Reduce the grind

[Garbarrage]

You're one of the people complaining about grind when it isn't necessary to play the game. You tell me. Why do you grind when others do not?

Probably for the same reason that some people find cricket boring while others don't.

If I was finding something was grindy I would stop doing it and move onto something I enjoy doing.

Seems that there's plenty of players who have come to this conclusion already. I logged on to Mobius last week and there wasn't a single player online. Compare this to last year when there would be several hundred online on a quiet day. It wouldn't bode well if this was indicative of the state of the population in the rest of the game.

 

[Screemonster]

I know surprise mechanics but I haven't come across "gacha games, power creep"

Explain please.

players have a-rated ships and fight npcs
engineers are added
players now have tougher ships
tougher npcs are needed to keep up with them
plain a-rated ships are now no longer viable
thargoids are added which need engineered ships at a minimum
guardian weapons are added that make killing thargoids easier
tougher thargoids have to be added to pose a challenge to people that have engineered ships and guardian weapons
people without fully-engineered guardian-armed ships might as well not bother with thargoid content at all

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I know surprise mechanics but I haven't come across "gacha games, power creep"

Explain please.

Gacha (from japanese) is caspuled toy vending and used here as synonyme for loot box mechanics since you throw in a coin but dont know what "gacha" will come from the vending machine. In a wider sense I include overly RNG-based reward structures.

Power creep is when more powerful gear, items, skill trees get introduced. Its detrimental effects show especially when "vanilla" gameplay becomes obsolete and the power creep replaces "vanilla" gameplay as the new normal - because that makes entire gameplay obsolete (noone playing the starter areas in MMO) or functions like a de-facto nerf to existing progression (what you collected is suddenly no longer efficient over night with a new game version).

 

[Sunyavadin]

thargoids are added which need engineered ships at a minimum
guardian weapons are added that make killing thargoids easier
tougher thargoids have to be added to pose a challenge to people that have engineered ships and guardian weapons
people without fully-engineered guardian-armed ships might as well not bother with thargoid content at all

This is basically how any MMO works.
You need challenging endgame group content to maintain player interest.
For players who play for the trading, that's PMFs and the BGS.
For players who play for the combat, that's Thargoids.
For players who play for the exploration.... I'll get back to you when Frontier figure out what to do about that. There's a bunch of potential ideas with the codex, but nothing implemented ingame so far.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Personally, I'm 90% happy with what's in Elite. The other 10% everybody covers repeatedly on this forum time and time again. However, there is one simple trick that was suggested at the end of the Beta. The beta players spotted that the travel between stations could take too long, especially in multi-star systems. Hutton anyone? The Idea was that, if you had already visited that system and you had selected a Nav target in that system, i.e. Hutton Orbital. Then the hyperspace jump would dump you out at the star closest to your target and not one thousands of LS away and fifteen minutes of supercruise away.

Problem is that remember that Frontier had already changed the design thanks to the player DDF to include super-cruise to travel between in-system, instead of a nav point to point system. FDev has since then always said that the travel times are important to give the galaxy and the solar systems a sense of scale, but you got the impression that this was more like 'We changed it once for you lot, we're not changing it all again after we've put all that work in!'

Don't get me wrong, I sometime enjoy a good cruise with the netflix running in the corner. It can be quite theraputic but when you are time poor as this forum dad, you do wish there was a way to speed up the trip.

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

I think that there are a lot of good mechanic in Elite, but they get scaled to a point that becomes grindy.

A great example is the Guardian weapons and modules. The puzzles are fun and the designs are really cool. It makes sense to go on a quest of sorts to obtain more powerful weapons.

The issue lies in the implementation. Why do I need 45 epsilon data packets? Why couldn't it be 1? I would guess that to obtain all of the weapons and modules, you have to visit close to 50-60 guardian sites, and there are ~10 unique layouts to them. This is where grind is perceived. Also, one needs to unlock each different size individually. Its a bit annoying, even for a part of the game that I think is designed well.

Then there is the infamous engineering. The fun part of it is pushing a ship to the limit, and playing around with the different effects and experimentals. the grind comes in when there are ~100 different materials/data that can be found at 5 different degrees of rarity throughout the galaxy. Also the fact that once these are gathered, they improve the ship at varying degrees. ANNNDDD you can only pin one blueprint per engineer, but still have to visit them for the experimental effects.

The grind in ED comes from the mechanic being sound, but then being needlessly scaled up too much (guardian); or being obfuscated too much (engineers).

 

[Screemonster]

Doing the guardian puzzle once was fun. Even doing it at different sites was fun. Having to do the same site over and over and over was not fun.

 

[House0fDerp]

The criticism was grind. The requirements are not depending on how you go about it.

The criticism was the grind, not the necessity of the upgrades. Those 2 things are not the same, thus the upgrades being optional is irrelevant.

I am not excusing the issues with it.

No, you're just offering wholly irrelevant information deflecting from the issue actually being complained about.

You're one of the people complaining about grind when it isn't necessary to play the game. You tell me. Why do you grind when others do not?

