Make Black Holes a more Dangerous encounter

[Commander William Diffin]

Its a video game based on physics in real life though:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/c1ytj2

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/c1ytj2/an_explanation_of_the_fsd_by_cmdr_azmuth/

tldr

The FSD is not real and neither are its physics. The FSD allows you to travel faster than light, which contemporary unproveable quack alchemy holds is impossible. And as you travel faster than light, it also allows you to see the light of everything around you as if you were motionless relative to it, without any Doppler distortion at all. And no one knows what black holes are made of, beyond they are observed to be collapsed remnants of enormous stars, whose density creates a gravitational field strong enough to trap light, and consume whole star systems.

This is a game not a simulation, and too many liberties have already been taken with known physics, and the rest of the astrophysics are as yet entirely unknown, to be able be create an authentic simulation of what happens with black holes in this game. So any discussion of the physics is pointless, and merely obstructive to devising a black hole mechanic for the game that is adequately convincing, compelling and fun to engage with.

To return to the op then. The op is right. Black Holes are a placeholder that it is high time was fleshed out. The light distortion already implemented is very effective, but the black holes are just a point without any event horizon, that is to say the enormous spherical black bubble around the stellar core remnant from which no light (and therefore no information of any kind of event, hence 'event' horizon) can escape. That really breaks the immersion for me like an 'Under construction' page on a website.

The monstrous singularity at the heart of the M87* supermassive black hole, at the centre of the giant elliptical galaxy Messier №87, about 55,000,000L-y away, has consumed so much matter that it is observably firing collimated jets of heliacal plasma out of its poles at six times the speed of light, across thousands of light years of space, turning hundreds of star systems into immense fireballs in its wake, and setting the interstellar medium of the entire galaxy, thirty times more massive than the Milky Way, ringing like a bell with an abysmal tone that is 56 octaves below the bottom note on a piano. A piano string 14 light-years long would be required to produce such an apocalyptically portentous note. The event horizon surrounding the stellar core remnant is about the diameter of the orbit of Pluto about Sol, 19.7kls, representing a bubble of complete void the size of the entire Solar System out to the trans-Neptunian region.

Whilst there is nothing quite so awesome and terrible in the Milky Way as M87*, there should be enormous black bubbles bigger than stars at the centre of Black Holes and their light distortion effects. And whatever anybody says about FSD physics, entering those bubbles should be certain destruction for any starship, and drawing close to them should entail the deadly peril of being pulled in or else ripped apart trying to escape.

Discussions of any games of 'chicken' or event horizon surfing, or sub-event-horizon research opportunities, that imaginative developers might like to implement with new larger Black Holes in Elite Dangerous, or any other pertinent ideas, are now invited.

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

tldr

The FSD is not real and neither are its physics. The FSD allows you to travel faster than light, which contemporary unproveable quack alchemy holds is impossible. And as you travel faster than light, it also allows you to see the light of everything around you as if you were motionless relative to it, without any Doppler distortion at all. And no one knows what black holes are made of, beyond they are observed to be collapsed remnants of enormous stars, whose density creates a gravitational field strong enough to trap light, and consume whole star systems.

This is a game not a simulation, and too many liberties have already been taken with known physics, and the rest of the astrophysics are as yet entirely unknown, to be able be create an authentic simulation of what happens with black holes in this game. So any discussion of the physics is pointless, and merely obstructive to devising a black hole mechanic for the game that is adequately convincing, compelling and fun to engage with.

To return to the op then. The op is right. Black Holes are a placeholder that it is high time was fleshed out. The light distortion already implemented is very effective, but the black holes are just a point without any event horizon, that is to say the enormous spherical black bubble around the stellar core remnant from which no light (and therefore no information of any kind of event, hence 'event' horizon) can escape. That really breaks the immersion for me like an 'Under construction' page on a website.

The monstrous singularity at the heart of the M87* supermassive black hole, at the centre of the giant elliptical galaxy Messier №87, about 55,000,000L-y away, has consumed so much matter that it is observably firing collimated jets of heliacal plasma out of its poles at six times the speed of light, across thousands of light years of space, turning hundreds of star systems into immense fireballs in its wake, and setting the interstellar medium of the entire galaxy, thirty times more massive than the Milky Way, ringing like a bell with an abysmal tone that is 56 octaves below the bottom note on a piano. A piano string 14 light-years long would be required to produce such an apocalyptically portentous note. The event horizon surrounding the stellar core remnant is about the diameter of the orbit of Pluto about Sol, 19.7kls, representing a bubble of complete void the size of the entire Solar System out to the trans-Neptunian region.

