Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

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Lolno. Majority of the games don't do it precisely because it is harmful to the pace of development since it cripples focused testing. CIG is doing it because they have no idea how to make game development happen properly. Actual game companies don't do it because that's just not how things are done if you're even remotely sane or professional.

This is not a matter of half-way broken, half-way implemented, or in a very early state. It's a matter of deciding to include a feature that not only flat out does not work, but does not work in such a way that it breaks all other things connected to it. Being that incompetent in what you roll out to testers is indeed newsworthy.

This is not correct. CIG opens up to EVO, PTU and LIVE after their gamebranch has mostly finished the core development and they need further multiplayer testing that their internal QA can't cover. And majority of the studios do the same thing but they just do it internally and for live games they only do experimental/ptu builds before sending it to the masses. What CIG is doing is adapted to the conditions of a LIVE game that is an Alpha.

Gamedev branch > Evocati > PTU > Live.

It is one of the best ways to do it and it allowed them to really prepare everything developed internally in the past 3-6 months into a live environment. The studios I worked in had a similar process but we had fewer steps. It went from gamedev to a public opt-in testing build to a live patch. Evo is just one step closer to the gamedev branch and is absolutely necessary because SC is being developed on an engine that is constantly changing which increases the amount of issues they face and in turn increases the need of testing.

It's pretty professional just more public. Also CIG has a lot of ex-Ubisoft, Crytek, Blizzard, Rockstar, Techland, CD Projekt people. It has many developers who worked at other AAA companies.

Dear sir, are you saying that PU that is accessible to all backers is, actually, NOT Alpha?

I mean, really? Given how broken it is, it's not Alpha? We are doomed.

The LIVE build is the Alpha state. EVO is a few steps forward of Pre-Alpha as some functionality is still being wrapped up with user feedback and testing. It's just different cycles. I talked to several CIG devs and they said that everytime they go from the live build release back to gamedev branch to develop the next quarterly patch a lot of the stuff breaks down again. Which is normal because they are constantly iterating and developing new things. So each quarterly patch requires an extensive testing and fixing process to get to that Alpha standard even.

Developing a game that is also developing an engine is immensely complicated. Some of my colleagues that had to update their game's to the latest UE version spent half a year doing so and that is not even developing new things just updating. CI is in this position every quarter and they have to always pass through the gates to get that LIVE patch we play.

Glad to hear you had a good time. You dont have any photos to share I take it?

I have several! Here you go.

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There is more if you guys are interested. Stuff from the main stage, hall and other places.

Did you see the Crobear on the wall? Did you get to meet bag on head man? Did you clip through any walls or get killed by any ramps?

Sadly missed the cosplay stage to see the other talk on the Croshaw Auditorium. Yea I got to talk to Chris for a bit. Much shorter compared to the 2015 but he is very happy and excited. Pretty much the same person and energy like the one from four years ago. I asked some questions about meshing and how that will finally kick things off at a real MMO scale. He said that it is a challenge and that he wants it more than anything. Though his expectation was about a year of development to go on.

Gotta say last time I got killed by a ramp or clipped through a wall in SC has been a year or so. But the event place didn't have any glitches luckily :D

Signs of life at CIG. Maybe the rumors are true and Chris has been divorced from development.

From some of the directors and leads I talked to it seems like Chris still has a lot of input and engagement in the project.

Did you have a good chat with Erin Roberts (Director of CIG's largest studio, located in Manchester) and/or Sandi Gardiner (VP of Marketing) during the Manchester CitizenCon, Star Citizen's most important annual marketing event?

Saw him but didn't get to chat with him sadly. I wanted to but he was with his wife and kid right infront of us. Didn't want to be too annoying. Our last chat back in 15 was great but this time I didn't get a chance to talk to him. Also saw Ortwin around as well and didn't catch him either.

C'mon guys, CitizenCon (Con!) is over, don't mock Mr. Nowak over it. At least he answered the call.

Yeah, about calls. Remember "Calling all devs" that was canceled a year ago? Are they still not answering?

I mean live and let live right. I appreciate any convention and community event in the gaming industry. You have a lot of passionate people come together and finally see face to face after hundreds if not thousands of hours of playing games together. Also with CitizenCon you have much more contact with devs. I spent several hours talking to a few and even saw developers from Creative Assembly, Rockstar Studios and Ubisoft that were backers who were attending! That was insane.

--

Overall I was very satisfied with the event. Glad that they showed the jump point and remained true to the concept of it.

Planet v4 and SOCS v1 is coming with 3.8 which is exciting. Talked about the tech to some of the devs who said that the immediate effect should be notable but that the tech would best work if 50 players were in one area as the entire server would be unloaded and that one container would only be active. Yet even when 50 players spread out to the most taxing containers, the majority of the system won't be loaded leading to better network performance overall.

I was expecting SOCS to come in 3.9 from all the messaging of CIG but they are pushing the initial implementation out. That is positive. We are getting more detailed mining with new heads, melee combat and non-lethal takedowns, multi-crew mining with the Mole, MicroTech the planet, Orbital space stations with habs to spawn in, More detailed missions like hostage rescue, Paying fines for the detailed law system, Rest-stop interiors and a lot of other stuff.

