1) No it is not by a long way (personal opinion of course)
2) CR promised to save PC gaming. Not that it needed saving, but maybe one day, it will, then the messiah shall rise!
Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11
- Thread starter Sir.Tj
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1) No it is not by a long way (personal opinion of course)
2) CR promised to save PC gaming. Not that it needed saving, but maybe one day, it will, then the messiah shall rise!
Let's hope that the messiah doesn't like Star Citizen then or you lot will decry him as a shill
I can't help but wonder how unbound test clients are supposed to add metrics to actual SSOCS test on the erm, urm, server side.
Just typical PTU mate, no need to create a fuss over it
The squawking over here is typical PTU stuff as well.
Let's hope that the messiah doesn't like Star Citizen then or you lot will decry him as a shill
I hear the messiah is a very naughty boy.
![[VR] DDM_Reaper20](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/44/44021.jpg?1588332101){kind=avatar}
Sheesh...GoT 8. You must hate his guts.
Well, one man's bread is another man's poison . . . plus, I don't want the suspense to kill him . . . (if GOT does the trick, now that would not be my fault, would it . . . ?
)Poor Humperdoo. (not sure if this will translate to the UK, nevermind most US people)
It might be to the world at large but its not to a specific demographic. If you manage to tap into the right audience you can sell mud or water for prime money. And SCs continuous discussions everywhere showing people trying to glorify simple things while at the same time bashing other games for the exact same qualities that they praise in SC only proves that Chris very clearly suceeded to tap into that group.
Which wouldnt be a problem in itself. Every day people get scammed out of their money in Las Vegas and everywhere else in the world and I dont have a problem with that or care (because we are talking about adults making their own decisions). But if they would approach me to tell me how sad I am for saving my money in the bank or refusing to gamble because obviously gambling is THE way to go then it would become a problem.
Thats basically SC in a nutshell. All the ridicule, all the push-back, all the criticism is born because some white knights and shills cannot restrain themselves and continue to lead this ridiculous spearheaded movement trying to prove how SC is superior.....when its simply not. Or come back once in a while with another ridiculous claim or taunt that is easily refuted and proven wrong. And people refuse to accept the claims because of that (its untrue) and not because they "hate" the project. I can believe that initial shilling and white knighting has been performed by CIG-paid and influenced individuals but somehow....a cult has evolved out of this. Not everybody who stays around and is pro-SC is a cultist of course but its easy enough to spot em simply by the demonstrated dissonance in perception and double-standard and of course the refusal to accept simple facts and logic. More and more these days I confuse SC discussions with Flat Earth or Atheist discussions (not really in this place tho....) because you encounter the same fanatics, the same agressive behavior, the same attitude, stupidity, gullibility etc. And "proving" your point is next to impossible...thats why SC has no middle ground. It has the "fanatic" and the "hater" side...its pretty established by now. And regardless how you see yourself in all this ("I think I m pretty neutral") that doesnt matter when the rest of the community only has these two camps and doesnt accept neutrality.
My biggest problem for navigatingt my way through SC discussions used to be figuring out if the game is starting to turn around and becoming what it promised to be. It was difficult because I was genuously asking for changes thinking that SCs past is pretty much established (PU...crap, gameplay loops....nonexisting or crap). So picture my confusion when most of my statements were challenged on the basis of biased perception or dismissal of reality (all of which was painfully revealed in the course of very personal and agitating discussions). I am still on the lookout for a game within Star Citizen. For me development looks on hold, stagnant and pretty much unimpressive because I disregard graphics knowing that visuals dont make a game.
But that the issue most SC fanatics seem to have. They see shiny graphics and assume that the rest of the game is equal to its appearance. And it holds true in this thread as well. Whenever SC is questioned the same individuals go on a shotgun rampage scattering nice looking screenshots (without spoiler tags.....) all over the place as if that would prove anything using it as a reason to "laugh" about the "haters". Its sad.....and its aggravating because it gives me the feeling I m talking to kids or playing into the hands of trolls. Or they fall back on talked-to-death discussion-loops simply to keep going. So tiresome but I guess thats the intention by now.....wear and tire out the skeptics to shut em up. If you dont have facts and reason you can always fall back on persistence. Whoever can go "longer" wins this. Of course figuring out the true state of SC or establishing its qualities isnt even important anymore at this point. Just "winning" is. Which is what fanaticism is all about....
