Fix broken PvE AI to make it an enjoyable challenge, and not CHEAP

[Ian Skippy]

It is because the AI has INSTANT PIP management. This is well beyond natural human capabilities. If it is shooting at you, it has INSTANT MAX PIPS to weapons, if it is turning away to run, INSTANT MAX PIP engines. It most likely can instant max PIP systems for every single individual round you fire at while switching between SYS and WEP max.
I like ENJOYABLE challenges that allow you to use varying methods to succeed, not cheap poor programming cheese "challenge" that pretty much allows the AI to exploit well beyond average human capabilities and sticks you into a single repetitive pattern/build to win. Reminds me of various fighting games where you have all these moves available but end up using only one surefire combo pattern because its the only one that works on the AI. Computer chess anyone?

Lower ranked AI doesnt even do ANY pip management AT ALL, never mind 'godlike perfect instant'. And pip management has nothing to do with power management, JManis even gave you a video to explain it. As Jesus said: lol.

I have the feeling if you were to fight other cmdrs you wouldn't do that well either...

 

[Jmanis]

It is because the AI has INSTANT PIP management. This is well beyond natural human capabilities.

It has nothing to do with pip management, and everything to do with power management, which can be done well in advance of a battle and doesn't need management in the battle.

EDIT: If you meant to say "Power distributor" instead of "Power Plant", then knocking the power distributor doesn't actually stop shields/thrusters/weapons recharging, it just maintains the last pip setting. Because it gets randomised during failures as it approaches zero, it usually lands on something which still renders all ship functions usable. It's a dud target in that regard.

 

[Aashenfox]

It is because the AI has INSTANT PIP management. This is well beyond natural human capabilities. If it is shooting at you, it has INSTANT MAX PIPS to weapons, if it is turning away to run, INSTANT MAX PIP engines. It most likely can instant max PIP systems for every single individual round you fire at while switching between SYS and WEP max.
I like ENJOYABLE challenges that allow you to use varying methods to succeed, not cheap poor programming cheese "challenge" that pretty much allows the AI to exploit well beyond average human capabilities and sticks you into a single repetitive pattern/build to win. Reminds me of various fighting games where you have all these moves available but end up using only one surefire combo pattern because its the only one that works on the AI. Computer chess anyone?

This is also wrong. Where are you getting these ideas? Why don't you do some research about what they can and can't do before making any more statements that are simply not true. Pip management is something that they get far better at as they go up in rank. What's more the favor eng pips until they reach dangerous, so they couldn't really be more squishy.

Oh, by the way, no real pip management is needed against the ai, but note that when I do it, it's very, very fast...this is the hardest encounter the game has to offer right now except thargoids (and in fact there is a three vulture, 1 ferdie version, which is slightly harder but they also have lower engineering to compensate).

Source: https://youtu.be/843jRydUG-w


Please accept that with a LOT more experience you will find the ai to be not challenging at all, and you'll probably wish they cheated more to make it a fairer fight...

 

[Cugastratos]

Lower ranked AI doesnt even do ANY pip management AT ALL, never mind 'godlike perfect instant'. And pip management has nothing to do with power management. As Jesus said: lol.

I have the feeling if you were to fight other cmdrs you wouldn't do that well either...

PvP and PvE are two completely different beasts that I've understood requires completely different builds and engineering. I'm not that big or interested in PvP unless I see changes to CQC (look at my other suggestion on this forum section). I rarely play open unless it's co-op with friends or I have enough time to goof around looking for new faces without running into gankers (thankfully I'm outside their time zone so I rarely see any).

 

[Ian Skippy]

PvP and PvE are two completely different beasts that I've understood requires completely different builds and engineering. I'm not that big or interested in PvP unless I see changes to CQC (look at my other suggestion on this forum section). I rarely play open unless it's co-op with friends or I have enough time to goof around looking for new faces without running into gankers (thankfully I'm outside their time zone so I rarely see any).

You forgot to respond to the part where you I told you you mixed up two different and very basic concepts, and again repeated stuff that factually isn't true. Honestly, when your understanding is so incredibly limited, why rant and rage instead of simply ask and learn?

