General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Ian Skippy]

Being fair to France, they (and other european countries like Holland) took most of the hit from the axis army when the axis were at the very top of their strenght.

There are actually two aspects here that are somewhat relevant in relation to Corona;

1) My country, the Netherlands, held out for five days. That was three days longer than Hitler planned, and in annoyance the city center of Rotterdam was flattened via serial raids. At the time we hid our only tank as we were very concerned the Germans might damage it, and we had paid good money for it. It was a combination of both individual bravery and a lack of strategic vision in an unwinnable war.

2) when ww2 started Germany was NOT the invincible army we today pretend it was. Thry did not yet have the overwhelming armour divisions, for example. They won because at the time the allied forces were woefully poorly communicating, and did not have a shared vision or set of goals. Had we known what the consequences were going to be, and how many millions had to risk or even give everything to rectify the situation, things might have been different.

This virus cares not for national borders or historic grudges. We might want to put those concepts to the back of our mind too, even if only for the time being.

 

[askavir]

Getting back on topic, here in Portugal the private schools took the initiative of closing down, and private companies are sending their employees to work from home (those who can). The government followed, and public schools will close next week. People are being asked to avoid public transportation if they can.

On the other hand, there are many people mistaking quarantine with vacation, and they're flocking to the beaches (it's been unusually hot), malls and in there was even a night club that organized a coronavirus themed party (I poop you not, this is real) that was full of people.

 

[ianw]

Can someone explain to me why the British position is "We are lucky if 5% of the population get the Virus" while most other sources I learned from say this Virus is going to pandemically infect about 60-80% or the human population worldwide? I am just curious, what is the science behind either of these 2 assesments ?

Not doubting your research but that figure isn't something I've seen quoted.

Following yesterday's Cobra meeting the following things are on rotation on BBC news today;

Capacity now for processing up to 2000 tests per day - requirement now based on symptoms - you won't now have to have been to an infected area to qualify for test
Don't call 111 if you have symptoms - look it up on the internet
Self isolate for 7 days (mild cases will be shedding much less virus after that period) if you have any symptoms including new persistent cough or fever
If after 7 days you are worse then call 111
One infected person is apparently more likely to infect lots of others at small gatherings than they would at large gatherings (regarding sporting and large events)
Blanket closing schools not considered effective yet as kids would mingle anyway elsewhere and many would end up at grandparents with parents unable to get time off work
Schools don't go on trips abroad
Over 70s at risk - step away from the Cruise liner!

Edit re spelling and all sorts of other stuff

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Bulletin from Dr John Campbell UK

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, wife of Canadian PM Justin Trudeau, has tested positive for coronavirus after returning from a trip to London, a statement from the PM's office says.

All humans have human bodies. Strangely we can forget this, and get momentarily surprised when Tom Hanks or other VIPs abruptly announce infection. Nobody has immunity till they get infected.

We should brace for lots of announcements of this nature, but somehow I think if Keith Richards announces, it will be really shocking.

 

[jasonbarron]

Getting back on topic, here in Portugal the private schools took the initiative of closing down, and private companies are sending their employees to work from home (those who can). The government followed, and public schools will close next week. People are being asked to avoid public transportation if they can.

On the other hand, there are many people mistaking quarantine with vacation, and they're flocking to the beaches (it's been unusually hot), malls and in there was even a night club that organized a coronavirus themed party (I poop you not, this is real) that was full of people.

I think a very common (and all too human) reaction to the news of coronavirus around our various communities is that it isn't really 'real' until you actually see it for yourself. In my community there's enough concern that the stores are out of toilet paper, but weekly conventions that draw small crowds of 2-3k per weekend are still being held, their organizers simply stating (paraphrasing them, obviously) that "it appears to only effect those with compromised immune systems, and we would hope that those people stay away from large gatherings." Incidentally, I'm supposed to be a vendor at such an upcoming event where my job is leaning in close to establish eye contact and firmly shake everyone's hand whilst doing so. I probably shake approximately 500 hands per such event, almost all the elderly who tend to make up my main base of customers.

I've opened a dialogue with the organizers explaining my concerns and to put it bluntly they think that I'm over-reacting. I don't think this is a unique situation; my region doesn't have any infected that we know of, so many think it won't come here, and instead of taking prudent precautions in advance, they'll wait until there's major community spread and then they'll react once it's too late.

 

[Raino]

but somehow I think if Keith Richards announces, it will be really shocking.

Naa, its his 5th incarnation already, meanwhile, he is immune against everything...

 

[AkenBosch]

We should brace for lots of announcements of this nature, but somehow I think if Keith Richards announces, it will be really shocking.

If that happens, he'll be in for a very hard time. The virus, I mean.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I think a very common (and all too human) reaction to the news of coronavirus around our various communities is that it isn't really 'real' until you actually see it for yourself. In my community there's enough concern that the stores are out of toilet paper, but weekly conventions that draw small crowds of 2-3k per weekend are still being held, their organizers simply stating (paraphrasing them, obviously) that "it appears to only effect those with compromised immune systems, and we would hope that those people stay away from large gatherings." Incidentally, I'm supposed to be a vendor at such an upcoming event where my job is leaning in close to establish eye contact and firmly shake everyone's hand whilst doing so. I probably shake approximately 500 hands per such event, almost all the elderly who tend to make up my main base of customers.

