Sick of not knowing!!

[B1rdy]

To date, I've never used premium synth for anything other than jump range and I seem to do okay. Most organised PvP doesn't allow anything other than basic synth with no added damage. While you can't predict that people you're fighting against in organic won't be running premiums, you also can't predict that they won't be running a trainer to give their damage a permanent buff anyway.

But that can't be an excuse to not províde more information to the attacked player. Actually it could rather help the attacked player to identify a hacker.

Regardless of whether or not they're using these methods to increase their damage potential the biggest difference is whether or not they can actually hit in the first place. The more you do organic PvP the more you'll get a feel for the difference between people who can fly well, people who have strong builds, and people who are punching above their weight based on what they have available to them - and you'll also learn to avoid the more toxic people.

And this is, what makes it hard to recognize, at least during the beginning of a fight.

Edit:

yeah i suppose i hide from the imbalances somewhat by ignoring a huge part of engineering - i do the parts that are important to me and ignore the rest.... that is not really possible for PvP however.

And even then you are affected, because in some situations the game confronts you with engineered bullet-sponge enemies.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I think its only problematic if two players are trying to stage a fair fight. It's basically a mystery for you to solve and puzzle over if the fight didn't go your way I can see how that might irritate some players.

 

[Voracity_T]

Premium should be straight up removed.

Its reached he point now where people are actively lying about using it. I encounter several people who seem to be able to eat 20% of 4900 hull per volley but insist they are running legit ammo.

I'm all for the basic synth and all for the standard synth (Though that should not provide a damage increase, merely double the mats for basic, just still giving a full load up), But premium? That ish has to go.

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

Are you posting in the wrong topic?

Like also having to stop combat in order to grind for some mats you need in order to level the playing field.

Nope. I was responding to a comment about the "cut-throat galaxy" made by another user. But since it's you, I'll get back on topic: I find it amusing to ask for such a thing. We are not shown whether or not somebody has engineered modules, and certainly many PVPers do not particularly care whether those they attack have engineered ships, in the first place.

Personally, I don't mind a little surprise every now and then, and let's be honest, the grind for premium ammo is CONSIDERABLY less than for the engineers. Yeah, the latter only need to be done once, but even so. Let's take premium for multicannon -- Antimony, the rarest stuff, I can pick up by the bucketful in less than two hours. Provided RNG is merciful, I can have between 30 and 60 by then. Plenty of reloads. I couldn't possibly unlock all the important engineers in that time frame . . . matter of fact, it took me a lot, a whole lot longer than that. (I'm also partial to driving around an SRV these days, so I absolutely do not mind doing that.)

So, NO, I do not think that is necessary, or even desirable. You click on Open, you agree to be somebody else's content, and all that. Live with the consequences.

 

[Rat Catcher]

So, NO, I do not think that is necessary, or even desirable. You click on Open, you agree to be somebody else's content, and all that. Live with the consequences.

It is desirable only for those who PvP - for a PvE player there will be no complaint from a NPC that you are using Premium/Engineering

From @Aashenfox's coment it would appear that even the PvP community may not always 'play fair' with each other....

 

[Deleted member 192138]

But that can't be an excuse to not províde more information to the attacked player. Actually it could rather help the attacked player to identify a hacker.

And this is, what makes it hard to recognize, at least during the beginning of a fight.

If it's in the game it should be made clear that someone is using it in a PvP encounter. I agree with that. But I also think that it shouldn't be in the game full stop.

In PvP it introduces yet another element of pointless grind to meet uncertainty of the encounter you'll be facing or gain a synthetic advantage which is based neither on skill nor build strength.

In PvE it introduces yet another element of pointless grind to deal with difficulty increased by a damage sponge approach rather than challenging mechanics. It doesn't encourage or motivate players to build better balanced/counter build ships nor fly better.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Its hardly surprising though in PvP unless you trust your opponent then I would say the chances are quite high they will use whatever edge they can. In competitive PC gaming scenarios (even as a hobby) people pay for higher spec gear for example, fair doesn't come into it. Tournaments I'd agree its a problem but it could be solved using Shadow Play or screen recording.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

It is desirable only for those who PvP - for a PvE player there will be no complaint from a NPC that you are using Premium/Engineering

From @Aashenfox's coment it would appear that even the PvP community may not always 'play fair' with each other....

If you thought for half a second from a wider perspective you may stop to consider the sort of gameplay mechanics PvE engages you in if premium synth is treated as necessary or core gameplay. That is where the issue is with premium in PvE, not whether or not an NPC is insulted. But apparently these forums are not a place that encourages critical thinking.

