way resembles restocking usable weapons and ammo. We have a market that doesn't believe in selling commodities relevant to engineering either. What's up with that? No one wants that dank commander cash? The remote workshop thing has me full of questions. So does engineered module rebuy.

No, it's far from a digital space life. It's a space game that runs like a space game with rules and mechanics like a space game. I've not "done it all" in real life. I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops. I can just go and exchange money for a service or tinker with products I bought at my leisure.

Ah but if it was the best sound system u ever heard, would u then sacrifice those goats? And if you got a whiff of brimstone off the guy selling u the system, would u still buy it?