It always shocks me how completely any possible pro-argument for SC can be evaluated, discussed and dismissed eventually. I remember when the "fun" argument hasnt been a blip on the radar in this thread. It wasnt heralded out front as an argument for quality or gameplay. But when certain people ran out of arguments they fell back on "fun" thinking it would be a pretty invincible last stand or something. They were heard, discussed and people figured out how unimportant "fun" really is in the dicussion as a whole due to logical and rational thinking. This has happened because the critical community has listened (read) and thought about the argument provided. And this is a formula that holds true for SCs whole development over 8 years. Everything that was provided has been investigated, checked and evaluated (and for the most part dismissed as valid). But it shows how some people are not really trying to figure out SCs quality or value. They are simply throwing as much stuff at the rotating disk as possible, hoping that something will stick. The absolute BEST stance you can possibly have at this very moment is "carefully optimistic" where you see and accept the issues but remain to have hope or see the possibility of success.
I realize that the power of words can turn water to gold or day to night. You just have to hit the "right terms" and talk enough and eventually you ll overpower your opposition. And while I seem to have a lot of "personal interactions" with SCs community which color my perception of SC and CIG no doubt I always try to find the time and state of mind to think about what people tell me in defense of SC. Its a project under development meaning new information can be implemented that can change my stance and perception. Development could "turn around", CIG could figure out a way to "solve" some of the core problems. I remain willing to accept change as long as accurate/true information is provided. And alot of people in this thread seem to have the same attitude despite posting biting remarks or being cynical.
I dont need my perspective changed. But it looks like its me and the critics of SC that hold that attitude only. The pro-side of the community for the most part seems to be into this to "win".
When you dismiss established and logical facts (development start) or fall back on double-standard (nice graphics makes SC the BDSSE but other games with nice graphics suck)....thats what makes you a fanatic, cultist or shill...or you might be simply a troll doing all this for the giggles.
The game is missing the physical simulation or hitboxes for that
some of those are pure gold
Typical alpha stuff to be honest. I can expect these issues to be fixed by next week? Oh wait....
Don't go dissing my Mole ship now
Its really unfortunate how CIG has ripped off your name to confuse us trying to glean off your "respected" status among the "haters" (runs away giggling crazily while donning a tinfoil hat)
Let's hope that the messiah doesn't like Star Citizen then or you lot will decry him as a shill
If you never participated in a thought-experience like "what would happen specifically if Jesus returned to the world?" I suggest you give it a try
Try to think about specific details and procedures in our current world. What remains is that a product or idea has to stand on its own legs to persist and remain or to be accepted."Fire is hot" is such an example. You can discuss it to death, even come out with a "its not hot at all" result but it always will be hot regardless what the rest of the world thinks (and a "cold" fire isnt what the name implies). Its called "reality check".
You could change the meaning of the word "hot" which wouldnt change the fact either of course.
As is all the "SC is great" stuff
Somebody was replying to a post of mine on Youtube providing the "when it comes together" argument. Its not new but it still gave me pause. Just a moment to think about what was said and meant. I decided to share my thoughts on this. And yeah, i gonna spoiler tag this, no problem ^^
tadaaa
First of all I didnt understand it as "when all things come together SC can be incredible already" because thats a pretty worthless statement depending on luck and circumstances. Its not the norm and a product that works once in a while while it remains reliably bad at all other times is rated as "bad"...simple as that.
Instead I took it as "Star Citizen is pretty bad right now but once all the mismatched pieces come together it ll be incredible".
This tells me that the person saying this realizes and understands the current state of Star Citizen but allows for a change to happen. And because Star Citizen is in active development I am unable to refuse that reservation on logical grounds (if I m being fair....). The chances might be microscopic or equal to a wonder but it can still happen. This is usually the case in processes which we dont have all the details/factors for. Often enough complete chaos can result in harmony because we missed a tiny observation or didnt know about something. Art and painting specifically has a great many examples for this for pictures in the making looking like absolute chaos keeping us confused until the last brush is made and suddenly everything comes together. Either way we learn something in that case or accept certain states without judging them as end results.
Areas which hold these "uncertertainties" are pretty rare nowadays tho as so many things have been investigated, researched, observed and established.
Game development is a pretty well understood topic by now. Maybe not for the consumer but there aint many "mysteries" left when it comes to how you build or create a video game. As soon as outside people understand the tools involved or the materials worked with they can reliably assume limitations, possebilities and results even without being "in the loop". Telling me I "dont understand game development" without having a context to my person, my knowledge or my stance towards the project is simply a defensive knee jerk reaction especially as corrections are never provided, its only said to dismiss and ridicule.
