That Elite Aesthetic

On the thread about @drew's recent livestream discussion of Frontier's abandonment of lore, @Ian Doncaster made a comment that I'd wanted to reply to, but the thread got locked before I could. In the hopes of avoiding the disruptive elements that were involved in getting the thread locked, I'd like discuss this here. Everyone’s welcome, of course. :)

I'd completely forgotten about it in all the previous complaints about telepresence too, and then I thought ... wait, didn't I read something somewhere once?

My way to look at it is that the Elite setting is...
  • 17th century Age of Sail traders and pirates
  • Fighting each other with 20th century fighters
  • In a high-tech space dystopia
None of that makes any sense in terms of a coherent "hard" setting. Forget the fine detail, the basic setting is ridiculously inconsistent wherever you look, and you can't build consistent fine detail on top of that without "but what about ..." questions burying it. But it's great fun as a game concept which has survived almost 40 years with minimal tweaks, and the nature of that game concept itself generates stories which - if everyone agrees to ignore the setting being silly - can be great experiences / reads.
Funnily enough, that's my way of viewing the Elite setting as well, and I always felt it was fairly coherent myself... if there was no FTL communications that were faster than ships could travel. Which is why I’d assumed that it had been retconned away, along with the numerous alien sophonts, back in 1993. At any rate, here's my thoughts on those three aspects of the Elite setting.

The Golden Age of Sail Aesthetic

This is the aspect of the setting that IMO relies most on a lack of fast FTL communications. On the trading front, "merchantile captains" relied on the communications lag, ignorance, and isolation (either physical or communications) to make their fortunes. On the piracy front, pirates rely on isolation (either physical or communications) and/or a breakdown of law and order to operate.

The WW2 Dogfighting Aesthetic

Truth be told, I'd always assumed this was a gameplay compromise. Dogfighting is much more interesting to most players than what the reality of what space warfare would be, which is why we only see realistic warfare in printed media.

That being said, there is one explanation for the extremely close-range combat seen in these video games: someone invented a way to achieve stealth in space. Not the proverbial invisibility cloak type of stealth, but a way of spoofing sensors enough to bring engagement ranges down to the proverbial knife's edge. Active sensors exist, naturally, but using them in combat is more effective at allowing others to target you than the reverse.

The Cyberpunk Aesthetic

This is the easiest one to explain IMO. It's pretty much inevitable if corporations and wealthy individuals are allowed to operate unchecked by governments. This describes the Elite setting to a tee. Furthermore the three major Superpowers are all heavily invested in maintaining this status quo:

The Federation - Is pretty much ruled by Corporations.

The Empire - Aesthetically it resembles the Roman Republic, where wealthy individuals are allowed to wield unlimited power.

The Pilots' Federation - (Sorry Alliance, IMO you're a distant fourth) It started life as a trade guild, and to quote Adam Smith: “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

It seemed inevitable that, by the 34th century, it had morphed into the largest legal criminal organization in Human space. Besides ironically being in control of the Galaxy's justice system, via its monopoly of the bounty system, its the Superpower the other Superpowers look to for mercenaries, assassins, saboteurs, privateers, kidnappers, slave traders, and other “off the books” operations.

In other words, we’re the baddies. :devilish:

and just to be complete...

The Alliance - IMO, the Alliance is pretty much what you get if the Federation and the Empire had a kid, who inherited all their flaws, and none of their limited virtues. ;)

Since I now have to acknowledge /sigh/ "telepresence" as actually existing in this setting, I need to headcanon a reason why people are willing to pay Commanders exorbitant prices to physically deliver even routine, non-critical communications to other star systems, when a much better alternative exists. Not to mention the lack remotely controlled ships, the lack of an on-demand functioning economy, and of course physically delivering exploration data, combat bonds, and bounties.