This has been answered already:

We can love trade while not being fond of combat so having relevant mods hidden behind combat engineers and their upgrades might be tedious. Or liking combat but hating the dock>jump>dock loop of trade making that seem tedious blocking some upgrades. Or maybe you're not fond of your spaceship game telling you some options are locked behind getting out of your ship in a go kart. Whatever.

But hey, there's stuff you want to play with on the other end of that for your space ship in a game about space ships which makes you want to have it done even if you don't want to do it.

Notice that lack of claim for any "need" there. Your entire argument regarding "need" is a strawman. You know full well why people grind and you know that want is as valid a reason as any. You're talking in circles. You acknowledge the game lacks in some areas and that desirable things are locked behind those aspects but you place the blame on the player for wanting to engage with the game. How incredibly nonsensical.

If I was finding something was grindy I would stop doing it and move onto something I enjoy doing. Certainly wouldn't waste my time complaining on a forum, total waste of f@#$ibg time mate! Also smacks of being a little bit entitled too IMO.

The irony involved in claiming what you wouldn't waste your time arguing about after having spent so much time across at least 2 threads posting, reading and liking posts is not lost on me.

Also sure, providing feedback is entitlement. Might as well close the suggestion forums because of all that entitlement. Thinking something could be more enjoyably designed? How entitled. Feedback on a product you bought and the areas you found lacking? Entitlement. Glad we got that covered.

 

[Garbarrage]

I think that there are a lot of good mechanic in Elite, but they get scaled to a point that becomes grindy.

A great example is the Guardian weapons and modules. The puzzles are fun and the designs are really cool. It makes sense to go on a quest of sorts to obtain more powerful weapons.

The issue lies in the implementation. Why do I need 45 epsilon data packets? Why couldn't it be 1? I would guess that to obtain all of the weapons and modules, you have to visit close to 50-60 guardian sites, and there are ~10 unique layouts to them. This is where grind is perceived. Also, one needs to unlock each different size individually. Its a bit annoying, even for a part of the game that I think is designed well.

Then there is the infamous engineering. The fun part of it is pushing a ship to the limit, and playing around with the different effects and experimentals. the grind comes in when there are ~100 different materials/data that can be found at 5 different degrees of rarity throughout the galaxy. Also the fact that once these are gathered, they improve the ship at varying degrees. ANNNDDD you can only pin one blueprint per engineer, but still have to visit them for the experimental effects.

The grind in ED comes from the mechanic being sound, but then being needlessly scaled up too much (guardian); or being obfuscated too much (engineers).

This is exactly right.

They do seem to rely heavily on busy work in general though. It seems to be ingrained in their approach to game design. Sandro in particular seemed hell bent on adding as much grind as possible to every part of the game. I had hoped with him gone, there would be a possibility that the next guy would go a bit easier.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The criticism was the grind, not the necessity of the upgrades. Those 2 things are not the same, thus the upgrades being optional is irrelevant.



No, you're just offering wholly irrelevant information deflecting from the issue actually being complained about.



This has been answered already:



Notice that lack of claim for any "need" there. Your entire argument regarding "need" is a strawman. You know full well why people grind and you know that want is as valid a reason as any. You're talking in circles. You acknowledge the game lacks in some areas and that desirable things are locked behind those aspects but you place the blame on the player for wanting to engage with the game. How incredibly nonsensical.



The irony involved in claiming what you wouldn't waste your time arguing about after having spent so much time across at least 2 threads posting, reading and liking posts is not lost on me.

Also sure, providing feedback is entitlement. Might as well close the suggestion forums because of all that entitlement. Thinking something could be more enjoyably designed? How entitled. Feedback on a product you bought and the areas you found lacking? Entitlement. Glad we got that covered.

The only straw is coming from you mate. You're just desperately trying to justify the grind you put yourself through. Hilarious.

 

[House0fDerp]

The only straw is coming from you mate. You're just desperately trying to justify the grind you put yourself through. Hilarious.

You might want to reread the conversation then. The one who brought up needs was you. Only you. That's the strawman you brought in. And it's still just you.

 

[CMDR Jowley]

The only straw is coming from you mate. You're just desperately trying to justify the grind you put yourself through. Hilarious.

I'm not sure the posts you are making are honest.

You say its optional but let me ask you a question. Why do you invest your time and money into anything and not get the most out of it? Why would you not want to unlock everything?

Are you really saying that if something is too hard or to takes too long you dont bother? Are you really saying that because, mate, nothing feels better than achieving something you worked for.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You might want to reread the conversation then. The one who brought up needs was you. Only you. That's the strawman you brought in. And it's still just you.

Yes for good reason. The only reason to grind is if you need something. If you don't there is no need to grind it out. It's simple.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'm not sure the posts you are making are honest.

More honest then most I think.

You say its optional but let me ask you a question. Why do you invest your time and money into anything and not get the most out of it? Why would you not want to unlock everything?

Getting the most out of a computer game is to enjoy your time in it. I refuse to grind as it is not enjoyable.