Whilst there is nothing quite so awesome and terrible in the Milky Way as M87*, there should be enormous black bubbles bigger than stars at the centre of Black Holes and their light distortion effects. And whatever anybody says about FSD physics, entering those bubbles should be certain destruction for any starship, and drawing close to them should entail the deadly peril of being pulled in or else ripped apart trying to escape.

Discussions of any games of 'chicken' or event horizon surfing, or sub-event-horizon research opportunities, that imaginative developers might like to implement with new larger Black Holes in Elite Dangerous, or any other pertinent ideas, are now invited.

No, there is no existing physics of a black hole that can affect a ship in a hyperspace state.
Alcubierre and 4th Dimensional spatial physics would overcome any the physics of a black hole as it affects 4th Dimensional spatial physics as well.
4th Dimensional physics aside. Your ship is being translocated 20,000 to 30,000 times the speed of light.
The black hole wouldnt even have a chance to have an effect on your ship even if your ship dipped under the even horizon.
Going back to 4th Dimensional physics your fsd is warping space much heavier than the black hole is. The energy threshold is signifigantly higher than any single point of the black hole. And the fsd in this state is more likely to take matter away from the black hole than the black hole would from your ship.

Not only that but calling black holes a hole is 100% fallacy of science.
There is zero evidence that a black hole is actually a hole especially since evidence supports that a black hole is more closely related to a neutron star since they can both have jet cones and accretion disks as well as gaining mass when they consume matter.

Saying they are an actual hole in spacetime is absolutely preposterous.
And the only way a black hole can affect your ship in the hyperspace state is if your ship actually crashes in the center mass.
The only way I can think of that a black hole would be able to affect your ship is in the supercruise state and thats assuming they were going slower than light and the exclusion zone being reduced.

 

[Commander William Diffin]

No, there is no existing physics of a black hole that can affect a ship in a hyperspace state.
Alcubierre and 4th Dimensional spatial physics would overcome any the physics of a black hole as it affects 4th Dimensional spatial physics as well.
4th Dimensional physics aside. Your ship is being translocated 20,000 to 30,000 times the speed of light.
The black hole wouldnt even have a chance to have an effect on your ship even if your ship dipped under the even horizon.
Going back to 4th Dimensional physics your fsd is warping space much heavier than the black hole is. The energy threshold is signifigantly higher than any single point of the black hole.

Not only that but calling black holes a hole is 100% fallacy of science.
There is zero evidence that a black hole is actually a hole especially since evidence supports that a black hole is more closely related to a neutron star since they can both have jet cones and accretion disks as well as gaining mass when they consume matter.

Saying they are an actual hole in spacetime is absolutely preposterous.
And the only way a black hole can affect your ship in the hyperspace state is if your ship actually crashes in the center mass.
The only way I can think of that a black hole would be able to affect your ship is in the supercruise state and thats assuming they were going slower than light and the exclusion zone being reduced.

IDC

This thread isn't your personal vehicle for you to teach your own quack ideas of black hole mechanics to players of Elite, it's a discussion of how FD should implement black holes in this game to make them more fun. The theoretical physics is not of paramount importance in that context and no one here is asking to study it. No one can assert what the physics actually is with any authority in any case. So you believe that theoretical physics proves that if the FSD was real it should be able to escape any amount of gravity. So noted. And so what. You've said your piece. Now stop hijacking the thread.

***

In reply to the op again then:

Black holes in the game would certainly be more impressive and look more dangerous if they were centred on gigantic black bubbles bigger than in-game stars and the orbits of planets around them. And they would be more dangerous if those black bubbles behaved like super-magnetic death zones for ships in the game.

Such a mechanic would be appropriate in the context of the game, and simple to implement. It would also open up new areas of gameplay in terms of exploration, probe slinging, and event horizon surfing.

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

IDC

This thread isn't your personal vehicle for you to teach your own quack ideas of black hole mechanics to players of Elite, it's a discussion of how FD should implement black holes in this game to make them more fun. The theoretical physics is not of paramount importance in that context and no one here is asking to study it. No one can assert what the physics actually is with any authority in any case. So you believe that theoretical physics proves that if the FSD was real it should be able to escape any amount of gravity. So noted. And so what. You've said your piece. Now stop hijacking the thread.

***

In reply to the op again then:

Black holes in the game would certainly be more impressive and look more dangerous if they were centred on gigantic black bubbles bigger than in-game stars and the orbits of planets around them. And they would be more dangerous if those black bubbles behaved like super-magnetic death zones for ships in the game.

Such a mechanic would be appropriate in the context of the game, and simple to implement. It would also open up new areas of gameplay in terms of exploration, probe slinging, and event horizon surfing.