 

[Ian Skippy]

Reminds me of various fighting games where you have all these moves available but end up using only one surefire combo pattern because its the only one that works on the AI. Computer chess anyone?

I am not sure if it is too off-topic, but that isn't how computer chess works either...

 

[Aashenfox]

PvP and PvE are two completely different beasts that I've understood requires completely different builds and engineering. I'm not that big or interested in PvP unless I see changes to CQC (look at my other suggestion on this forum section). I rarely play open unless it's co-op with friends or I have enough time to goof around looking for new faces without running into gankers (thankfully I'm outside their time zone so I rarely see any).

A pvp build is the highest build, a good one is huge overkill for any pve content. I even use my pvp build, unchanged except weapons, to fight thargoids, the defense is that good. The Krait in the video above is a pvp main of mine, also unchanged for that wing assassination. The point is when you get effective against players, the ai is little more than something to use your ammo on.

 

[metatheurgist]

It is because the AI has INSTANT PIP management. This is well beyond natural human capabilities. If it is shooting at you, it has INSTANT MAX PIPS to weapons, if it is turning away to run, INSTANT MAX PIP engines. It most likely can instant max PIP systems for every single individual round you fire at while switching between SYS and WEP max.
I like ENJOYABLE challenges that allow you to use varying methods to succeed, not cheap poor programming cheese "challenge" that pretty much allows the AI to exploit well beyond average human capabilities and sticks you into a single repetitive pattern/build to win. Reminds me of various fighting games where you have all these moves available but end up using only one surefire combo pattern because its the only one that works on the AI. Computer chess anyone?

Nope.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/so-called-improved-ai.247046/page-6#post-3852962

 

[Ian Skippy]

A pvp build is the highest build, a good one is huge overkill for any pve content. I even use my pvp build, unchanged except weapons, to fight thargoids, the defense is that good. The Krait in the video above is a pvp main of mine, also unchanged for that wing assassination. The point is when you get effective against players, the ai is little more than something to use your ammo on.

To add some nuance: While clearly good PvPers are more challenging than AI, I really doubt if the average Cmdr can beat elite AI in similar ships. An Elite rail Eagle Vs your typical Cmdr in the same rail-outfitted eagle? My money is on the npc...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

PvP and PvE are two completely different beasts that I've understood requires completely different builds and engineering.

Almost any PvP build will also mow down NPCs in PvE like they're made of paper.

It's more accurate to say that basically any combat build will work in PvE, whereas only a subset of them will also work in PvP.

 

[Aashenfox]

To add some nuance: While clearly good PvPers are more challenging than AI, I really doubt if the average Cmdr can beat elite AI in similar ships. An Elite rail Eagle Vs your typical Cmdr in the same rail-outfitted eagle? My money is on the npc...

Yeh I'd agree. Wait for someone to say they can spam railguns without heat issues. Lol.

(another commonly cited fallacy)

 

[SquirrelEyez]

@Factabulous, if I was a big streamer I'd have no issue putting up a video. Not that tech savvy with gamer streaming and posting videos of my gameplay yet. Eventually when I get the chance to capture it I will. Also it wasn't about the NPC running away, it was the fact it was running away with NO DRIVES... I mean 0% drives on all of it's thrusters, and it still boosted away. I also have drag drives on my missiles too. I'm no lying when I can say "I've seen THINGS" in this game lol
It won't die... it won't die... I'm shooting at it, but IT JUST WON'T DIE!!!!!

Don't worry about Factabulous.... he loves not reading posts and leaving "git gud" remarks.

 

[Cugastratos]

Where do I get the idea of AI INSTANT PIP management? I use autopilot on my type-9/ type-10/ Orca/ and Beluga. I've watched how auto pilot put up 2/4/0 in from anything else I have up in one click what takes me 3-4 to get to neutral then to the same settings.
Logic dictates that the Instant PIP ability is available to all the AI in the game. It explains why it seems to always have max firepower when attacking, max shields when tanking, and max thrust when boosting. I don't even know how perfect its' power distribution is, because not everyone knows how to perfectly engineer their own modules to compete or bring it up to par with PvE ships. And many of those that I have come across that do, have been tight lipped because it might give away a PvP build secret. So I have to bumble along until I might come across it myself.