A great example for this would be Derek Smarts statements all these years ago. He wasnt developing SC, he wasnt on the inside but he knew about the engine used and he knew about what Chris Roberts aimed for. His posts remain true to this day even tho he himself is portrayed as a classical "hater" trying to "crap" on the project. He questioned CIGs capabilities to provide what they sold with the tools they used at the time. He also understood from the start how the vision CIG promised or portrayed was impossible even back then but reserved the option for CIG to eventually come true and admit certain things (thats how marketing works) CIG still has received a leeway period with people "waiting" on them to provide counter-proof to the expectations. But to this date his statements continue to stay current (not the "90 days" statement of course). I wont deny CIG "trying" to accomplish their vision. And they certainly have made progress in certain areas but all these tiny improvements have been fought tooth and nail and paid in blood by the devs. It doesnt seem to be a good return value for the time and money invested. The fact that 7 years and all these millions only achieved this little of the whole thing is what stands out in all this. And of course these tiny improvements dont make the vision at large more plausible or even possible.
As a development project Star Citizen certainly isnt a prime candidate as an example for "smart coding" or "solid craftsmanship". These evaluations dont consider "fun" or "personal perception"...its simply reality. People "try" to come up with eventualities that will change the course and prove that SC was "coming together all the time....we just didnt see it". Fans and skeptics alike. A lot of people critical to the project actually have made the effort and thought about "what is needed for SC to provide what it promised" in the past. And the results of these considerations have established the "SC is bad/impossible" overall opinion. It lacks direction, confidence, clear communication (even internally, Ben Parrys posts only support that) and it seems like its running out of funds long before a possible release.
All the toxic arguments everywhere are born out of impatience because Star Citizen takes longer then anybody expected. And why would that be a bad thing to do? After all the boss of the show himself announced a released date of 2014. In hindsight its pretty clear that this was an overconfident statement because projects of this scope take longer (everybody knows this....doh) but I dont see how "I" am the idiot for believing him back then or expressing confusion when it didnt happen it 2014. I actually wasnt really expecting a 2014 release at any given time once it was clear how slowly SC progresses but I was holding my chair for 2015 and eventually was looking forward to 2016.
Which is the point at which I turned "hater" which simply means I gave up all hope for SC ever coming together because CIG doesnt seem to be willing or capable of doing the trick. They will simply change major factors (like scope, or maybe engine at some point) and occasionally introduce new stuff on top of all the old unfulfilled promises as a distraction to keep the wheel going. Me giving up hope isnt a fact for or against Star Citizen of course. Its just my personal stance. People always seem to forget (or dont know) how long I watch this show already. There is hardly anything left I dont know about Star Citizen. All the "reports" coming out nowadays show that very clearly. They even miss details I could provide because I simply know more about the project then somebody who researched it for a couple weeks or just "joined a few months ago".
But Star Citizen still can come together.......I guess. I dont see it happening but that doesnt mean its not going to happen. I just refuse to bet my hope and money (because this is going to require a LOT of more money) on an exception. So many people express confidence in Star Citizens success and I m really trying to see their side of things in order to evaluate my own stance. What it shows is how incredibly big the range of uncertainties is for this project. People are unable to agree on an end result, on a starting point, words suddenly mean different things depending on the fluid changes in development and are accepted as the new truth changing everything (3.0), wild rumors are slung around FOR and AGAINST Star Citizen because its design allows for those rumors to exist without certainty to their validity. Everything is vague, everything is "maybe" or "early days", everything looks bad but it can still come together.
Hope dies the last......
Its the ONE factor most scams are based upon (yeah /groan...this again). The illusion of success. The hope of winning. Beating the odds. This "one" time it can succeed.
At times as this its helpful to remember that Star Citizen is actually a video game, not some great mystery or riddle that humanity is unsure about. Nothing CIG does or attempts is in any way new or revolutionary. They promise something new and revolutionary but thats a different thing. And while we the community wallow in the mud trying to make sense of what we observe simply because we dont have the answers and all the factors that we would need to come up with an answer....CIG certainly does which means Chris Roberts knows how he is doing and where all this is going. The rest of us is simply coming to terms in our own time because CIG refuses to tell us the truth (CIG never admits a shortcoming, they simply throw out a raw attempt and let the community mind-gymnastic it for them, justifying CIGs shortcomings. Its deceptive, even criminal manipulation). If you know the result but remain silent to keep the "thing" going as long as possible before the rest of the world figures out what you know (for monetary reasons)....thats a classical scam or fraud scheme for me. The logical thinking in coming to this conclusion is pretty iron clad and denies refusion (to me at least). People who outright dismiss the potential chance for SC to be a scam are simply people who "dont want to see the ugly truth". It might be untrue in the end (as I said often, I cannot prove it) but if it happens to be true I wont be surprised becasue all things point to this being very much a possebility.
Facing reality. Thats what its all about.
And it looks like a large percentage of the pro-SC crowd refuses to acknowledge and face reality. Which is the primary reason why we have a V11 of this thread and regardless how some people try to ridicule this evergoing circle of thoughts and arguments, its based on a real sad truth. Because some people refuse to accept reality and others refuse to allow them to dismiss facts and history.