Right because frontier took into account the physics of frame dragging and alcubierre when they made the game for giggles.
Theres nothing quack about the science behind it.
And saying "its just a game" or "handwavium" undermines frontier's endeavors to make the game as scientifically realistic as possible.
The real quack thing here is not learning why frontier has impliented the FSD the way they have.
I am fully against anything that makes the game more like an arcade instead of a hyper realistic space sim as was originally intended.

 

[Commander William Diffin]

Right because frontier took into account the physics of frame dragging and alcubierre when they made the game for giggles.
Theres nothing quack about the science behind it.
And saying "its just a game" or "handwavium" undermines frontier's endeavors to make the game as scientifically realistic as possible.
The real quack thing here is not learning why frontier has impliented the FSD the way they have.
I am fully against anything that makes the game more like an arcade instead of a hyper realistic space sim as was originally intended.

Everything you're talking about is theoretical, unproven, and unproveable. To present theories as scientific facts and use them as the basis of new theories to assert as facts which nobody can prove, is quack.

No one is here to learn theoretical physics, especially not from you. They are here to discuss the development of the black hole placeholder in Elite: Dangerous.

And from the beginning, Elite has never pretended to be a 'hyper-realistic space sim', but was sold as a space trading video game. All through the development of Elite: Dangerous, backers like me who have complained about the numerous departures from actual physics in the game, have been repeatedly reminded of that fact.

I think that everybody here knows now that you are against changing the current black hole mechanic, because to do so would defy your unqualified conception of theoretical physics. So you needn't repeat yourself again.

***

The current black hole mechanic is only a placeholder, and is not meant to be scientifically accurate. In fact it is entirely scientifically inaccurate at least insofar that event horizons are apparent voids which can have diameters of hundreds or thousands of millions of kilometers, and are not a single black point in space that you can fly right up to as in the current placeholder.

Obviously that mechanic has to be developed, and obviously this is the thread to discuss how it might be developed. And I don't yet see anyone here suggesting anything more 'realistic', or straightforward to implement, or conducive to improved gameplay, than implementing black holes as gigantic black bubbles in space, which gravitationally lens everything around them, and suck in ships that get too close to them, to their destruction. As any reasonable person might expect.

 

[Yaffle]

Can we stick to the topic please.

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

Everything you're talking about is theoretical, unproven, and unproveable. To present theories as scientific facts and use them as the basis of new theories to assert as facts which nobody can prove, is quack.

No one is here to learn theoretical physics, especially not from you. They are here to discuss the development of the black hole placeholder in Elite: Dangerous.

And from the beginning, Elite has never pretended to be a 'hyper-realistic space sim', but was sold as a space trading video game. All through the development of Elite: Dangerous, backers like me who have complained about the numerous departures from actual physics in the game, have been repeatedly reminded of that fact.

I think that everybody here knows now that you are against changing the current black hole mechanic, because to do so would defy your unqualified conception of theoretical physics. So you needn't repeat yourself again.

***

The current black hole mechanic is only a placeholder, and is not meant to be scientifically accurate. In fact it is entirely scientifically inaccurate at least insofar that event horizons are apparent voids which can have diameters of hundreds or thousands of millions of kilometers, and are not a single black point in space that you can fly right up to as in the current placeholder.

Obviously that mechanic has to be developed, and obviously this is the thread to discuss how it might be developed. And I don't yet see anyone here suggesting anything more 'realistic', or straightforward to implement, or conducive to improved gameplay, than implementing black holes as gigantic black bubbles in space, which gravitationally lens everything around them, and suck in ships that get too close to them, to their destruction. As any reasonable person might expect.

i never said i was against it. I said i was against making the black hole affect the ship in the hyperspace state as some form of mysterious and nonsensical danger event when even in theory there is no black hole in existence that could affect something moving that fast or with that energy state.
ofcourse the blackholes lacking accretion disks and jet cones within the game not withstanding the tidal forces that would accompany it are missing from the game.
a black hole could very well affect anything moving slower than light.

your favoritism in the use of "quack" aside people love to throw nonsensical ideas that black holes are "tears in the universe" "wormholes" "encapsulate universes" (of which none of these magical sci fi scenarios are even remotely true) when their closest existing relative is a neutron star of which that is the only real life approximation of what a black hole is. Calling a black hole a "tear in the universe" is like having a vaccum cleaner that doesnt store the debris it sucks up. if they are truely tears in space-time they wouldnt even create hawking radiation because all the broken down matter they contain would just be immediately erased from the universe which would also prevent the black hole from having any sort of gravity to speak of let alone accretion disks or jet cones. Im fully against black holes being these magical nonsensical bodies when we actualy already have a good idea what a black hole is especialy with nasa's observation of how frame dragging works. Also thanks to observations in gravitational waves and their distortion of space along side how frame dragging works we actualy DO have an idea of how 4th dimensional spatial warping would work.