Oh and most importantly. Platform persistence for in-game cash earning and purchases allowing them to reset databases less in a quarterly cycle or even not wipe between two quarterly patches. This was received very well because many players are now grinding ships and renting stuff. The wipes are discouraging for people that actively progress now to get the bigger and more rewarding cargo ships.

Curious to see if they will break the 40mil record this year. Not long to go until the end of December...
 
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Or Erin for that matter. But I assume they're very hard at work, making sure the next big update has everything, including the items that were kicked down the line from previous patches.
 
It’s only $400, it was a steal at that price! Let’s say it was $500, and I played on average 4 hours per week, (I play a lot mare than that I believe), since I bought the ship at the last expo I’ve spent less per hour playing the game then buying a venti chai tea latte at StarBucks.

So if over the course of 1 year you put $5 a day in a SC fund you would have over $1800 saved up now to spend at this expo. That’s a lot of nice ships.

Or you could drink tea daily!

My, i wish i could say that "its only $400".

Ok, you have disposable income in the region of hundreds of dollars, but you can't see how charging hundreds of dollars for in game progression is absoloutely outrageous? Especially for a feature that doesn't even exist.

On the upside, at this this ship is flyable... poor BMM owners.
 
About the Evo stuff.... They will get most of the stuff running at an Alpha state for the LIVE patch as they did with most patches
The LIVE build is the Alpha state. EVO is a few steps forward of Pre-Alpha
Excuse me, dear sir, but you do contradict yourself here. Please don't do that, we already have Roberts for that role.
the tech would best work if 50 players were in one area as the entire server would be unloaded and that one container would only be active
they are pushing the initial implementation out
Sad to hear all that given the initial fundraising proposals and time spent.
 
This is not correct.
Yes it is.
You do not roll out a feature for testing that you know breaks the testing. You don't do that because, well, it breaks the testing. It defeats the purpose of rolling it out. Only one studio does this, internally or externally: CIG. For all other studios, this is one of those “ok, roll back testing branch and keep plugging at it until it's possible to test it” moments. While it was said in passing years ago, it has been hinted that CIG doesn't — or didn't at the time — actually know how to do that, which is another thing that demonstrates their incompetence and unprofessionalism.

This has nothing to do with “alpha” vs. “pre-alpha” vs. “live.” This has to do with deliberately breaking the game for no good reason other than to score a cheap, false, PR victory. It's a matter of intent, not process.

It's pretty professional just more public.
This is not correct.
It is in every way and by every definition unprofessional to hand testers something they cannot use for testing because it breaks if they try to do their job.

Also CIG has a lot of ex-Ubisoft, Crytek, Blizzard, Rockstar, Techland, CD Projekt people. It has many developers who worked at other AAA companies.
…none of which matters and obviously none of which helps in any way. It's also prudent to ask why they left those companies and went to CIG of all places.

Developing a game that is also developing an engine is immensely complicated.
Good thing that they picked an engine that is easy to develop and which has great manufacturer and community support, then.
Good thing that they only break the engine in ways that they haven't tried before so there's an excuse for it behaving oddly.

Oh wait, neither of those are true.

Talked about the tech to some of the devs who said that the immediate effect should be notable
Funny how the official CIG line is that the effect will not be all that notable on the client end. No frame rate improvements and no change in how anything in the world behaves. The server monitors may notice a reduced performance need, but that's about it.

Curious to see if they will break the 40mil record this year.
It would be nice for them if, just once, they could actually operate in remotely the same region as something that could be confused with profitability. :D


Oh, and by the way, it is common courtesy to other posters to put huge image spam behind spoilers so they don't needlessly bloat the page.
 
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Overall I was very satisfied with the event. Glad that they showed the jump point and remained true to the concept of it.

I guess you missed the jump point animation when they showed it off back in 2015?


Amazing how short the memories of backers are at times.

Maybe that's how CIG sell so many ships. People all the time are forgetting they already bought a dozen ships.

Good on you not harassing Erin though with his kids. Who knows, by the time SC release he might have grandkids!
 
I guess you missed the jump point animation when they showed it off back in 2015?


Amazing how short the memories of backers are at times.

Maybe that's how CIG sell so many ships. People all the time are forgetting they already bought a dozen ships.

Good on you not harassing Erin though with his kids. Who knows, by the time SC release he might have grandkids!

Hmm...forget how many ships I have...let me see how that happened :whistle:

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Are they not profitable? People are queuing up to give them money for nothing at all, I don't see how they can fail to make a profit doing that

Profits come with post-release sales. Until such time as there is an official release, it's just backfilling promises and development milestones (a money pit, if you will) - and Cloud Imperium doesn't exactly seem eager to reach those finish lines.
 
Excuse me, dear sir, but you do contradict yourself here. Please don't do that, we already have Roberts for that role.

Sad to hear all that given the initial fundraising proposals and time spent.

You cut out the middle. I didn't. I said LIVE is Alpha status. Evo is just a few steps forward from a Pre-Alpha towards an Alpha status. It's in between. Gamedev (Pre-Alpha) > Evo (Pre-Alpha/Alpha) > PTU (Early Alpha) > LIVE (Alpha).