Are you really saying that if something is too hard or to takes too long you dont bother? Are you really saying that because, mate, nothing feels better than achieving something you worked for.

Nope. Never said that once.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Engineers was a really weird game addition. I don't think I've encountered another game where there has been an expansion/update that materially changes the game and actually makes it much less enjoyable...but yet the developer doubled down on it.

I only had the core game for the 1st 6 months, loved it but was a bit annoyed that the elite npc's could kick my butt so easily, and I was not sure why that was. Finally got Horizons a few months back. I have enjoyed pimping my ships, they are so much better when they have been engineered. Now I can kick any npc's butt and finally feel confident to play in open. So I'm enjoying the engineering thing, but when you say "...makes it less enjoyable...", you do realise that that is just your opinion, and that there are those of us who don't agree with you? Because the way you state that, it sounds like you think everyone agrees with you, and if you read this thread around 50% of forumites don't agree with you. Then again about 50% do so it looks like an even split.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Guardians - Yep, the grind was real pre nerf of mats. 8 blueprints for 1 module! logfest galore!

engineers - Yes, the mats traders to help a bit.

Exploring - radio button simulator, really.

Combat - You can do without, but much more fun when pimped... start grinding.

I think they really got their game loops wrong. When game loops turn into mindless repetivness, then it's a grind.
Maybe not loot boxes, but loot to drop in general, like a good module that you need to take to an engineer to have it pimped. And it would have certain base stats that would be better than the stock modules anyone can buy. As an idea. People mind "grinding" less, if there is a chance of a good reward. Something exciting to drop. When you just keep blowing up rocks and crystals, you know exactly what's going to drop.

The whole reason people are "grinding" is because of the great rewards. What are u on about? And If you're looking for a particular raw mat, and used the surface scanner to find out where lots of it can be found, would you not be annoyed if something totally random dropped? I mean, you're looking for something specific, you don't want a random drop in this case. So again, what is your point??

 

[House0fDerp]

Yes for good reason. The only reason to grind is if you need something. If you don't there is no need to grind it out. It's simple.

No, it genuinely isn't the only reason to grind. I have no clue why you think it is.

More honest then most I think.

If you are indeed being honest then the other possibility is that you've hard locked your outlook to your personal way of doing things and refuse to consider that other ways exist.

 

[WinterKing2112]

That the whole point my dude, engineering does indeed give a massive boost, the difference is night & day. I also understand you play the game differently to me, i was playing the game to engage with the PP at a PvP level & for that i need my ship to be engineered, such is the new meta of the game now. Now, you seem to be "indifferent" to the grind, it neither bothers you or affects your playstyle, from which if FD did reduce the grind for Engineering, surely it still would not bother you & so there isn't much reason to stand in the way of having the grind reduced? Surely this would be a good thing if it allows new players & weekend warriors like myself & my friend to engage in a part of the game we purposely play for & what i use to do before Horizon? Before Horizon i was already interested in the BGS & pvp combat, i even started a thread that listed conflict zones for like minded people.

Now i'm indifferent to loot boxes, i generally don't tend to bother with them for most games but in the case of CS:GO i buy low & sell high. But overall such an idea is a whole new kettle of fish & would most likely dwarf the 'grind debate', which would quickly be viewed as 'pay to win'. You think i haven't already tested the ground on your idea as an alternative to the grind? The thing would not take flight & i'd imagine the Steam Reviews would fly of a cliff edge. Regardless if the fix to the grind is as easy as implementing loot boxes, surely it would be easier to just reduce the grind for engineering. Like i said, if everyone is like yourself & just merrily flying about taking it in its stride, surely it won't matter to you if engineering was fixed.

Well said. Okay, how about paying for mats from the mats traders? That idea has been suggested before and as long as the mats traders are charging a premium for the mats I would be good with that.. There must be some sort of costs for all that sweet ship pimping those engineers do for us. I also think a credit cost for the ship pimping would make sense, weird that those engineers do all that work for free.... I wouldn't if I was an engineer. Don't think many people would!

 

[photomankc]

So I'm gonna suggest something radical here, hopefully this won't produce too many howls of rage. Actually, I don't care if it does, I'm a punk/metalhead so I love chaos! So here goes nothing: If Frontier wants to to stop the moaning about people being forced to explore, check out USS's etc, I think it's time to introduce loot boxes, then people who only want to PvP and nothing else can get the mats they need. That would be a win for Frontier and a win for PvPers. And guys like me will still be fine 'cos we can get all the mats we need just by playing the game, ALL of the game, not just PvP.

LOL.... I love it!

I'm the same. I just do the stuff that I think is interesting, pick up the mats as they come, and trade for the ones I don't have. But I'm not in a race to start shooting players tomorrow.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No, it genuinely isn't the only reason to grind. I have no clue why you think it is.

Yes it is.

If you are indeed being honest then the other possibility is that you've hard locked your outlook to your personal way of doing things and refuse to consider that other ways exist.

Oh, I certainly consider other playstyles exist. But what I don't get is people choosing to play in a certain way and then complain about it. Seems a bit dumb to me.