We had long stretches of time where this thread has calmed down considerably to the point where I thought "wow this thing is dead" because making fun of Star Citizen gets boring pretty quick. We all know whats there so all of it is "old news" as well. Weeks and months go by which is telling you all you need to know about CIGs progress rate. But sure as taxes there WILL be another post claiming a ridiculousness, some new info out of CIG and once in a blue moon a change in Star Citizen to discuss.
Because CIG refuses to die and hopes to keep going for whatever reason (but I have a pretty safe bet...). It cant really be "making this game a reality" anymore at this time. Too much work is left, too much time has passed and CIG is busy stacking the odds even higher against its own success. Where other companies cut and drop features in order to release, CIG ADDS more and more without admitting to shortcomings. Or they just keep quiet about their own known limitations and wait for the rest of the community to "wake up and smell the omlette". And while some select few might observe this and accept it as a necessity for the "dream" to become reality the rest of the people express doubt and make fun of Star Citizen.....rightfully so. We have this "trench war" because some people cannot endure the fun which isnt even directed at them personally and decide to pick up the defense for CIG.
Star Citizens chances of coming together ever are pretty bad. No doubt about it. Small improvements done once in a while against all expectations dont really change the overall ratio for this to happen. We all know about the statements of "pipelines" or "wait until this core tech is in place then things will speed up" etc etc. Star Citizen is facing some pretty extreme technical challenges if it ever wants to become a MMO capable of delivering all the promises made over the years. That we are not "working at CIG and dont know what they are doing" doesnt prevent us from having a rough idea or evaluating what we see. Its not us being "extreme" for having doubt or being impatient. Its the people who try to refuse simple facts and rewrite history or take a small independant thing (THE RAMP WORKS!!!!!!) to announce SCs success and superiority.
Instead I took it as "Star Citizen is pretty bad right now but once all the mismatched pieces come together it ll be incredible".
This tells me that the person saying this realizes and understands the current state of Star Citizen but allows for a change to happen. And because Star Citizen is in active development I am unable to refuse that reservation on logical grounds (if I m being fair....). The chances might be microscopic or equal to a wonder but it can still happen. This is usually the case in processes which we dont have all the details/factors for. Often enough complete chaos can result in harmony because we missed a tiny observation or didnt know about something. Art and painting specifically has a great many examples for this for pictures in the making looking like absolute chaos keeping us confused until the last brush is made and suddenly everything comes together. Either way we learn something in that case or accept certain states without judging them as end results.
Areas which hold these "uncertertainties" are pretty rare nowadays tho as so many things have been investigated, researched, observed and established.
Game development is a pretty well understood topic by now. Maybe not for the consumer but there aint many "mysteries" left when it comes to how you build or create a video game. As soon as outside people understand the tools involved or the materials worked with they can reliably assume limitations, possebilities and results even without being "in the loop". Telling me I "dont understand game development" without having a context to my person, my knowledge or my stance towards the project is simply a defensive knee jerk reaction especially as corrections are never provided, its only said to dismiss and ridicule.
A great example for this would be Derek Smarts statements all these years ago. He wasnt developing SC, he wasnt on the inside but he knew about the engine used and he knew about what Chris Roberts aimed for. His posts remain true to this day even tho he himself is portrayed as a classical "hater" trying to "crap" on the project. He questioned CIGs capabilities to provide what they sold with the tools they used at the time. He also understood from the start how the vision CIG promised or portrayed was impossible even back then but reserved the option for CIG to eventually come true and admit certain things (thats how marketing works) CIG still has received a leeway period with people "waiting" on them to provide counter-proof to the expectations. But to this date his statements continue to stay current (not the "90 days" statement of course). I wont deny CIG "trying" to accomplish their vision. And they certainly have made progress in certain areas but all these tiny improvements have been fought tooth and nail and paid in blood by the devs. It doesnt seem to be a good return value for the time and money invested. The fact that 7 years and all these millions only achieved this little of the whole thing is what stands out in all this. And of course these tiny improvements dont make the vision at large more plausible or even possible.
As a development project Star Citizen certainly isnt a prime candidate as an example for "smart coding" or "solid craftsmanship". These evaluations dont consider "fun" or "personal perception"...its simply reality. People "try" to come up with eventualities that will change the course and prove that SC was "coming together all the time....we just didnt see it". Fans and skeptics alike. A lot of people critical to the project actually have made the effort and thought about "what is needed for SC to provide what it promised" in the past. And the results of these considerations have established the "SC is bad/impossible" overall opinion. It lacks direction, confidence, clear communication (even internally, Ben Parrys posts only support that) and it seems like its running out of funds long before a possible release.