I've opened a dialogue with the organizers explaining my concerns and to put it bluntly they think that I'm over-reacting. I don't think this is a unique situation; my region doesn't have any infected that we know of, so many think it won't come here, and instead of taking prudent precautions in advance, they'll wait until there's major community spread and then they'll react once it's too late.

It is almost hardwired in our brains to assume 'business as usual' is in our future, and that at most some minor adjustments needs to be made to guarantee it. I have a spectacular book about how the Dutch government grappled with the prospect of nuclear annihilation during the cold war. What started in the early 50s as a a set of plans regarding what to do if a nuke would be dropped on our country ended with an insane number of contingency plans ultimately asking the question how we can 'prevent severe disruption of public life' in the event of, I kid you not, 'a full-scale nuclear assault of the USSR on Dutch soil' with up to an estimated 2000+(!) nuclear warheads dropped on our tiny country.

Obviously the correct answer is:"If the USSR drops 2000 nuclear warheads on us there is not going to be a public life in any shape or form." but that just was not acceptable.Same today: washing our hands a bit more? Sure. Canceling a business trip? Heck no! :/

 

[jasonbarron]

It is almost hardwired in our brains to assume 'business as usual' is in our future, and that at most some minor adjustments needs to be made to guarantee it. I have a spectacular book about how the Dutch government grappled with the prospect of nuclear annihilation during the cold war. What started in the early 50s as a a set of plans regarding what to do if a nuke would be dropped on our country ended with an insane number of contingency plans ultimately asking the question how we can 'prevent severe disruption of public life' in the event of, I kid you not, 'a full-scale nuclear assault of the USSR on Dutch soil' with up to an estimated 2000+(!) nuclear warheads dropped on our tiny country.

Obviously the correct answer is:"If the USSR drops 2000 nuclear warheads on us there is not going to be a public life in any shape or form." but that just was not acceptable.Same today: washing our hands a bit more? Sure. Canceling a business trip? Heck no! :/

Yeah, I hear you. In your profession I'm sure you know this aspect of the human psyche quite well: life goes on. It's a problem concerning community spread of the virus, but it is what it is. Personally I assume that if I haven't already caught it I'm going to in the near future, and my preparations are simply practical no-nonsense things.

Based on all the evidence I've seen, witness reports from survivors, global statistics, the knowledge that our government(s) at state and Federal levels almost aren't testing anyone besides foreign travelers and the wealthy and powerful, I actually suspect that I've already had it and gotten past.

 

[AkenBosch]

Obviously the correct answer is:"If the USSR drops 2000 nuclear warheads on us there is not going to be a public life in any shape or form."

If the USSR dropped 2000 nuclear bombs on Holland, there wouldn't have been any shape or form whatsoever, period.

In other news from the land of sun, mandolins and haphazard decisions, my tiny shop kept open since there are still lots of people in need of computers, peripherals and maintenance for those, but the boss is keeping up with all the work and I'm staying at home due to safety concerns for contacts with my old ones. Most of the other large techology retailers kept shops open, with the exception of Apple and Mediamarkt, luckily my gf works for the latter, she has same issues as me with her father at home. There are lots and lots of worker that are so much "happy" to be constantly bombarded by how they should avoid unnecessary contacts with people, and are forced by their employers to keep doing their arguably unnecessary work with a pair of gloves, a cheap mask and a pat on the back.

 

[Raino]

Aside those numbers of bombs and war historic let us see what numbers some real scientists pull on the table:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-outbreak-diamond-princess-cruise-ship-death-rate

 

[GJ51]

An angelic vision of the situation.

Everyone knows that the United States always acts in priority for their interest.

This does not detract from the qualities of the American soldiers, of course.

But to say that they were all volunteers for the heroism, no I can't believe it.

We understand your outlook.

The US does more than any other country on a global basis to improve living standards and provide emergency relief services. Not to mention keeping sea lanes open for trade. And as is the prevalent attitude in Europe, what the US contributes to the world is largely unappreciated. WE literally re-built Europe and Japan after WWII and established Pax Americana. Yet we get no appreciation for the stability and contributions we make to the world. So it is.

Your propensity to use the generalities brush underscores an incredible misunderstanding of the typical American who fought in WWI when the US was more rural and agrarian. Most simply answered the call and did so unselfishly. Not "ALL" but most. And post WWII when all the world was open for conquest if we had so desired, we rejected any notion of expansion and assisted around the globe to relieve the suffering from the devastation of war.

Your lack of gratitude and appreciation for what took place in order for you to sit at a computer and make these statements is astounding.

We don't do these things for gratitude and appreciation - though it would be nice - we do these things because it is the right thing to do.

Yes , we've made mistakes here and there, not all Americans are of the same monolithic ideology - but I'll let history speak for itself.