Thankfully, there is a relatively simple explanation for this discrepancy, namely that it’s in the best interests of the Pilots Federation and the rest of the Galactic Powers to maintain the old status quo. It’s much easier to make a profit off of a humanity that is divided, dysfunctional, ignorant, and isolated. Unfortunately, this relies on two assumptions. The first is that FTL communications technology is prohibitively expensive, to the point where only the hyperclasses (including the Pilots Federation) have access to it. The second is that FSD technology remains relatively rare, so to most of the galaxy, even nearby systems are weeks away.
 
This is the aspect of the setting that IMO relies most on a lack of fast FTL communications. On the trading front, "merchantile captains" relied on the communications lag, ignorance, and isolation (either physical or communications) to make their fortunes. On the piracy front, pirates rely on isolation (either physical or communications) and/or a breakdown of law and order to operate.
Yes.

However, telepresence - or even any inter-system capability at all - is not required for FTL comms. If every ship, on hyperspace, gives the market data for its previous system to its new system, and then that market data was also included in outbound jumps, then full market data for the other side of the bubble will likely be available with only 30 minutes lag. Even if there isn't that much cooperation, a smaller network of traders could probably get comprehensive market data at least as good as EDDB, which is good enough for most purposes.

For "Age of Sail" economics to make any sense, the key is that the comms and transport delays are long enough that the market could plausibly have collapsed or boomed in the time for comms to go from A to B, and a ship to get back from B to A, and therefore the negotiations required for a seller in A to deal directly with a buyer in B can't easily happen. Even with the BGS being massively accelerated for gameplay purposes, that doesn't happen in Elite Dangerous.
 
I just ignore telepresence as best I can. The only time it's hard is when my stupid SLF pilot reminds me ad nauseam that he is using telepresence for my SLF. So in my head cannon, there is no FTL comms except perhaps the most basic of text messages (kinda like telegraph of the wild west) between nav beacons or something like that. This is how Galnet (used to) propagates. I think of Nav Beacons as routers on the Internet, with each beacon being connected to its neighbors via entanglement. I know, QE is not FTL, but I'm enough of a QM noob that I can pretend it is and not lose sleep. So the limited bandwidth and the idea that a Nav Beacon could easily be hacked is why I need to carry data by hand. IRL there are things I don't trust to email and would rather keep on a USB key, so it's plausible. Sending my holographic projection across the galaxy, on the other hand, is just rubbish. But I don't multicrew, so no need to even give this any mind.

I think of messages that I get from faction leaders as pre-programmed (which they literally are, LOL), because let's face it, the CEO / President of a faction isn't going to type out a message INSTANTLY to every commander the second they successfully complete a mission - that's just silly. The TV show "Andromeda" handled this well with "AI mail" that let people send messages with pre-programmed responses, the message itself had to be physically delivered, but you could interact with it in a very rudimentary way, asking some very basic questions to get "if this, then that" answers. This is what my faction leaders provide with their mission data that is uploaded to my computer.

This is also why I have a hard time with friends seeing where I am at anywhere in the galaxy. This "real time" FTL transponder should not exist. The easy fix for that - don't have friends in ED, LOL. Thankfully I haven't needed the services of a Fuel Rat, as this would force me to break outside of my head cannon of no FTL comms....
 
Yes.

However, telepresence - or even any inter-system capability at all - is not required for FTL comms. If every ship, on hyperspace, gives the market data for its previous system to its new system, and then that market data was also included in outbound jumps, then full market data for the other side of the bubble will likely be available with only 30 minutes lag. Even if there isn't that much cooperation, a smaller network of traders could probably get comprehensive market data at least as good as EDDB, which is good enough for most purposes.

For "Age of Sail" economics to make any sense, the key is that the comms and transport delays are long enough that the market could plausibly have collapsed or boomed in the time for comms to go from A to B, and a ship to get back from B to A, and therefore the negotiations required for a seller in A to deal directly with a buyer in B can't easily happen. Even with the BGS being massively accelerated for gameplay purposes, that doesn't happen in Elite Dangerous.