All the toxic arguments everywhere are born out of impatience because Star Citizen takes longer then anybody expected. And why would that be a bad thing to do? After all the boss of the show himself announced a released date of 2014. In hindsight its pretty clear that this was an overconfident statement because projects of this scope take longer (everybody knows this....doh) but I dont see how "I" am the idiot for believing him back then or expressing confusion when it didnt happen it 2014. I actually wasnt really expecting a 2014 release at any given time once it was clear how slowly SC progresses but I was holding my chair for 2015 and eventually was looking forward to 2016.
Which is the point at which I turned "hater" which simply means I gave up all hope for SC ever coming together because CIG doesnt seem to be willing or capable of doing the trick. They will simply change major factors (like scope, or maybe engine at some point) and occasionally introduce new stuff on top of all the old unfulfilled promises as a distraction to keep the wheel going. Me giving up hope isnt a fact for or against Star Citizen of course. Its just my personal stance. People always seem to forget (or dont know) how long I watch this show already. There is hardly anything left I dont know about Star Citizen. All the "reports" coming out nowadays show that very clearly. They even miss details I could provide because I simply know more about the project then somebody who researched it for a couple weeks or just "joined a few months ago".
But Star Citizen still can come together.......I guess. I dont see it happening but that doesnt mean its not going to happen. I just refuse to bet my hope and money (because this is going to require a LOT of more money) on an exception. So many people express confidence in Star Citizens success and I m really trying to see their side of things in order to evaluate my own stance. What it shows is how incredibly big the range of uncertainties is for this project. People are unable to agree on an end result, on a starting point, words suddenly mean different things depending on the fluid changes in development and are accepted as the new truth changing everything (3.0), wild rumors are slung around FOR and AGAINST Star Citizen because its design allows for those rumors to exist without certainty to their validity. Everything is vague, everything is "maybe" or "early days", everything looks bad but it can still come together.
Hope dies the last......
Its the ONE factor most scams are based upon (yeah /groan...this again). The illusion of success. The hope of winning. Beating the odds. This "one" time it can succeed.
At times as this its helpful to remember that Star Citizen is actually a video game, not some great mystery or riddle that humanity is unsure about. Nothing CIG does or attempts is in any way new or revolutionary. They promise something new and revolutionary but thats a different thing. And while we the community wallow in the mud trying to make sense of what we observe simply because we dont have the answers and all the factors that we would need to come up with an answer....CIG certainly does which means Chris Roberts knows how he is doing and where all this is going. The rest of us is simply coming to terms in our own time because CIG refuses to tell us the truth (CIG never admits a shortcoming, they simply throw out a raw attempt and let the community mind-gymnastic it for them, justifying CIGs shortcomings. Its deceptive, even criminal manipulation). If you know the result but remain silent to keep the "thing" going as long as possible before the rest of the world figures out what you know (for monetary reasons)....thats a classical scam or fraud scheme for me. The logical thinking in coming to this conclusion is pretty iron clad and denies refusion (to me at least). People who outright dismiss the potential chance for SC to be a scam are simply people who "dont want to see the ugly truth". It might be untrue in the end (as I said often, I cannot prove it) but if it happens to be true I wont be surprised becasue all things point to this being very much a possebility.
Facing reality. Thats what its all about.
And it looks like a large percentage of the pro-SC crowd refuses to acknowledge and face reality. Which is the primary reason why we have a V11 of this thread and regardless how some people try to ridicule this evergoing circle of thoughts and arguments, its based on a real sad truth. Because some people refuse to accept reality and others refuse to allow them to dismiss facts and history.
We had long stretches of time where this thread has calmed down considerably to the point where I thought "wow this thing is dead" because making fun of Star Citizen gets boring pretty quick. We all know whats there so all of it is "old news" as well. Weeks and months go by which is telling you all you need to know about CIGs progress rate. But sure as taxes there WILL be another post claiming a ridiculousness, some new info out of CIG and once in a blue moon a change in Star Citizen to discuss.
Because CIG refuses to die and hopes to keep going for whatever reason (but I have a pretty safe bet...). It cant really be "making this game a reality" anymore at this time. Too much work is left, too much time has passed and CIG is busy stacking the odds even higher against its own success. Where other companies cut and drop features in order to release, CIG ADDS more and more without admitting to shortcomings. Or they just keep quiet about their own known limitations and wait for the rest of the community to "wake up and smell the omlette". And while some select few might observe this and accept it as a necessity for the "dream" to become reality the rest of the people express doubt and make fun of Star Citizen.....rightfully so. We have this "trench war" because some people cannot endure the fun which isnt even directed at them personally and decide to pick up the defense for CIG.