American exceptionalism is not a delusional myth - it's the historic reality since 1940. And you and your continent are beneficiaries.

 

[ianw]

Football, Rugby and other things are all self-cancelling in the UK. That's put a crimp in the getting enough healthy people to catch it to up the herd immunity plan.

Any volunteers for herd immunity duty? keeps hands firmly in pockets

The US has just cancelled The Masters.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NOEyJV7ntqM


Dr Gottleib with some encouraging news. Test kits are coming, and there is promising Pharma research along 2 lines.

Just one proviso regarding his contribution here:

He dismisses the use of generic chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine and zinc, which is a described protocol in South Korea. This is in favor of BIOLOGICS AND ANTIVIRALS, both of which cost gigantic sums per patient.

Gottleib sits on the board of Pfizer pharmaceuticals, and is being reimbursed to increase their sales. His opinion is biased because it is his job, please note also that this conflict of interest is Never Mentioned, and the info is being offered on a Business Channel that basically tells the audience what stock to buy.

We need study data to confirm if the cheaper option (already manufactured by the ton) works in humans, and how safe it might be in cases with cardiac complications. Remember, coronavirus screws up hearts too.

Hydroxychloroquine at 400mg/day is confirmed to be used in Korea on patients, it has a potent effect in live cell cultures where it kills the infection, and it costs pennies.
The Korean doses used were 200 mg twice a day, for 5 to 10 days, info freely available if you search. This is NOT a proven cure.

The biochemistry was covered on Medcram about a week ago, but it is old news to the pro community. I have boxes of it at home, bought about a month ago.
Just in case. (And nobody is paying me a cent to promote it or condemn it.)

You could probably buy it at the corner chemist/pharmacy with pocket change.
(That would be bad for Big Pharma, but cheap for you. I don't know why there is an effort to push against it now. No speculation on the timing.)

But maybe you should not-- because just giving it blindly could block electrical transmission in their heart. I have tried to avoid even talking about it before because of these risks. Please note I have the monitors and gear to watch heartbeats at home and fixing arrythmias is my day job, and I consider it a last ditch UNPROVEN move which of course is the kind of stupid hero stuff we all really want to do to save people.

Case reports suggest the pneumonia goes away, the chest CT clears up, and the average duration of illness is less. But there are as yet no documented studies. It may be doing more harm than good, maybe it is best for the pneumonia only cases, we just do not know yet.

If the studies break our way, maybe sell Pfizer. their share value is predicated that
HOCQ will not work.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

We don't do these things for gratitude and appreciation - though it would be nice - we do these things because it is the right thing to do.

We did what we did because Uncle Joe Stalin and the rest of the Soviet Union were staring us right in the face. Never mind we were in an amazing position following the end of the war and consciously decided to cash in on it. You don't become the world's first superpower because it's "the right thing to do."

That said, of course a lot of the things we did were objectively good things. Don't make the mistake it was magnanimity driving it.

 

[jasonbarron]

If you go back and examine my initial statement on the topic of WWII, a comment which started this whole tangent going, it can be plainly seen that I was expressly and exclusively pointing to an episode, a simple powerful example, in our shared history when people were particularly brave in the face of extreme adversity. An example of heroism, nothing more, nothing less. I could have used many others, but I'm sure they would have all been picked apart and denigrated, too. The politicizing and mis-characterizing of that initial comment, a comment that was nothing more than an appeal to our better natures and ennobling virtues in a time of confusion and uncertainty has been dragged upside down and backwards through the mud and excrement and it's pretty goddam sad to be honest.

Humans aren't perfect. Nations aren't perfect. But there is decency, goodness and heroism aplenty to be found despite this lack of perfection, even if your own world view point is to dark to see it.

 

[askavir]

We did what we did because Uncle Joe Stalin and the rest of the Soviet Union were staring us right in the face. Never mind we were in an amazing position following the end of the war and consciously decided to cash in on it. You don't become the world's first superpower because it's "the right thing to do."

That said, of course a lot of the things we did were objectively good things. Don't make the mistake it was magnanimity driving it.

I would also say all those japanese bombs falling on the Pearl Harbor naval base also helped put things in motion from the US side, much more than being "the right thing to do". And yes, US profited immensely from post-war loans to europe, but that's only fair - europe needed cash, US loaned that cash, and lots of of it. Mind that I'm not one of those "anti-american" types, nor am I trying to start any flame war between the US and europe, both have done great things and both have done mistakes. I do appreciate the US contribution (and Russia's) to turn the tide of the war. And I actually like a lot of things about America's way of life, most especially the value most of it's citizens place on their individual freedoms, I truly wish more europeans shared some of that sentiment too instead of realying so much on being herded by governments.

 

[askavir]

On the topic of heroism and goodness, in Portugal over 1000 doctors, some from the private sector, others out of retirement, just volunteered to help in struggling public hospitals.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

On the topic of heroism and goodness, in Portugal over 1000 doctors, some from the private sector, others out of retirement, just volunteered to help in struggling public hospitals.

Now that's the stuff right there!

(Too bad we don't have a proper WW2 history thread. )