Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

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What do you expect me to cool this thing with? Water? :sneaky:

Honestly, it's things like this that make me wonder how SC doesn't set entire rooms on fire if you ask it to do something on the more "technically challenging" end.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijoyw8h8LqM

So. Much. Rendering.
That flight model and lag, noooo 😞

Look, CIG, it's really simple: pick one of the best space flight models and just copy them, job done. Elite Dangerous, Freespace 1 or 2, X-Wing vs Tie-fighter, Infinity Battlescape, Independence War 2, whatever.

Just not this no-clip trash :(
 
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Even their latest video showcasing planetary creation is supposedly entirely procedural. Except it's more efficient as it completely bypasses procedural generation.

But then the artist has to go and manually place everything. It's utterly bonkers.
 
Having exploration ships in ED makes sense with 400 billion star systems to explore.

Exploration ships in NMS makes sense with iro 109 trillion star systems to explore.

Star Citizen will have, maybe, 100 star systems. Maybe. At some point. Hopefully. If Chris is to be believed.
Though the problem doesn't reside only in scale or location numbers. Even if finite and not that big, world of Breath of the Wild, GTAV or largely smaller ones like Outer Wilds and Prey can provide great exploration.

Sure you must have content, but you must have first and foremost proper level (and don't mean visual one) and gameplay designs.
 
Though the problem doesn't reside only in scale or location numbers. Even if finite and not that big, world of Breath of the Wild, GTAV or largely smaller ones like Outer Wilds and Prey can provide great exploration.

Sure you must have content, but you must have first and foremost proper level (and don't mean visual one) and gameplay designs.
It's either-or. You either have lots of semi-similar stuff (like Elite, NMS, procedural generation is good for stuff like empty/generic planets, which are actually fairly realistic) or you have lots of content to discover in a smaller place (like situations, events, interesting spots).

SC so far has neither, because their procgen doesn't work well enough and their manpower is directed at compensating for that, meaning they lack manpower to make more/better situations/events/etc.

And of course their stuff is spread over many minutes / hours of flight, which is silly, GTA/BotW/Skyrim have interesting exploration exactly because they have so much on little space, you never travel more than few minutes between some interesting stuff.
 
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Having exploration ships in ED makes sense with 400 billion star systems to explore.

Exploration ships in NMS makes sense with iro 109 trillion star systems to explore.

Star Citizen will have, maybe, 100 star systems. Maybe. At some point. Hopefully. If Chris is to be believed.
Look, they're all in the pipeline. Every month 2 more get chucked in. So what they do there, you ask? They are processed and brought up to speed in the particle accelerator.
 
Though the problem doesn't reside only in scale or location numbers. Even if finite and not that big, world of Breath of the Wild, GTAV or largely smaller ones like Outer Wilds and Prey can provide great exploration.

Sure you must have content, but you must have first and foremost proper level (and don't mean visual one) and gameplay designs.

An interesting observation.

What makes exploration viable?

Most important I d say is the "unknown". There has to be areas either hidden or far away that require an active effort and curiosity to make the player make that effort. Oftentimes a lot of exploration is covered by regular gameplay. Missions or activities that send you into unknown areas. Many sandbox games start out with a giant unknown map and simply by playing the tutorial or doing whatever catches your eye you uncover a certain percentage and sniff out things to do.

Now some games try to advertise their gameplay as a specialization meaning the player makes the decision to focus mainly on exploration while neglecting other (maybe more lucrative) activities. Several things need to be checked to make that possible.

  • reward system
  • deeper layers of exploration allowing dedication or justifying the singular focus
  • exploration specific obstacles or challenges that offer a different gamestyle to say...trading or mission running

Most games concentrate on the reward system. By uncovering the whole map you unearth locations, lore, see beautiful places or can participate in unique events. Of course oftentimes exploration is driven by the "completionist" urge when people get tired of doing side missions, fighting, developing their character and they look for something different to do or just try to get that 100% before moving on. Games like EVE make exploration a whole profession on its own giving access to tools and skills that allow the explorer to do things somebody who doesnt make that conscious choice isnt going to do. Ship customization plays into this as well as specific skills that require a hard choice because you drop other things for it. In ED you become an explorer by venturing outside the bubble thus entering an unforgiving environment where simple mistakes or oversights can cost you your life. Suddenly you have to consider things that never were a concern before.