Star Citizens chances of coming together ever are pretty bad. No doubt about it. Small improvements done once in a while against all expectations dont really change the overall ratio for this to happen. We all know about the statements of "pipelines" or "wait until this core tech is in place then things will speed up" etc etc. Star Citizen is facing some pretty extreme technical challenges if it ever wants to become a MMO capable of delivering all the promises made over the years. That we are not "working at CIG and dont know what they are doing" doesnt prevent us from having a rough idea or evaluating what we see. Its not us being "extreme" for having doubt or being impatient. Its the people who try to refuse simple facts and rewrite history or take a small independant thing (THE RAMP WORKS!!!!!!) to announce SCs success and superiority.
tadaaa
I reckon that is a roll of gaffer tape and some Bondo in that parcel!
Future tears of SC backers.I reckon that is a roll of gaffer tape and some Bondo in that parcel!
I would be interested in some visuals to compare. What narrative? Look below that is Battlefield on top vs Star Citizen
Here is a screen from NMS.
Yea PTU is in stress test mode. It's very unstable due to SOCS testing
3.8 PTU Wave 1: Help us test SOCS! - Star Citizen Spectrum
Hey everyone, In the next 30 minutes or so (~0135 UTC), we'll be opening up 3.8 PTU Wave 1 for all concierge and subscribers to test our current 3.8 build. Please note that this is not going to be...robertsspaceindustries.com
Meanwhile, here's a sneak peak of what Elite: Dangerous' coming Atmospheric Update looks like:
Star Citizen...one of the very few if not only projects that's complained about, dissected and discussed more by more people who have never been involved in it than people who are or have been...all with the lurid assumption that the ones who are involved live in some la-la land where we all hold hands, never complain and blindly accept everything that Ci¬G throw out of the door is even mildly adequate.Somebody was replying to a post of mine on Youtube providing the "when it comes together" argument. Its not new but it still gave me pause. Just a moment to think about what was said and meant. I decided to share my thoughts on this. And yeah, i gonna spoiler tag this, no problem ^^
First of all I didnt understand it as "when all things come together SC can be incredible already" because thats a pretty worthless statement depending on luck and circumstances. Its not the norm and a product that works once in a while while it remains reliably bad at all other times is rated as "bad"...simple as that.
Instead I took it as "Star Citizen is pretty bad right now but once all the mismatched pieces come together it ll be incredible".
This tells me that the person saying this realizes and understands the current state of Star Citizen but allows for a change to happen. And because Star Citizen is in active development I am unable to refuse that reservation on logical grounds (if I m being fair....). The chances might be microscopic or equal to a wonder but it can still happen. This is usually the case in processes which we dont have all the details/factors for. Often enough complete chaos can result in harmony because we missed a tiny observation or didnt know about something. Art and painting specifically has a great many examples for this for pictures in the making looking like absolute chaos keeping us confused until the last brush is made and suddenly everything comes together. Either way we learn something in that case or accept certain states without judging them as end results.
Areas which hold these "uncertertainties" are pretty rare nowadays tho as so many things have been investigated, researched, observed and established.
Game development is a pretty well understood topic by now. Maybe not for the consumer but there aint many "mysteries" left when it comes to how you build or create a video game. As soon as outside people understand the tools involved or the materials worked with they can reliably assume limitations, possebilities and results even without being "in the loop". Telling me I "dont understand game development" without having a context to my person, my knowledge or my stance towards the project is simply a defensive knee jerk reaction especially as corrections are never provided, its only said to dismiss and ridicule.
A great example for this would be Derek Smarts statements all these years ago. He wasnt developing SC, he wasnt on the inside but he knew about the engine used and he knew about what Chris Roberts aimed for. His posts remain true to this day even tho he himself is portrayed as a classical "hater" trying to "crap" on the project. He questioned CIGs capabilities to provide what they sold with the tools they used at the time. He also understood from the start how the vision CIG promised or portrayed was impossible even back then but reserved the option for CIG to eventually come true and admit certain things (thats how marketing works) CIG still has received a leeway period with people "waiting" on them to provide counter-proof to the expectations. But to this date his statements continue to stay current (not the "90 days" statement of course). I wont deny CIG "trying" to accomplish their vision. And they certainly have made progress in certain areas but all these tiny improvements have been fought tooth and nail and paid in blood by the devs. It doesnt seem to be a good return value for the time and money invested. The fact that 7 years and all these millions only achieved this little of the whole thing is what stands out in all this. And of course these tiny improvements dont make the vision at large more plausible or even possible.
As a development project Star Citizen certainly isnt a prime candidate as an example for "smart coding" or "solid craftsmanship". These evaluations dont consider "fun" or "personal perception"...its simply reality. People "try" to come up with eventualities that will change the course and prove that SC was "coming together all the time....we just didnt see it". Fans and skeptics alike. A lot of people critical to the project actually have made the effort and thought about "what is needed for SC to provide what it promised" in the past. And the results of these considerations have established the "SC is bad/impossible" overall opinion. It lacks direction, confidence, clear communication (even internally, Ben Parrys posts only support that) and it seems like its running out of funds long before a possible release.