 

[M00ka]

So in the PvP world, it is just assumed that any ship you encounter will be G5 100% engineered to the rafters? Or will the next round of demands be to have some form of indicator on the hud to show if the ship you are attacking/being attacked by has G5 Kinetic Resistant Shields with Thermo block experimentals, or that the Sensor has a G5 Long Range mod fitted? To my muddled mind, information like that would be just as vital as knowing if the target was using premium ammo or not.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

In general in PvP you assume that ships you encounter will be engineered G3-5, though generally more towards G5. There are unwritten rules of fairplay - don't use SLFs because they still often cause lag in instances, regeneration beams and concordant are broadly regarded as overpowered, and pack-hounds kill hulltanks in organic PvP so if you use them you're part of why prismatic FDLs are quite so dominant so thanks for that. Of course not every group or individual conforms to fairplay - SLFs are mostly used by people fresh into PvP from a PvE background, regen beams and concordant are used by specific groups who don't see an issue or for occasional memes and there are plenty of people happy to use pack-hounds because they don't want a game with fun and variety I guess. If is pretty obvious when each of these are in play.

You would generally assume people you're fighting in organic aren't running premiums though you'll start to figure out that specific individuals either always do, or are likely to switch to using premium if they're not going to win otherwise. Of course there's no way of knowing other than having a good idea of how different builds work, what their potential is, and what your opponent is likely to be running in terms of engineering etc. There's also no way of knowing if someone has premiums or a damage buff from running a trainer alongside the game.

It would be hard to indicate general engineering in the same way because if someone has just their shield engineered a little bit versus the entire ship engineered to the hind teeth? How would this difference be shown accurately and briefly in a combat situation? You will get an idea about specific weapons due to the status effects you receive when taking damage (thermal weapons, target lock breaker, drag munitions, phasing etc) which is displayed on an icon under your ship hologram.

 

[Rat Catcher]

If it's in the game it should be made clear that someone is using it in a PvP encounter. I agree with that. But I also think that it shouldn't be in the game full stop.

In PvE it introduces yet another element of pointless grind to deal with difficulty increased by a damage sponge approach rather than challenging mechanics. It doesn't encourage or motivate players to build better balanced/counter build ships nor fly better.

No issue with your opinion, of course, being your own, it is absolutely correct and right for you.


Why the concern in PvE if you are a PvP player? Why should a PvE player be concerned to build better balanced/counter ships if, essentially, the most engineered PvE NPC is so predictable? As for 'fly better' - anyone but a new player will 'fly better' than a NPC... Just accept that those who have little/no interest in PvP will not play the game the way you would have it be, and will take advantage of every 'boost' as and when.

As for pointless grind for Premium Ammo? How much would you consider is needed, and why 'grind' for it?

Enjoy your chosen playstyle, that is fine, but do try to remember that the majority of players do not play PvP exclusively/regularly/if ever and thave no need of the 'skillz' to the extent you may need

 

[Rat Catcher]

If you thought for half a second from a wider perspective you may stop to consider the sort of gameplay mechanics PvE engages you in if premium synth is treated as necessary or core gameplay. That is where the issue is with premium in PvE, not whether or not an NPC is insulted. But apparently these forums are not a place that encourages critical thinking.

Sorry - why should I stop and consider anything afrom any prespective apart from my own? It is a game and I'll play how I wish. There is no issue in Premium in PvE play as it is by choice... Being frank, I don't actually care if the PvP players hate it, it is in my game and I shall use it whenever I please...

And when did I ever mention Premium being 'Core Gameplay'? - it is not a term I'd use WRT this game - as the 'core' certainly isn't combat...

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Why the concern in PvE if you are a PvP player?

Have I ever said I am exclusively and have only ever been one thing or the other?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

It is desirable only for those who PvP - for a PvE player there will be no complaint from a NPC that you are using Premium/Engineering

From @Aashenfox's coment it would appear that even the PvP community may not always 'play fair' with each other....

Never read the NPC forums have you? They complain all the time.

 

[B1rdy]

Mis-quote deleted.

 

[Northpin]

Premium should be straight up removed.

Its reached he point now where people are actively lying about using it. I encounter several people who seem to be able to eat 20% of 4900 hull per volley but insist they are running legit ammo.

I'm all for the basic synth and all for the standard synth (Though that should not provide a damage increase, merely double the mats for basic, just still giving a full load up), But premium? That ish has to go.

This ^^
Yes.

 

[B1rdy]

No issue with your opinion, of course, being your own, it is absolutely correct and right for you.

What Barnard posted is not so much an opinion, but more like general rules of game design. There are articles about that and some really good youtube channels on that topic.

Why the concern in PvE if you are a PvP player? Why should a PvE player be concerned to build better balanced/counter ships if, essentially, the most engineered PvE NPC is so predictable? As for 'fly better' - anyone but a new player will 'fly better' than a NPC... Just accept that those who have little/no interest in PvP will not play the game the way you would have it be, and will take advantage of every 'boost' as and when.

I has already been explained and it can be proven, that balance in PvE and PvP is a coherent topic. Engineers have inflated hitpoint so much, that ammo capacity is a real problem, both in PvE and PvP. Regarding Wing missions: I am by far not the best pilot in the world, but I can do them alone, being in a small ship - this can't be considered 'working as intended'.

As for pointless grind for Premium Ammo? How much would you consider is needed, and why 'grind' for it?

Imagine you are playing in open in a decently engineered ship, that you have already proven to be quite successful, without premium ammo. Now, you encounter an enemy CMDR flying a ship with a similar loadout. He is opening fire on you. You know you have the skill and the loadout to potentially beat, but would you engage in the fight knowing, that he has a 30% damage advantage?