For Star Citizen I m going to say that a good portion of exploration already came right-out-of-the-box with cryengine and the space legs implementation. Usually its not systems or planets in SC because there are hardly any but its stuff like derelicts, caves or outposts that invite to explore. The simple going-out trying to discover things is already covered. But SC is missing the things that would justify a dedication to exploration or becoming an explorer. Everybody can do this, regardless of equipment or ship. You might not be as good as a real explorer (what is that anyway in SC-terms? Just the ship you fly?) but due to the lack of skills the only distinction is your own activity. Scan mechanics, exploration mini-games....all that is missing so right now SC only has covered the "basics".

And the basics entail doing exploration for the sake of exploration because besides complexity SC is also missing content. There are caves and derelicts but the few that exist are already mapped out and probably worn down from all the visitors that checked them out by now. With only a few systems SC (planned, also not realized so far) probably never will beckon like EVE, ED or NMS where the "unknown" is galaxies or star systems away. And only offering designed content/locations runs into the same problem a lot of games before ran into. "Content locusts" will consume new content faster then the developers can ever provide them. Maybe you could save up content to satisfy hardcore players for a couple weeks upon release but from then on its that problem again. Some games bet on procedural generated content to continue give people an incentive to explore. New temporary warppoints or maybe events. And while this is certainly open to Star Citizen as well I havent seen any capability so far to exploit that or even make apush in that direction. CIGs procedural generation engine is unable to deliver content on its own without heavy oversight or human touch which prevents them into tapping into the core strength of that technology.

A full-blown exploration carreer requires an activity-specific design either by skills or features/mechanics that support or enable that profession. Star Citizen doesnt have any of that so far. Worse....in year 8 of development CIG is unable to share specifics but rather describes future "eventualities" as if nobody is sure yet how this will play out. Its save to assume CIG doesnt have a plan for exploration to date. Personally this would be a gigantic red flag to me but maybe I m just impatient or something. People hope for a clever design but the key word here is "hope" and I feel that this would be a massive mistake to make in terms of project development. Either you have absolutes or you dont. You know what to do or you dont. At the very least you need to know the goal to work for. Maybe we as backers and the community are not entitled to these answers but what we can observe to date suggests even the developers working on this game dont know the answers (or are not allowed to share them....for whatever reason).

Right now Star Citizens old advertisement "do whatever you want to do" certainly holds but it does that because no matter what you do....its not important. Exploration doesnt require you to make a conscious decision or to minmax your character or ship. Exploration is possible because it has zero requirements and the only reward right now is your motivation when you "feel" like it. The other side is that the few locations that even allow exploration are "hidden". This SC isnt and probably never will be "chock full of content to last a lifetime".

You can explore in SC depending on how new or roleplay-oriented you are and I believe people when they say they like it but we need to underline that SCs exploration capabilities are pretty much covered by the basic implementation so far. Space legs, movement and distance. Apart from ships that are sold for extra money the explorer profession hasnt gotten any attention or love and we dont even know if theres a design paper on it. In terms of "exploration class" CIG is sitting at a fat zero % and i cant see them going to 50 or 100 in that regard. Too many "maybes" that need to be checked for that to happen. That means that SCs biggest lure in terms of exploration is content density and I dont think I need to answer that also :)

Star Citizen sounds great on paper but I feel we are at a point where "talking" simply isnt enough anymore. We should be able to glimpse the dream coming together or to have access to information that allows us to predict the next year of development tied to expectations and realistic estimates.

In 2020 and after spending 300 million dollars...sadly.....CIG and therefore Star Citizen is all-talk and hardly any substance. I feel like that is a realistic assessment without hate or pink-tinted goggles.
 
Indeed, and in SC, anything that CIG plonk down as being new is usually told about right there in the patch notes, and even if not, the play area is so small that with any amount of active players, everything will be discovered quickly. Due to the size of the 'verse, even the planned version, there is going to be nothing for a majority to discover, especially when combined with the speed stuff gets added.

In ED, while once you have seen an earthlike you've effectively seen them all, you can be the first to discover an earthlike, giving you some uniqueness to your discovery, and i think many explorers go out looking for the really rare stuff, like earhtlikes with rings or binary ones.

But as you say, the biggest red flag in relation to exploraiton is that as far as anyone can tell

CIG doesnt have a plan for exploration to date.
 
