If I had a credit for every time someone who has never left the bubble made this claim, I'd be ready to afford a Fleet Carrier by now.
Could or should Frontier enhance the FSS or add in and incorporate an optional ADS-like expansion module?
- Thread starter WR3ND
- Start date
What's the orrery but a second hand emotion?
What's the orrery got to do, got to do with it
Who needs the orrery when the orrery can be broken ?
That's true for almost everything in the game. Large MCs are an upgrade for my trade ship because I can use it to repel pirates. So it's not a combat improvement but a trading improvement...
Yup, I guess it was too late to take feedback into account.Meanwhile consider this:
https://elitedangerous2016.wordpress.com/2018/05/02/focused-feedback-forums-livestreams/
And then consider this:
Important enough to spend a considerable amount of time on creating a complete overhaul for exploration mechanics, which is exactly what the vocal part of the exploration community asked them to do.
That's why I agree with the idea of a compromise. The best thing you can do to achieve that is to tell people like Burke they should shut up, because he doesn't help at all with his whining and insults. (hey Burke, sorry, I love you just as much as I love Ziggy!). Maybe we should start with 'Hey Frontier, thanks for listening to our feedback. We now realise that our feedback was wrong!'My biggest gripe is not that exploration isn't like 4 years ago. My biggest gripe is that they removed a module that provides me with information I need to enjoy exploring.
Again, I actually like the FSS mechanics, I actually like being able to locate POIs, I actually like the probe solution.
Again, because it seems I need to state this over and over and over again
If they wouldn't care for exploration they wouldn't waste time on it. It's probably true that they don't care for your individual exploration style though...edit: By the way, my claim is also they don't care about exploration ("FDev doesn't give a rats about exploration "). I wouldn't claim they didn't do anything for exploration. So, please, get that right as well
Anyway, if you want to understand my position (if there is any) it probably helps when I tell you how I remember it.
Over the last 4 years, the entirety of the vocal exploration community (not everyone, but those were loud enough to get noticed by me) claimed that the ADS is a shallow placeholder and an insult to exploration. I've seen lots of people suggesting a complete overhaul, including detailed concepts which are almost identical to the current implementation. There was nothing but praise for these proposals and the very few people who did say the ADS is good as it is were quickly silenced with the white knight bat (which coincidentally is the same thing that happens now to those who like the FSS). It's possible there was a silent majority who didn't think the ADS needs to go, but they were silent. This got most apparent when Sandro said they are happy with the state of exploration and everyone was like 'you can't say that you are really happy with the shallow ADS nonsense or you don't care for exploraiton!!!'.
Only after the FSS announcement people actually voiced their opinion about how awesome the ADS is and how they love the associated 'gameplay'.
So when people say FDEV doesn't listen to feedback or they don't care for exploration that's COMPLETE NONSENSE. Does that mean everything is perfect? Nope. Can we please everyone and find an agreeable solution? Probably not, but we can try. If we want to get there we need to stop acting like butthurt spoiled brats and start to realise what got us into the situation in the first place: acting like butthurt spoiled brats and demanding changes without knowing what they imply. The best thing that can happen for those who want the ADS back is a mature discussion without name calling, accusations and insults. 'You don't care for me' and 'Everything you do is wrong' isn't the best way to get what you want.
PS
And yes, I know that not everything I said applies to you, which is why I blame T.j. for this mess.
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Check the date:
Exploration/Codex
18th June
So, yeah, you're right. After they postponed the Exploration Focused Feedback by 6 months, also favouring an Open Only Powerplay grenade dud, it was too late to take feedback into account.
After 4 years, they did indeed rush a considerable amount of content.
Shut up! I will never tell anyone to shut up.
Which feedback did they listen to?
If they would care about exploration they would have given it as much of a stage as the 7 other topics that were discussed. In the order of things, they care more about Powerplay than exploration. And you can ask the fellers who play powerplay how much Frontier cares about that.If they wouldn't care for exploration they wouldn't waste time on it. It's probably true that they don't care for your individual exploration style though...
The way I remember it is that people wanted additions to exploration. The ADS was less slighted than the DSS was. There always been the ADS is God Mode camp and the ADS Is Just The Start camp. These two always have been arguing about that. There was no uniform sentiment towards the ADS. And I have been involved with these discussions a lot, so I'm pretty sure it's not as one sided as you claim. There were multiple sentiments towards the ADS
This is simply wrong: " and everyone was like 'you can't say that you are really happy with the shallow ADS nonsense or you don't care for exploraiton!!!'" many simply wanted more tools, not tools taken away from them. And notice how I shy away from terms like "majority" and 'minority".