Agreed... though I use the term “telepresence” as shorthand for a specific type of FTL communications: extreme long range (can be used across the galaxy) high bandwidth (capable of transmitting VR information) and low latency (no communications lag.). It’s just a lot shorter to type. ;)

At any rate, that exact conundrum is why it’s part of my headcanon that the unwashed masses still have to make do with the technology that was state of the art a hundred years ago. Systems that haven’t been blessed by the presence a Commander, or other member of the hyperclass, find themselves weeks away from even neighboring systems. Combine that with the desire to maximize profits, and you get the dysfunctional economy* we see in ED.

I occasionally refer to the early 34th century of the Elite universe as the “Golden Age of the Pilots Federation,” a period of time where a confluence of social inertia, technological advances, political machinations, and unrestrained greed allowed the Pilots Federation to effectively operate above the law.

_
* I’m not sure if you were around during the Alpha, but when Frontier added the Economic Sim in Alpha 4, the instant a player added crowdsourced market data into the mix, trade profits plummeted, much to the dismay of some players. Frontiers response was to deliberately break their Economic Sim.
 
Thankfully, there is a relatively simple explanation for this discrepancy, namely that it’s in the best interests of the Pilots Federation and the rest of the Galactic Powers to maintain the old status quo. It’s much easier to make a profit off of a humanity that is divided, dysfunctional, ignorant, and isolated. Unfortunately, this relies on two assumptions. The first is that FTL communications technology is prohibitively expensive, to the point where only the hyperclasses (including the Pilots Federation) have access to it. The second is that FSD technology remains relatively rare, so to most of the galaxy, even nearby systems are weeks away.

Or its a conspiracy by the powers that be to keep humanity from truly evolving past a certain point. Civilisations that have food and necessities sorted tend to look outwards for power and control. Any civilisation is 3 meals away from revolution (source needed), maybe somebody wants to keep it that way.

FTL Comms / data / explo - could be intercepted or hacked, safer to deliver by hand, especially if its not what they say it is....explo data can be prevented from being handed in if 'they' deem it necessary or if someone is too close to the truth.

Just some possibilities, I don't tend to overthink anything that makes the game more playable. Instant galaxy wide prices / handing in data just meh, taking weeks to fly anywhere just salt so I don't poke that bear as its possibly the best compromise.

_
* I’m not sure if you were around during the Alpha, but when Frontier added the Economic Sim in Alpha 4, the instant a player added crowdsourced market data into the mix, trade profits plummeted, much to the dismay of some players. Frontiers response was to deliberately break their Economic Sim.

I wasn't so genuinely asking as a bit unclear, do you mean salty players made the game easier or less realistic or that the previous model was broken or not as good as the new model? I prefer the new new more realistic prices go down as supply is met including VO and mining but not sure if that's how it started in Alpha 4? Is the Economic Sim more back to how it started?
 
Actually if FTL were more widely used it would completely undermine the Pilots Federation entire existence so maybe it is a conspiracy. Maybe the lore runs do deep we dont even see it yet....positive thinking :)
 
* I’m not sure if you were around during the Alpha, but when Frontier added the Economic Sim in Alpha 4, the instant a player added crowdsourced market data into the mix, trade profits plummeted, much to the dismay of some players. Frontiers response was to deliberately break their Economic Sim.
Around but I didn't have access, so I don't remember the exact details. But yes, another issue is that the persistence required by multiplayer even stops the game papering over some of the problems in the setting - every Elite game it's been true that the best way to make money from piracy is to sell your pirate ship, but it got really obvious when players started trying to pirate each other.

(And it also means that taking the fast info transfer that telepresence implies out of the setting is a little pointless when players can communicate out-of-game anyway)

I wasn't so genuinely asking as a bit unclear, do you mean salty players made the game easier or less realistic or that the previous model was broken or not as good as the new model? I prefer the new new more realistic prices go down as supply is met including VO and mining but not sure if that's how it started in Alpha 4? Is the Economic Sim more back to how it started?
It's not that the live economic sim doesn't have supply and demand - that's been there for years - it's that the sizes and speeds of the markets mean that in almost all cases almost all goods sit at "default" supply/demand, and if you trade something to move them off that, they'll probably be back to default by the time anyone else interested in the same good gets there.

