Gankers vs ATR?

[Just Paul]

Well you take starter Sidewinder after all your modules all your ships are taken away and you still does not have money to cover debts. So starter ship is it and that 10 000 creds in your balance.

And what comes to seal clubbing it is just cheaper to do than blasting more expensive ships. Eventually though expenses would make it expensive hobby too.

Oh man, I can see the salt flowing from people than what you proposed is turned around. I would take my Cutter with 1% hull to the station and let it float into somebody, instant 1bil bill for them. Nobody goes by the speed limit and the ADC will get you exploded in busy stations. Seen it many times. So many fun ways to get salt. The hamster wheel in my head is spinning out of control.
Plus how does your proposal deal with BGS interactions or any other player-driven conflict. It seems to me you only play 1/16 of this inch deep game.

You still advocating for seal clubbing. How many Sidewinders can I blow up until I reach the value of a Cutter? They need some help and advise in the universe, not you in your Cutter. You should have gotten gud enough to have no issue with hostile player interactions. If not Git Gut.

As I said before @M00ka's proposal would be a good start and I would love to see something like that implemented. Everybody can play the role they want without major restrictions. You just need to mainly stay on your side of the coin until you put enough work in to change it around or get neutral. No easy flip-flopping for both sides. It would be equally rewarding to kill a CMDR in a high-sec system as running a high value trade run into an Anarchy system.

 

[McDark]

What's stopping ya?

Not the point.

It's not about how individual players should be forced to play within the current game mechanics. It's about how the game mechanics could be improved that can better accommodate different play styles in the same open world in a believable fashion. And right now, the C&P system is most definitely not that.

 

[M00ka]

Oh man, I can see the salt flowing from people than what you proposed is turned around. I would take my Cutter with 1% hull to the station and let it float into somebody, instant 1bil bill for them. Nobody goes by the speed limit and the ADC will get you exploded in busy stations. Seen it many times. So many fun ways to get salt. The hamster wheel in my head is spinning out of control.
Plus how does your proposal deal with BGS interactions or any other player-driven conflict. It seems to me you only play 1/16 of this inch deep game.

You still advocating for seal clubbing. How many Sidewinders can I blow up until I reach the value of a Cutter? They need some help and advise in the universe, not you in your Cutter. You should have gotten gud enough to have no issue with hostile player interactions. If not Git Gut.

As I said before @M00ka's proposal would be a good start and I would love to see something like that implemented. Everybody can play the role they want without major restrictions. You just need to mainly stay on your side of the coin until you put enough work in to change it around or get neutral. No easy flip-flopping for both sides. It would be equally rewarding to kill a CMDR in a high-sec system as running a high value trade run into an Anarchy system.

maybe I should throw my idea into the suggestion sub-forum, see what the experts think?

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

You don't offer carrots to psychopaths to persuade them not to murder. You hit them with a big stick when they do.

We're players, not psychopaths. Please, get a grip on the difference between a game and real life.

 

[McDark]

We're players, not psychopaths. Please, get a grip on the difference between a game and real life.

Of course. I am talking about the in game mechanics. Geez!

To expand, is it believable that a human society would exist where indiscriminate murder sprees are tolerated with so little consequence? I posited the idea that if an asset such as the ATR existed, wouldn't they be deployed in just these types of scenarios? And the consequences would be much more severe than a token fine?

I dunno. Just spitballing. Just not believable the way it is.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Of course. I am talking about the in game mechanics. Geez!

To expand, is it believable that a human society would exist where indiscriminate murder sprees are tolerated with so little consequence? I posited the idea that if an asset such as the ATR existed, wouldn't they be deployed in just these types of scenarios? And the consequences would be much more severe than a token fine?

I dunno. Just spitballing. Just not believable the way it is.

The answer is yes. Indiscriminate taking of life is very much tolerated as long as the proper people and institutions have given their blessing.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

The answer is yes. Indiscriminate taking of life is very much tolerated as long as the proper people and institutions have given their blessing.

Yup. Look no further than the world wars of last century for some great examples.

 

[M00ka]

Of course. I am talking about the in game mechanics. Geez!

To expand, is it believable that a human society would exist where indiscriminate murder sprees are tolerated with so little consequence? I posited the idea that if an asset such as the ATR existed, wouldn't they be deployed in just these types of scenarios? And the consequences would be much more severe than a token fine?

I dunno. Just spitballing. Just not believable the way it is.

Try to think of it in these terms:

The Superpowers (Federation, Empire and Alliance) are quite willing to go to war over the smallest thing and will fight to the death (well someone's death, no necessarily their own) to up hold the current status quo. And anyone can drop into these battles and pick a side and just go for it, blowing up anyone who picked the other side. Plus things like slavery and the Empire for example, to the rest that is a terrible thing, to someone in the Empire it is normal.

The PowerPlay factions are even worse, they encourage the indiscriminate murder of someone from an opposing faction. Talk about cut throat turf wars, this is at another level!

Even your minor factions aren't blameless. They offer anyone missions to assassinate, to murder, to hunt down and exterminate. Hell they even offer up missions they know will incur a fine or bounty from them (think the data scanning ones). Bit like "hey go and rob a bank for us. yes we will set the local police onto you and if you aren't careful you will be destroyed but you will be paid of course - if you survive'. How damn stupid is that if you think bout it!