You are miss-remembering.
Except the Focused feedback Cycle shows exactly that.
Couple of things. Calling people butthurt spoiled brats doesn't help either. Projecting it onto the person doesn't help ('You don't care for me', instead of "you don't care for exploration"). using hyperbole doesn't help ('Everything you do is wrong' instead of 'removing the ADS altogether is wrong)
Here's a tip, when you rightfully state that using name calling and insults doesn't help the conversation, don't use name calling and insults
edit: Oh, and FYI, I'm way past the stage of expecting I get what I want. I have accepted a long time ago, that isn't going to happen.
I'm just here because I'm a forum addict.
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The only feature that got less love than exploration is powerplay... Also see how the focues feedback for PP helped. Not at all.
The feedback of the exploration community. Not their fault that you lot can't agree about anything...
With all due respect (which is not much, since you are a pillock and a plonker!), that's a bit pointless.
I can just describe how it appeared to an 'outsider', which is probably how FDEV saw the feedback as well...
The focused feedback cycle was mostly nonsense. It just helped those who constantly complain they aren't talking to us and even that failed.
Good point, but you forgot that I am above all things and always tell the truth!Couple of things. Calling people butthurt spoiled brats doesn't help either. Projecting it onto the person doesn't help ('You don't care for me', instead of "you don't care for exploration"). using hyperbole doesn't help ('Everything you do is wrong' instead of 'removing the ADS altogether is wrong)
Here's a tip, when you rightfully state that using name calling and insults doesn't help the conversation, don't use name calling and insults
Gunning for common ground here!
Hammer, meet nail
edit: Hang on, I got your back
I just want to watch the world burn Mr. Babelfisch.
Proudly so.
Indeed. As an outsider.
Hammer, meet nail
edit: Hang on, I got your back
I just want to watch the world burn Mr. Babelfisch.
Yup. The last thing he did was going through his previous discoveries, back in January. A month later, he returned, cashed in some twenty billion from the sale, remarked that it was nuts how he earned more credits in a month (although it was at a frantic tempo, in my opinion) than he did in several years, and then he quit exploring, and playing. The last EDSM updates from him were at the end of this February, eight months ago.Unfortunately, I suspect he may have given up on the game since the changes to exploration.
As for whether the focused feedback cycle was useless: this will be a bit cynical, but I think it was quite useful for one more thing not mentioned here before: showing us how Frontier prioritised the exploration update down for the sake of other projects. Most likely JWE, which AFAIK had to go to crunch to make its June 2018 release date. Not that I'd fault FD for this though: if I had to choose between making sure that a new game of a global IP makes its release date, or making sure that a free update to an existing game doesn't fall behind schedule, I'd go with the first without much hesitation.
Ill bet the vast majority of players had no idea the FSS was coming. If you didnt go on the beta server (there was one right?) then you just didnt know about the FSS and had no opportunity for feedback.
Its just my personal opinion but i think somebody at fdev has issues with their attitude towards exploration. Like it wasnt really a valid play style or something. Well that was wrong.
By the way, a little bit of nuance ... when I say FDev doesn't care about exploration, I am talking about the company entity. I am talking about marketing and business decisions. And exploration isn't a sexy marketable part of the game with chases and explosions.
I am sure there are quite a few developers who care a lot about exploration.
I am sure there are quite a few developers who care a lot about exploration.
True, my comment was regarding feedback prior to the FSS announcement, from what I've seen most posts were like 'the ADS is a shallow placeholder mechanic, please overhaul exploration'.
They probably thought nobody was happy with the state of exploration, it's what I thought as well after reading hundreds of 'where is the love' posts. Up until the FSS debacle I wasn't even aware that some people like the ADS gameplay (apart from the so called white knights).
There isn't any ADS gameplay, so there is no ADS gameplay to like. Players are missing the information the ADS provides, on which they based their gameplay.
I think many are confusing the ADS and DSS here. The DSS gameplay (point and wait) was complained heavily about. And the FSS is an improvement in that regard.
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Usually I say 'gameplay' regarding the ADS but I thought it's inappropriate in that case because it's not the point I wanted to make.
One thing I forgot: there are some people saying that exploration was completely overhauled, but that's false. The mechanics for scanning bodies were overhauled, but other parts of exploration weren't overhauled. For example, the mechanics of travel weren't, despite the monotony of that (still) being the most common complaint about exploration ("JJJJJJJJJ"), nor was the interaction with body data - the selling of it.