It needs either a CG or some other rush focused on a single good to seriously shift it ... though isolated and semi-isolated economies like Colonia and Witch Head can display a little more interesting behaviour, and there was the great Palladium shortage in the bubble a couple of years ago.

They have been trying to make an economic sim which works sensibly even with crowdsourced data since - various significant changes in 3.0, 3.3 and 3.6 - but it's a slow process. I can give a lot more detail of how it works and what sort of changes were made in Beyond, but the technicalities are a bit off-topic for this thread.
 
I wasn't so genuinely asking as a bit unclear, do you mean salty players made the game easier or less realistic or that the previous model was broken or not as good as the new model? I prefer the new new more realistic prices go down as supply is met including VO and mining but not sure if that's how it started in Alpha 4? Is the Economic Sim more back to how it started?
The former.

The Economic Sim worked as it should: if you wanted a large supply of Tea (high profit trade good) at low cost, they needed Pesticides and Biowaste (low profit trade good) and crop harvesters (high profit trade good) to do so, otherwise supplies would fall, costs would rise, and profits would shrink. At the other end, if you wanted to maintain high demand of Crop Harvesters at high prices, you also needed to provide Pesticides and Biowaste so that they would be consumed in the production of Tea, otherwise demand would fall, as would prices, and profits would shrink.

There was a very vocal group of alpha testers who didn't like this situation, so Frontier dialed the "background" production up to 11, ensuring that enormous (for the time) profits could be made for all. Game didn't even make it to Premium Beta before the first wave of easy credits was added by Frontier, accompanied by a radical cutting of operating costs. :rolleyes:

This Economic Sim is actually still there, operating in the background. But it takes a lot of players putting stress on a system before you can actually see its effects. It pretty much takes a Community Goal for that to happen. If you know the "ingredients" to produce the extremely profitable CG's commodity, you can actually boost production of nearby system to fill you ship's cargo hold, it's a strategy I've used a couple times. Problem is that the "boosted" production is fairly small compared to the "background" production, you need to know what the "recipe" is (I know a grand total of three... including Tea), and its only effective if you can buy the "ingredients" from the CG station. But it is there.

edit:

Around but I didn't have access, so I don't remember the exact details. But yes, another issue is that the persistence required by multiplayer even stops the game papering over some of the problems in the setting - every Elite game it's been true that the best way to make money from piracy is to sell your pirate ship, but it got really obvious when players started trying to pirate each other.

(And it also means that taking the fast info transfer that telepresence implies out of the setting is a little pointless when players can communicate out-of-game anyway)

Personally, I really think this game would've been a lot better as single player. For one thing, they could've added a difficulty level, for those of us who don't enjoy skinner box games. Oh, well, it is what it is.
 
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It pretty much takes a Community Goal for that to happen. If you know the "ingredients" to produce the extremely profitable CG's commodity, you can actually boost production of nearby system to fill you ship's cargo hold
Interesting - I'd be interested in trying to quantify this effect further, to separate it out of the general BGS state effects on production. Would you mind sharing the sets of ingredients you know, please?

I suspect the Alpha changes were not so much a direct response to the complaints but about them watching what was happening and thinking about how this might scale up to the full bubble - getting the economy to be dynamic but also to not have massive fluctuations or dead spots due to player numbers feels extremely difficult to balance, and they were probably right to start off live with something relatively unresponsive.
 
telepresence head-cannon
The cmdrs are: genetically modified, augmented, possibly enhanced with A.I. Allowing them superior reaction times and in general smarter than anyone not a part of the Pilots Federation (players are much more dangerous/unpredictable than NPCs). A part of those modifications allow a cmdr to telepresence their "mind" into another ship, which no unmodified human can do. Co-pilots are also modified but to a lesser degree, so they can fly telepresenced into a SLF but will never have the capabilities cmdrs have. These modifications also allow a commander's mind to transfer into available clones in the event of death. Development in the SLF pilots tech now allows them also to transfer their mind into a clone as well.
 