The problem with premium ammo is both the absurd damage buff of 30% and the way you need engage with the game in order to get the mats for it. If FDev turned the grind down for that, PvE content would also be alot more in trouble, because the 30% increased damage buff might be considered standard by players.
Maybe this is already considered by FDev and they pretty much expect players to use premium ammo all the time. But then again, it is questionable design, to have players stop combat constantly for scooping up mats awkwardly.

Sorry - why should I stop and consider anything afrom any prespective apart from my own? It is a game and I'll play how I wish. There is no issue in Premium in PvE play as it is by choice... Being frank, I don't actually care if the PvP players hate it, it is in my game and I shall use it whenever I please...

When discussing a game, you should always consider every aspect of it. If you don't do that and only vote for things, that in favour of your playstyle, you might break other part of the game other people use preferrably. Because in the end, the game needs a healthy player base in order to stay relevant for the company to maintain.

Never read the NPC forums have you? They complain all the time.

Of course they do, since their ships aren't allowed to be as fast, durable, strong and they don't have FA off.

 

[Morbad]

From @Aashenfox's coment it would appear that even the PvP community may not always 'play fair' with each other....

Like most labels, 'PvPer' is quite subjective and there is no single, unified, community.

Because I rarely participate in organized matches, rarely go out of my way to have my CMDR look for trouble, and don't visit Discord servers or clubs on third party sites, there are those that flatly consider me not a PvPer, even if I may have three times their PvP experience.

Conversely, there are those that automatically dismiss any concern I have as coming from a PvPer because I keep my CMDR in Open and am not adverse to having him engage other CMDRs when the situation, from my character's perspective, calls for it.

Why the concern in PvE if you are a PvP player?

My CMDR may have been in a few thousand engagements with other CMDRs and I may use other CMDRs as a benchmark, but that doesn't mean my CMDR hasn't also fought many tens of thousands of NPCs, or that fighting other CMDRs is the entirety of what I have my CMDR do.

Why should a PvE player be concerned to build better balanced/counter ships if, essentially, the most engineered PvE NPC is so predictable?

Because predictable foes are less entertaining (it's the difference between gameplay and a grid wall really) and PvE does not exclude PvP.

You know you have the skill and the loadout to potentially beat, but would you engage in the fight knowing, that he has a 30% damage advantage?

Gnerally, I assume premium ammo is a distinct possibility any time I encounter a hostile CMDR with any weapons that use ammo.

I have a whole slew of complaints about synthesis. Indeed, I think synthesis, all of it, should never have existed in it's current form. Materials should have mass and require cargo capacity, while synthesis should require an optional internal module (with mass and power consumption) and require at least an order of magnitude longer than it does. 3rd printing combat consumables on the fly never made any sense.

That said, those complaints all revolve around what I consider plausible. When it comes to pure balance, that constant grind seems like a sensible trade-off for the damage increase...or at least would if there weren't as many shortcuts to it. Not knowing if they have it or not doesn't bother me any more than any other unknowable. In some form of organized, measured, contest or assessment, I'm going to need to trust my opponents anyway; that they are adhering to any terms, that they are going to be open and honest about anything that could introduce any form of bias one way or the other, so that we can all understand the situation as completely as possible. If it's a more organic encounter, then all I can rationally expect is that they'll adhere to the rules of the game...it would be silly for my CMDR to expect any in-character consideration from someone he's trying to kill, or vice versa.

 

[Rat Catcher]

.... snipped some very good comments/opinions

When discussing a game, you should always consider every aspect of it. If you don't do that and only vote for things, that in favour of your playstyle, you might break other part of the game other people use preferrably. But we have already seen a small part of the player base 'vote' down a feature they 'disagreed' with, with no consideration given to other styles of play...


Because in the end, the game needs a healthy player base in order to stay relevant for the company to maintain. True - but 'wastage' of new players is allegedly high, sales happen but player retention not necessarily...

It has been interesting reading the responses to a series of posts worded to elicit such responses
Differing viewpoints raised, some very reasonable ones too.

Don't we all play 'as we wish'? Arguments for 'balance' in whatever, for whatever reason, are still a rejection of something another may consider perfectly reasonable, the game (for all of its foibles) gives enough variety of activities for players to bring in new revenue as has been illustrated by sales figures published in Frontier Accounts. Player wastage is expected and happens for every game, sooner or later ED will go the way of other games, regardless of current player wishes.

I'm very selfish, at no point in my play do I consider the parts I have no interest in to be of consequence to me... I just play a game I have bought and enjoy what I'm doing.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

If you just enjoy what you're doing and keep your head buried then why oppose people who pay attention wanting to balance the game around you? Your assumption that arguments for game balancing are only to further an individual's playstyle is based on your own ego-centric perspective on game activities. Most of the arguments about game balancing from people in some way connected with the PvP community are centred around lowering the barrier for entry and making more ship styles viable to improve the health of the community and game as a whole. So you reject it out of contrarian principle and because you dislike anyone you associate as a PvPer rather than reasoned argument.