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

ATR uses the same weapons type like have all stations (so infact every ingame faction have access to this type of weapon). So it is nothing new in fact. If you want talk about bad logic, there are plenty of different topics where is NPCs presence, and theirs acting, clearly "magical".

Stations sit in one place, don't move, and are renown for their difficulty to assault. They use weapons larger and more powerful than anything a Vulture could ever swing.

Suddenly having that technology deployable on such a vast scale, remember that ATR is everywhere with response times in minutes-to-less, is incredibly poorly thought through.

Also, I dunno if you just lack reading comprehension or are trolling, but nowhere in my first post say that ATR's loadouts were the only, or biggest, problem with Elite's internal consistency or world building.

 

[Good Whiskey]

To expand, is it believable that a human society would exist where indiscriminate murder sprees are tolerated with so little consequence?

It's called Liberia.

 

[Vedmo]

It's called Liberia.

Parts of Chicago as well.

 

[McDark]

Yup. Look no further than the world wars of last century for some great examples.

But that's war. I think a closer analogy would be individuals deciding for no particular reason, one day to go out with an assault rifles to take pot shots at innocent folk going about their business. Would a handful of police armed with truncheons be sent after them? Or would it be left to members of public to sort it out? Or would they send the SWAT team? And then on finally catching them, would a small fine suffice as punishment? And be allowed keep their weapons?

 

[Good Whiskey]

Parts of Chicago as well.

Indeed.

I get the impression that quite a few people who post here about the impossibility of space being a lawless and dangerous place with few consequences for their actions don't know much about the real world or what happens in it. Just a casual observation.

Just because the cops come running in your cozy home town does not mean that most of humanity live their lives in such security and comfort. I do advocate for a better crime and punishment system, but never for the elimination of the freedom to kill whoever you want in an online game that takes place in a galaxy that is vast and therefore difficult to police.

 

[Good Whiskey]

I think we can close the thread down now that the psychopath trope has been rolled out

People who pop player pixels are total psychopaths, but not a word is said about all the Imperial slaves firmly wedged beneath the floorboards of our Cutters. That can be explained away as roleplay and "part of the game", but getting shot in the bum while landing on Farseer's porch? Madness! Would never happen in the "real world".

And on and on it goes.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

But that's war. I think a closer analogy would be individuals deciding for no particular reason, one day to go out with an assault rifles to take pot shots at innocent folk going about their business. Would a handful of police armed with truncheons be sent after them? Or would it be left to members of public to sort it out? Or would they send the SWAT team? And then on finally catching them, would a small fine suffice as punishment? And be allowed keep their weapons?

Blackwater. Iraqi occupation. Literally happened.

 

[McDark]

I think we can close the thread down now that the psychopath trope has been rolled out

Noooo!

It's apt. In the gaming world, we call it ganking/greifing. Translated to the real world we'd call it psychopathy. So how would you deal with that in the world world? With a token fine and get to keep your weapons?

I think there's been a few good ideas here. Linking it to the system security level being a good start.

 

[Good Whiskey]

The psychology of gankers is boring. One of them shot you. Wow. Do we really need to harp on the lameness of their motivations for doing so? What matters is that even if I wanted to live like a criminal in this game, it won't let me. "Wanted" posters don't exist in the Elite universe. We get blasted out of the sky for parking infractions, but the local good guys couldn't care less if I'm a heartless butcher. This game doesn't even hold you accountable for faction choices.

Like, if the Federation and the Empire ever go to war again, will the Federation think I'm a Duke, and will the Empire think I'm an Admiral? There is zero accountability around here, and my problem with that isn't all the innocent deaths... it's the lack of fun and depth and purpose to being a bad guy.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

But that's war. I think a closer analogy would be individuals deciding for no particular reason, one day to go out with an assault rifles to take pot shots at innocent folk going about their business. Would a handful of police armed with truncheons be sent after them? Or would it be left to members of public to sort it out? Or would they send the SWAT team? And then on finally catching them, would a small fine suffice as punishment? And be allowed keep their weapons?

Hold up.

To expand, is it believable that a human society would exist where indiscriminate murder sprees are tolerated with so little consequence?

That doesn't describe WW1 and WW2 perfectly? Heck, that's how you get a society where indiscriminate murder sprees are fine: have the state stamp a big old OK on it.

Besides, the Bubble is a boiling cauldron of war and conflict. A bunch of CMDRs getting wacked here and there wouldn't bat an eye.

But the ultimate point here is real life analogies and comparisons are problematic foundation for building actual gameplay mechanics. Sure, they can provide the context and flavor for what you do but it's more important to make a fun game that's enjoyable to play.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Noooo!

It's apt. In the gaming world, we call it ganking/greifing. Translated to the real world we'd call it psychopathy. So how would you deal with that in the world world? With a token fine and get to keep your weapons?

I think there's been a few good ideas here. Linking it to the system security level being a good start.

Hand-wringing and armchair psychology are useless in the face of what a game's rules and mechanics allow. A better idea than any hypothetical punitive measure would be to either learn evasive skills or play in the mode best suited for you.

 

[McDark]

Well if I decided to gank some newbies in a game and it makes me a psycho in that game then im quite willing to wear that badge with honour.

As for dealing with that sort of player behaviour well thats something nearly every other online mmo has to wrestle with but if you want to send npc after them then go ahead.

Of course. It's a role playing game. Play whatever role you like. That's ED's strength. I just think the way the game mechanics handles the psycho role is not quite right.