Fully disagree that Elite universe is not coherent. If anything Elite is as coherent is it gets in sci-fi world. Star wars (while not proper sci-fi, but still) is a Disneyland and Star Treks humanoid aliens rendered it ridiculous to me.
Elite has no artificial gravity, has no humanoid aliens (Guardians aside) and in general "believable" as a distant future.

My only gripe is the Alien vs. Predator setting with the Thargoids and Guardians. Thargoids greeny biomechanical design meets with the humanoid predator Guardians. Elite's logo echoes ancient Egypt vibes too that again go in hand with Guardian symbols.

Yes.

However, telepresence - or even any inter-system capability at all - is not required for FTL comms. If every ship, on hyperspace, gives the market data for its previous system to its new system, and then that market data was also included in outbound jumps, then full market data for the other side of the bubble will likely be available with only 30 minutes lag. Even if there isn't that much cooperation, a smaller network of traders could probably get comprehensive market data at least as good as EDDB, which is good enough for most purposes.

For "Age of Sail" economics to make any sense, the key is that the comms and transport delays are long enough that the market could plausibly have collapsed or boomed in the time for comms to go from A to B, and a ship to get back from B to A, and therefore the negotiations required for a seller in A to deal directly with a buyer in B can't easily happen. Even with the BGS being massively accelerated for gameplay purposes, that doesn't happen in Elite Dangerous.

Unsure why FTL comms would not allow trading - we have de facto FTL comms on Earth today and massive dislocations still happen as well as significant price variances, depending on local crubs, taxes and whatnot. Consider the size of the bubble and trading complexity ensues.
 
Unsure why FTL comms would not allow trading - we have de facto FTL comms on Earth today and massive dislocations still happen as well as significant price variances, depending on local crubs, taxes and whatnot. Consider the size of the bubble and trading complexity ensues.
Yes, but on Earth container shipping takes about 30 days from e.g. China to Europe. Even air freight apparently takes about 3 days for bulk goods.

System to system in the bubble is about ten minutes, which shouldn't allow significant price differentials to form - certainly not to the extent that they need to for gameplay.

(The FE2/FFE model which had travel times of weeks between ports - giving similar difficulties on transmitting market data between systems - and relatively small per-tonne profit margins on most goods, sure, that was somewhat coherent. The FSD should have flattened inter-system trading and markets, though, and for valid gameplay reasons only it hasn't)
 
Yes, but on Earth container shipping takes about 30 days from e.g. China to Europe. Even air freight apparently takes about 3 days for bulk goods.

System to system in the bubble is about ten minutes, which shouldn't allow significant price differentials to form - certainly not to the extent that they need to for gameplay.

(The FE2/FFE model which had travel times of weeks between ports - giving similar difficulties on transmitting market data between systems - and relatively small per-tonne profit margins on most goods, sure, that was somewhat coherent. The FSD should have flattened inter-system trading and markets, though, and for valid gameplay reasons only it hasn't)

Fair point (especially considering the shipping costs, while fuel is free in Elite), though travel times also defeat the purpose of terraforming planets - and the boundaries of bubble.
I guess that is the price we pay for getting anywhere in reasonable time while having a believable world around us.
 
We tend to suspend disbelief for games and movies as long as they fulfill their entertainment roles enough: Star Wars and Star Trek are obvious examples, with the former seeming to have left information technology somewhere in the late 1970s and the rest in the far future, and the latter seeming to have forgotten about human nature (at least until Roddenberry died and Deep Space 9 was made).

Elite Dangerous telepresence and 3D printing make sense if we think of ourselves as drone pilots, but placed within a legal framework that limits our ability to roam about and do whatever we want with it. The rest of the galactic population outside the Pilots Federation are basic wetbags still prone to permadeath and all that.

It could be on the last day of the game, we are all treated to an animation of our pale-grey slug-like bodies being washed out of their life-support chambers and dumped at the base of Jameson Memorial with all the other rubbish.

:D S
 
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