Building on the black holes in the game I would love to see accretion discs, jet cones, warped planets or stars of the like. Even adding danger to attempt to land on these planets caught in the black hole's gravity trying to avoid astroids and shifting planetary plates or gasses caused by the close approximation to the black hole is something I would enjoy as content.
I would even be fine with black holes making the ship "rock" in supercruise if one crosses the jet cones or the plane of the accretion disks if they got close enough because of how frame dragging works.
but deffinitely not something that "magically" causes the black hole to break laws of entropy, relativity or zero point energy of physics.

Anyways thats my input on the whole thing. feel free to take it how you will, but my desire to discuss this is concluded.

 

[Commander William Diffin]

i never said i was against it. I said i was against making the black hole affect the ship in the hyperspace state as some form of mysterious and nonsensical danger event when even in theory there is no black hole in existence that could affect something moving that fast or with that energy state.
ofcourse the blackholes lacking accretion disks and jet cones within the game not withstanding the tidal forces that would accompany it are missing from the game.
a black hole could very well affect anything moving slower than light.

your favoritism in the use of "quack" aside people love to throw nonsensical ideas that black holes are "tears in the universe" "wormholes" "encapsulate universes" (of which none of these magical sci fi scenarios are even remotely true) when their closest existing relative is a neutron star of which that is the only real life approximation of what a black hole is. Calling a black hole a "tear in the universe" is like having a vaccum cleaner that doesnt store the debris it sucks up. if they are truely tears in space-time they wouldnt even create hawking radiation because all the broken down matter they contain would just be immediately erased from the universe which would also prevent the black hole from having any sort of gravity to speak of let alone accretion disks or jet cones. Im fully against black holes being these magical nonsensical bodies when we actualy already have a good idea what a black hole is especialy with nasa's observation of how frame dragging works. Also thanks to observations in gravitational waves and their distortion of space along side how frame dragging works we actualy DO have an idea of how 4th dimensional spatial warping would work.

Building on the black holes in the game I would love to see accretion discs, jet cones, warped planets or stars of the like. Even adding danger to attempt to land on these planets caught in the black hole's gravity trying to avoid astroids and shifting planetary plates or gasses caused by the close approximation to the black hole is something I would enjoy as content.
I would even be fine with black holes making the ship "rock" in supercruise if one crosses the jet cones or the plane of the accretion disks if they got close enough because of how frame dragging works.
but deffinitely not something that "magically" causes the black hole to break laws of entropy, relativity or zero point energy of physics.

Anyways thats my input on the whole thing. feel free to take it how you will, but my desire to discuss this is concluded.

Nobody's talking about black holes affecting the ship in the hyperspace state. We're talking about making them dangerous to fly close to in Supercruise or normal flight. There is nothing mystical or nonsensical about the danger faced by a spacecraft caught in the immense gravitational field of a black hole. It is quite real. Black holes have escape velocities that are much faster than the speed of light, and in Supercruise it is possible to travel at many times the speed of light. But accelerating to those sort of velocities takes time in Supercruise. Time that a pilot being drawn into a black hole does not have.

No one apart from you is throwing around nonsensical ideas about the nature of black holes. As far as I am concerned, they are dense stellar core remnants, with a gravitational field so powerful that it will not admit the passage of light within a certain distance from the core remnant. I do not believe in time dilation and related theoretical relativistic phenomena, except as optical illusions. I do not believe in space warping or wormholes or multiple dimensions. I believe that outside of science fiction, such ideas are the stock-in-trade of charlatans misappropriating research funding, the contemporary equivalent of mediæval 'quack' alchemists. I don't believe in hyperspace either, but I am perfectly happy to suspend my disbelief for the sake of this game.

How to implement the ergosphere of a black hole is another discussion. Personally I am content if FD leave out accretion discs and other ergosphere phenomena, since related phenomena are not present elsewhere in the game e.g. there is no gravitational distortion of or plasma transfer between closely gravitationally bound binary stars, or plasma ring systems around stars. I agree it would be great to have them though. They must be spectacular.

So, again, the question is one of how to implement the danger of black holes in the game in a compelling way. Which is what this thread is for. Perhaps now someone can actually engage with the suggestion of making them immense black bubbles millions of kilometres across, that distort light and are super-magnetic to starships and other objects that get too close to them, which objects are then torn apart or simply disappear as they are drawn into the event horizon.