I suppose the DSS could be counted as an overhaul of finding things planetside, but there really wasn't anything to overhaul there.
I mean, the FSS didn't replace much, it wedged in new things to do instead. What it did replace is that instead of using the system map, you have to use the FSS barcode. (Which, when you think about it, is less complex.) Otherwise, you still have to honk exactly the same way as you did (ever wonder why?), and then you get to press the FSS button. The dead simple "fly in range and point your ship at the planet" mechanic has been replaced with the simple "set your slider and point the camera at planet, at any range" or "fly into auto-scanning range, not necessarily pointing at the planet".
Personally, I complained about that dead simple mechanic too. At least one small good point of the FSS is that you get to look at the planet closer when you are scanning it. However, as I tend to say, Frontier could and should do better than either the ADS or the FSS, plus the new DSS.
Imagine if they added a new mechanic where after buying cargo, you'd be forced to manually place them in your cargo hold. Not "you can use the old insta-loading method, but then you only get 90% cargo space", but the new trading mini-game being mandatory. And that would be the trade overhaul, plus maybe some new rares added.
I suppose the DSS could be counted as an overhaul of finding things planetside, but there really wasn't anything to overhaul there.
Seeing that there has been no gameplay there, it's more that the added gameplay on top of the placeholder "mechanic" is for many intents and purposes worse.
I mean, the FSS didn't replace much, it wedged in new things to do instead. What it did replace is that instead of using the system map, you have to use the FSS barcode. (Which, when you think about it, is less complex.) Otherwise, you still have to honk exactly the same way as you did (ever wonder why?), and then you get to press the FSS button. The dead simple "fly in range and point your ship at the planet" mechanic has been replaced with the simple "set your slider and point the camera at planet, at any range" or "fly into auto-scanning range, not necessarily pointing at the planet".
Personally, I complained about that dead simple mechanic too. At least one small good point of the FSS is that you get to look at the planet closer when you are scanning it. However, as I tend to say, Frontier could and should do better than either the ADS or the FSS, plus the new DSS.
Imagine if they added a new mechanic where after buying cargo, you'd be forced to manually place them in your cargo hold. Not "you can use the old insta-loading method, but then you only get 90% cargo space", but the new trading mini-game being mandatory. And that would be the trade overhaul, plus maybe some new rares added.
Fairy muff. I keep hammering about it, not as much as a response to you, but because some people keep using the red herring: "the FSS is better than holding a button for 5 seconds". As if that's the argument.
The player still has to hold the button & honk anyway. Either in supercruise before entering the FSS Scanner Screen or after entering, to populate it.
In systems where the map & nav panel are already populated ironically the honk is not longer mandatory, you can just fly to the body to resolve it.
I think it's just that the FSS gameplay is simply not in quite the right place...
It would be fine if you engaged in it because there was something you wanted to investigate (which is already the case for ELW's and so on), but to engage in it to find out if there's something you want to investigate seems backwards.
The assertion that we are uncovering the system map isn't really quite correct. To be fair, if you see uncovering the system map as a goal, then it's great. However, once you've uncovered the system map using the FSS you have discovered, probably tagged, the system, that's a whole lot further than you ever got by honking the ADS which as everybody knows, simply showed you a bunch of unexplored bodies.
It would be fine if you engaged in it because there was something you wanted to investigate (which is already the case for ELW's and so on), but to engage in it to find out if there's something you want to investigate seems backwards.
The assertion that we are uncovering the system map isn't really quite correct. To be fair, if you see uncovering the system map as a goal, then it's great. However, once you've uncovered the system map using the FSS you have discovered, probably tagged, the system, that's a whole lot further than you ever got by honking the ADS which as everybody knows, simply showed you a bunch of unexplored bodies.
Right now the FSS for me is primarily used (when it is used) to reveal the system map, then based on the system map I decide whether or not I want to explore the system. At least 95% of the time, though likely more, I decide I don't want to explore the system in person flying my ship around it and checking stuff out, so for me the actual exploration aspect of exploration, as I see it, took a big hit, sacrificed for the convenience of tagging and the game-play of the FSS which I don't find particularly engaging and compelling.
People complain about supercruising out to worlds, but at least that got players out into systems, and with the ADS, at least those were systems they wanted to be in.
It's a pragmatic issue, not just an altruistic one. There are a lot of systems between Beagle Point and Colonia where I'm headed.
People complain about supercruising out to worlds, but at least that got players out into systems, and with the ADS, at least those were systems they wanted to be in.
It's a pragmatic issue, not just an altruistic one. There are a lot of systems between Beagle Point and Colonia where I'm headed.
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