You can explore in SC depending on how new or roleplay-oriented you are and I believe people when they say they like it but we need to underline that SCs exploration capabilities are pretty much covered by the basic implementation so far. Space legs, movement and distance. Apart from ships that are sold for extra money the explorer profession hasnt gotten any attention or love and we dont even know if theres a design paper on it. In terms of "exploration class" CIG is sitting at a fat zero % and i cant see them going to 50 or 100 in that regard. Too many "maybes" that need to be checked for that to happen. That means that SCs biggest lure in terms of exploration is content density and I dont think I need to answer that also :)

Star Citizen sounds great on paper but I feel we are at a point where "talking" simply isnt enough anymore. We should be able to glimpse the dream coming together or to have access to information that allows us to predict the next year of development tied to expectations and realistic estimates.

In 2020 and after spending 300 million dollars...sadly.....CIG and therefore Star Citizen is all-talk and hardly any substance. I feel like that is a realistic assessment without hate or pink-tinted goggles.
Sure. As with "I technically can saw a tree with a butter knife".

CIG is all talk but next to no implementation. And everything is cart before horse, so a ship is designed and built before its underlying and/or dependent systems are even thought out. How can it go wrong?

And dreamers are all theorycraft based upon their (often) contradictory "design docs", talks and implementation from CIG.
 
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I've given up on 3.8.2 until it's more stable and they sort out disappearing aUEC or equipment. It really needed a database wipe between 3.8.1 and 3.8.2, I suspect a hot patch will serve up a wipe since there are so many having issues.
 
It's either-or. You either have lots of semi-similar stuff (like Elite, NMS, procedural generation is good for stuff like empty/generic planets, which are actually fairly realistic) or you have lots of content to discover in a smaller place (like situations, events, interesting spots).
Procedural generation gives you the ability to scale to planet and then extrapolate that into a galaxy. Empty/generic planets require a much simpler model with a much smaller rule set to code into the PG than would be required for an atmospheric planet. PG is still the only way to make atmospheric planets efficiently in a galaxy wide model. NMS art style cleverly avoids a lot of the complexity. It's also a great way of adding locations because if you build the piece of content in PG you can replicate it out across the galaxy. ED suffers because the ruleset is not yet varied enough to make things look different. The problem for SC was they are reliant on visuals, the amount of effort to get one atmospheric planet looking right in PG would have taken so much effort and time. Once done they could have a billion earth likes of course. Their V4 terrain model is a neat solution, but only works if there are limited systems.
 
But as you say, the biggest red flag in relation to exploraiton is that as far as anyone can tell
CIG doesnt have a plan for exploration to date.

Have you not seen their infomercial?

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok_JC-ClscY


(That vid will never get old... The terrible evolution of space aliens, the doctor scanning a planet, the 2001 theme played on a synthesised moog that's being sat on by a copyright lawyer. It's just a marvel...)

But anyways, they clearly have lots of plans. Why the Carrack just launched...

The Anvil Carrack features reinforced fuel tanks for long-duration flight, an advanced jump drive, and a dedicated computer core for jump charting operations... and a mapping-oriented sensor suite.

And all of them are fully... erm, they are,... well the sensor suite looks very pretty alright....

hub_large.png


Plus game functionality is just a long-term plan. They have lots of long-term plans...

Exploration is the discovery and surveying of unknown locations and jump points. Equipped with powerful sensors and extended fuel tanks, explorers push the boundaries of known space for the opportunity to make the Next Big Discovery. Even explorers who don't make grand discoveries still earn significant money by selling the location of interesting anomalies to researchers, surveying ore-rich asteroids, or conducting stealthy military reconnaissance.[2]

The exploration of jump points will be an important part of expanding the universe, as they are the only method of travelling between systems. Although most of known space is connected by jump points, there are still many that have yet to explored.[3] Exploring a jump point is dangerous, requiring manual control and dexterity to navigate the dangerous and narrow warp-space corridor.[4]

Sit Rep:

Systems: 1
Jump Gates: 0

PS I totally discovered Pyro first!
 
Their V4 terrain model is a neat solution, but only works if there are limited systems.
It's still almost completely manual, and requires a LOT of manpower for each planet/moon:

For a good example, see how long they take to make Microtech's moons with their new fantastic PG system. I think it will be 6 months total when they release 3.9 ?
So 6 months for 3 moons. Lets try and extrapolate that to 100 systems, each in average having 5 planets with each 3 moons... that's about 250 years before they release the promised 100 systems, at current rate.
 
(That vid will never get old... The terrible evolution of space aliens, the doctor scanning a planet, the 2001 theme played on a synthesised moog that's being sat on by a copyright lawyer. It's just a marvel...)

:ROFLMAO: I shouldn't laugh to the jokes of Unbelievers but some times you just gotta do it.
 
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