Obviously they aren't early lol. Yet it is good to see them working hard and pushing for better patches each quarter. I was happy with 3.7 but the network issues are getting on my nerves so I hope SOCS will improve things as some of the devs mentioned. We will see.

The 10 year pre-launch development cycle goes on.

Yes it is.
You do not roll out a feature for testing that you know breaks the testing.

Again you are cherry picking. The majority of the stuff does work because I have contacts in Evocati. If you need testing on 90% of your content and you only have 10% not working, a small percentage, which you can tell your testers to workaround, would you refrain from opening up testing? That would be a management mistake because it would have allowed you to get bugfixes and improvements on everything else while the problematic part is resolved in the meantime. It will also get you to push out the patch at an improved state earlier.

CIG has been doing this 7 times now... It's nothing new and it has been working well.

Also what PR victory? I don't get what you are saying. These people have been working 5/6 months on the content of 3.8. They need it out to merge branches and enter gamedev again for 3.9.

Regarding everything else you wrote... It's a shame. This type of an attitude is why some developers don't want to share stuff with the public. My recommendation is actually going to some CIG events and meeting and talking to developers in a level-headed fashion. They are pretty open to critique and will give you a good picture of how they function. Pretty sure that conversation will be much more fruitful and attached to actual gamedev reality than the forum opinion here.

Profitability will hopefully come. As long as there is stable funding a business can adapt. Maybe it will be like Tesla and they will be profitable eventually maybe they will need to cut down in size to adjust. It doesn't really matter as long as these key tech milestones and features are being constantly developed.

Amazing how short the memories of backers are at times.

Not sure what you are trying to say here? It's very similar. It seems like your opinion is so skewed that you can't see the similarity of a wormhole. Look here.

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Not sure what you are trying to say here? It's very similar. It seems like your opinion is so skewed that you can't see the similarity of a wormhole. Look here.

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Or maybe your opinion is so skewed you can't see its just a slap of paint over something they already showed off years ago.

Its just lipstick on a pig.
 
Again you are cherry picking.
Again?
And no. They have advertised a number of marquee features as going out in this patch, and as being pushed to testing. They conveniently hide behind the most transparent development ever NDA the fact that by pushing these out, they have literally broken the game; that should anyone try to actually, you know, test these features, the whole server breaks. Not just the feature, not just for the individual tester — the entire server.

That is CI¬G cherry-picking, not me. They so desperately need a PR win that they are willing to break everything for everyone to get it.

If you need testing on 90% of your content and you only have 10% not working, a small percentage, which you can tell your testers to workaround, would you refrain from opening up testing?
But that's not what's happening here, is it?
It is not 10% that isn't working — it's 10% that immediately ruins the remaining 90% for everyone should a single person touch it. And yes, you would indeed refrain from handing players such a critically flawed and disruptive feature. You would cut it out and just deploy the 90% that doesn't kill the server. If you can't cut it out, you have failed at software development forever.

It's nothing new and it has been working well.
Nothing CI¬G has done has ever worked well, but you're quite right in that this is not in any way something new.

This type of an attitude is why some developers don't want to share stuff with the public.
Incorrect. This type of attitude is what separates professional developers from rank amateurs and narcissistic know-nothings who think that gloss and outwards appearance is more important than substance and actual best practice. Those who know what they're doing have no fear of sharing their stuff with the public. CI¬G hides their fumbling for a reason and have a long established history of suppressing critique formulated against them.

Conversations with these developers have all confirmed the problems I'm describing.

Profitability will hopefully come. As long as there is stable funding a business can adapt.
One more thing CI¬G has failed abysmally at… but that's par for the course, really. :D
 
You cut out the middle. I didn't. I said LIVE is Alpha status.
Excuse me, dear sir, for my blunder! Here, have a screenshot
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Here you go, telling us about Evocati getting the "stuff running at Alpha". Would you mind pointing out the part about "few steps forward" and "pre-Alpha" that I've lost?
I mean, it should be there, right? Because if not it means that Evocati get the same stuff we see in LIVE later, and that means that Evocati are pretty useless stage that doesn't punch above its weight, because it means no bugs found by Evocati are patched before moving the product down the pipeline. Quite a subsumption!
Also what PR victory?
Quoting Mr Roberts: "also, what is PR victory anyway?"
If you need testing on 90% of your content and you only have 10% not working, a small percentage, which you can tell your testers to workaround, would you refrain from opening up testing?
Dear sir, have you ever heard CI devs muttering the words "version control" , "branches" and "parallel development"?
CIG has been doing this 7 times now... It's nothing new and it has been working well.
Dear sir, I have to correct you here. Surely you meant "doing this 7 years now". Just a typo. And it pains me to hear words like "nothing new" when we are talking about the Best Damn Space Sim Ever!
This type of an attitude is why some developers don't want to share stuff with the public.
Aren't those the same developers that do indeed release games?
The 10 year pre-launch development cycle goes on.
Hurray 2022 release!!
Qouting Mr Roberts again: "Three years are the sweet spot. Anything longer and things become stale"
 
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