All the toxic arguments everywhere are born out of impatience because Star Citizen takes longer then anybody expected. And why would that be a bad thing to do? After all the boss of the show himself announced a released date of 2014. In hindsight its pretty clear that this was an overconfident statement because projects of this scope take longer (everybody knows this....doh) but I dont see how "I" am the idiot for believing him back then or expressing confusion when it didnt happen it 2014. I actually wasnt really expecting a 2014 release at any given time once it was clear how slowly SC progresses but I was holding my chair for 2015 and eventually was looking forward to 2016.
Which is the point at which I turned "hater" which simply means I gave up all hope for SC ever coming together because CIG doesnt seem to be willing or capable of doing the trick. They will simply change major factors (like scope, or maybe engine at some point) and occasionally introduce new stuff on top of all the old unfulfilled promises as a distraction to keep the wheel going. Me giving up hope isnt a fact for or against Star Citizen of course. Its just my personal stance. People always seem to forget (or dont know) how long I watch this show already. There is hardly anything left I dont know about Star Citizen. All the "reports" coming out nowadays show that very clearly. They even miss details I could provide because I simply know more about the project then somebody who researched it for a couple weeks or just "joined a few months ago".
But Star Citizen still can come together.......I guess. I dont see it happening but that doesnt mean its not going to happen. I just refuse to bet my hope and money (because this is going to require a LOT of more money) on an exception. So many people express confidence in Star Citizens success and I m really trying to see their side of things in order to evaluate my own stance. What it shows is how incredibly big the range of uncertainties is for this project. People are unable to agree on an end result, on a starting point, words suddenly mean different things depending on the fluid changes in development and are accepted as the new truth changing everything (3.0), wild rumors are slung around FOR and AGAINST Star Citizen because its design allows for those rumors to exist without certainty to their validity. Everything is vague, everything is "maybe" or "early days", everything looks bad but it can still come together.
Hope dies the last......
Its the ONE factor most scams are based upon (yeah /groan...this again). The illusion of success. The hope of winning. Beating the odds. This "one" time it can succeed.
At times as this its helpful to remember that Star Citizen is actually a video game, not some great mystery or riddle that humanity is unsure about. Nothing CIG does or attempts is in any way new or revolutionary. They promise something new and revolutionary but thats a different thing. And while we the community wallow in the mud trying to make sense of what we observe simply because we dont have the answers and all the factors that we would need to come up with an answer....CIG certainly does which means Chris Roberts knows how he is doing and where all this is going. The rest of us is simply coming to terms in our own time because CIG refuses to tell us the truth (CIG never admits a shortcoming, they simply throw out a raw attempt and let the community mind-gymnastic it for them, justifying CIGs shortcomings. Its deceptive, even criminal manipulation). If you know the result but remain silent to keep the "thing" going as long as possible before the rest of the world figures out what you know (for monetary reasons)....thats a classical scam or fraud scheme for me. The logical thinking in coming to this conclusion is pretty iron clad and denies refusion (to me at least). People who outright dismiss the potential chance for SC to be a scam are simply people who "dont want to see the ugly truth". It might be untrue in the end (as I said often, I cannot prove it) but if it happens to be true I wont be surprised becasue all things point to this being very much a possebility.
Facing reality. Thats what its all about.
And it looks like a large percentage of the pro-SC crowd refuses to acknowledge and face reality. Which is the primary reason why we have a V11 of this thread and regardless how some people try to ridicule this evergoing circle of thoughts and arguments, its based on a real sad truth. Because some people refuse to accept reality and others refuse to allow them to dismiss facts and history.
We had long stretches of time where this thread has calmed down considerably to the point where I thought "wow this thing is dead" because making fun of Star Citizen gets boring pretty quick. We all know whats there so all of it is "old news" as well. Weeks and months go by which is telling you all you need to know about CIGs progress rate. But sure as taxes there WILL be another post claiming a ridiculousness, some new info out of CIG and once in a blue moon a change in Star Citizen to discuss.
Because CIG refuses to die and hopes to keep going for whatever reason (but I have a pretty safe bet...). It cant really be "making this game a reality" anymore at this time. Too much work is left, too much time has passed and CIG is busy stacking the odds even higher against its own success. Where other companies cut and drop features in order to release, CIG ADDS more and more without admitting to shortcomings. Or they just keep quiet about their own known limitations and wait for the rest of the community to "wake up and smell the omlette". And while some select few might observe this and accept it as a necessity for the "dream" to become reality the rest of the people express doubt and make fun of Star Citizen.....rightfully so. We have this "trench war" because some people cannot endure the fun which isnt even directed at them personally and decide to pick up the defense for CIG.