 

[Factabulous]

Don't worry about Factabulous.... he loves not reading posts and leaving "git gud" remarks.

just sayin' - ad hominem attacks because no-one is agreeing with your false conclusions in your own thread don't make your position arguments look any stronger

 

[Aashenfox]

Where do I get the idea of AI INSTANT PIP management? I use autopilot on my type-9/ type-10/ Orca/ and Beluga. I've watched how auto pilot put up 2/4/0 in from anything else I have up in one click what takes me 3-4 to get to neutral then to the same settings.
Logic dictates that the Instant PIP ability is available to all the AI in the game. It explains why it seems to always have max firepower when attacking, max shields when tanking, and max thrust when boosting. I don't even know how perfect its' power distribution is, because not everyone knows how to perfectly engineer their own modules to compete or bring it up to par with PvE ships. And many of those that I have come across that do, have been tight lipped because it might give away a PvP build secret. So I have to bumble along until I might come across it myself.

I'll give u a top pvp build for any decent ship, by all means, I have top competitive builds for all the workable ships and I'm will known for my solid theorycrafting. Let me know which ship you'd like a build for.

(caveat: I do not give away Corvette builds, almost nobody builds them right and that knowledge is sacred)

Look again at my video, I start doing pip management in the second half of the fight (although not much), the macros I use to change pips that fast and accurately are also available to anyone and are not considered cheating by fd.

 

[Cugastratos]

I'm bounty hunting in solo/private in High/Haz RES in my type 10 (missile runner) which is great at destroying external modules (drives and weapons) which is why the FAS had no drives, but still boosted away twice. When I'm after internals (power plants mostly) I like using muh big cannon (Conda/Corvette) and I hang out in the Haz RES is where I can knock out the power plant and still watch some ships act like nothing happened. I guess I have to start targeting their power distributors too.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Where do I get the idea of AI INSTANT PIP management? I use autopilot on my type-9/ type-10/ Orca/ and Beluga. I've watched how auto pilot put up 2/4/0 in from anything else I have up in one click what takes me 3-4 to get to neutral then to the same settings.
Logic dictates that the Instant PIP ability is available to all the AI in the game. It explains why it seems to always have max firepower when attacking, max shields when tanking, and max thrust when boosting. I don't even know how perfect its' power distribution is, because not everyone knows how to perfectly engineer their own modules to compete or bring it up to par with PvE ships. And many of those that I have come across that do, have been tight lipped because it might give away a PvP build secret. So I have to bumble along until I might come across it myself.

If only we knew who coded the AI, and if only that mysterious person would have explicitly explained how pip management work for NPCs. Oh well, guess we'll never know for sure so I'll just take your guesswork as truth instead.

 

[Ian Skippy]

[...] I hang out in the Haz RES is where I can knock out the power plant and still watch some ships act like nothing happened. I guess I have to start targeting their power distributors too.

People have explained how PP damage works, how power management works, what happens when the PD is blown etc, and you still keep this up? Impressive!

 

[Aashenfox]

I'm bounty hunting in solo/private in High/Haz RES in my type 10 (missile runner) which is great at destroying external modules (drives and weapons) which is why the FAS had no drives, but still boosted away twice. When I'm after internals (power plants mostly) I like using muh big cannon (Conda/Corvette) and I hang out in the Haz RES is where I can knock out the power plant and still watch some ships act like nothing happened. I guess I have to start targeting their power distributors too.

You shouldn't need to target their modules, even in a T10, your missile based loadout is the problem, not enough pure dps. Missiles are utility, not damage. They apply drag or thermal cascade (both of which hurt NPCs badly) and damage (most importantly) hardpoints very severely. Keep two and aim for the weapons, change the rest for overcharged MCs.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Lol? Factabulous is one of the most measured parts I take it you also made a thread of questionable accuracy? If so, suck it up. It's our responsibility (we who know) to distribute the correct information. Would you prefer we left your galaxies unchallenged and allowed you to

Squirrel complained that NPCs respawn with full shields/hull (which is true and annoying) and then claimed this made it impossible to deliver cargo while flying a conda. He didn't like the answers he got, and now he is salty.