Star Citizens chances of coming together ever are pretty bad. No doubt about it. Small improvements done once in a while against all expectations dont really change the overall ratio for this to happen. We all know about the statements of "pipelines" or "wait until this core tech is in place then things will speed up" etc etc. Star Citizen is facing some pretty extreme technical challenges if it ever wants to become a MMO capable of delivering all the promises made over the years. That we are not "working at CIG and dont know what they are doing" doesnt prevent us from having a rough idea or evaluating what we see. Its not us being "extreme" for having doubt or being impatient. Its the people who try to refuse simple facts and rewrite history or take a small independant thing (THE RAMP WORKS!!!!!!) to announce SCs success and superiority.
tadaaa
I should repost some of the live conversations from the only part part of the Spectrum echo chamber I actively take part in, #concierge chat. I suspect the general discussions had there on a day to day basis, from people who are actively involved, reasonably invested and not the $45 pledge, 3 hours play time 'experts' on Star Citizen and it's development who seem to offer their opinions as testament.
I think the conversations in there would surprise quite a few... and the reason I quite enjoy dropping in.
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Star Citizen...one of the very few if not only projects that's complained about, dissected and discussed more by more people who have never been involved in it than people who are or have been...all with the lurid assumption that the ones who are involved live in some la-la land where we all hold hands, never complain and blindly accept everything that Ci¬G throw out of the door is even mildly adequate.
I should repost some of the live conversations from the only part part of the Spectrum echo chamber I actively take part in, #concierge chat. I suspect the general discussions had there on a day to day basis would surprise quite a few... and the reason I quite enjoy dropping in.
I think it comes down to your definition of "involved" because the way I see it, games in the making always have been discussed to death in forums by their respective communities before it finally released and answered most of the questions. From a purely volumetric point of view discussions by fans (uninvolved) has always outweight discussions among the devs (involved)
So who are the people you consider "involved"? Backers who participate in the alpha-testing? Or just the once with PTU access? Me, without any ties to SC am actually the exception in this thread. Most people participating are backers themselves, were backers in the past or have taken advantage of the free fly events. If involved people are the folks working on the development then I cannot think of any game where devs ever provided more discussion and theorizing then the community. If involved people are backers, then you are also wrong specifically in this thread. I m just interested
It was more a generalisation, Fritz...like the perception myself and the very few others who post on here seem to be generalized so anything and everything posted in reference to Star Citizen and it's development can be automatically dismissed, taken apart and laughed at. It gets a bit tiring sometimes with post after post attempting to call into question personal integrity, personal bias and outright attempts to either force an argument, force a backdown or a defensive response for entertainment or degenerate into petty name calling to reinforce a personal agenda, viewpoint or attitude. It's dehumanising, embarrasing and downright offensive sometimes on here.I think it comes down to your definition of "involved" because the way I see it, games in the making always have been discussed to death in forums by their respective communities before it finally released and answered most of the questions. From a purely volumetric point of view discussions by fans (uninvolved) has always outweight discussions among the devs (involved)
So who are the people you consider "involved"? Backers who participate in the alpha-testing? Or just the once with PTU access? Me, without any ties to SC am actually the exception in this thread. Most people participating are backers themselves, were backers in the past or have taken advantage of the free fly events. If involved people are the folks working on the development then I cannot think of any game where devs ever provided more discussion and theorizing then the community. If involved people are backers, then you are also wrong specifically in this thread. I m just interested
Yup, it can be hard work trying to maintain a relatively neutral stance and post factual information when even that can be open season for ridicule or argument
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Star Citizen...one of the very few if not only projects that's complained about, dissected and discussed more by more people who have never been involved in it than people who are or have been...all with the lurid assumption that the ones who are involved live in some la-la land where we all hold hands, never complain and blindly accept everything that Ci¬G throw out of the door is even mildly adequate.
I should repost some of the live conversations from the only part part of the Spectrum echo chamber I actively take part in, #concierge chat. I suspect the general discussions had there on a day to day basis would surprise quite a few... and the reason I quite enjoy dropping in.
I think interest from outside the fold in SC stems from two things mainly.
Spaceship games are rare, so those few gamers who like the genre check them all out and want them all to be good.
With SC being amazingly late, super wonky, oversold and overpriced way beyond credibilities breaking point people who don't have faith in it really struggle to see it as anything other than a transparently predatory scam. Every year/patch is announced as it'll all come together then it just doesn't, and we get told the next one will be it instead. Yet the ship sales happen like clockwork.
Deep down inside we want to believe it can suceed, but the grim reality of what it is really gets in the way of that.
Actual preview (without the people, paths, buildings and UI, of course):
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