General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Synkreto]

There's just one problem in Germany :

According to data gathered by Newspapers, some 2300 medical staff has been infected already and a considerable number is under quarantine. Actual number is likely higher.
( Google Translated Article )

As the common medical protective gear is insufficient against this high-grade Biohazard when in repeated/prolonged close contact with very high contamination levels - but no better material is available in the Hospitals and even the conventional FFP3 gear extremely difficult to restock - that's a trend that'll continue I'm afraid.

I do wonder why noone (AFAIK) has started issuing reusable lightweight protective masks (full face) with Particle Filters (i.e. P3 Standard).
Those aren't too stressful to wear and provide vastly improved protection, while still allowing normal work with a large/unobstructed field of view and protecting the entire face.
(I've only ever seen some staff i.e. handling bodies or from the military assisting wearing their (heavyweight) NBC masks)

I can only assume such gear is out of stock like any other.

Thats some shockingly bad news .

In Germany, reuseable P3 Filters are short to the point where companies/businesses who need them for their usual operations are looking at a Situation where they will have to shut down shortly .

Friend of mine was lucky to still get a fullfacemask a few weeks ago . Then realized the shortage of the propriaetary (spelling ? ) filters . But, he was smart enough to get a mask which also allows standard NATO 40mm cartridges to be used, and was able to stock up on these a bit .

And yes, when I was starting to try and get a filtering facepiece ( I was going for a halfmask ) weeks ago, there was about no way for me to still get one as a private person . By the time some supplies had popped up here and there ( at outrageous prices ofc. ), I was glad I had already learned about the filter shortage .

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Even in the worst global health crisis of the past 100 years, the United States is behaving like resource looters from other countries.

Indeed, France has ordered hundreds of millions of masks from China. Very recently a delivery of 5-10 million masks intended for France under a contract order, was stolen by the United States.

The specialty of the United States (against the France and without a doubt for many other countries) ?

On the tarmac of a Chinese airport, the Americans arrive in front of the plane which contains the millions of masks and pay 3-4 times the price to fly the orders which belong to the other countries.

Long live capitalism in the law of the jungle, and always a pleasure to have real friends.



-----------------------------------------------

I'd feel sorry for them, but they have stopped and seized medical supplies they produced or travelling through their country that were bound for the UK.

French guards impound trucks filled with face masks bound for Britain

After realising the truck was filled with face masks, border guards in France held it in the wake of Emmanuel Macron's promise to 'requisition' face masks for the French crisis.

www.google.com

 

[Northpin]

I do wonder why noone (AFAIK) has started issuing reusable lightweight protective masks (full face) with Particle Filters (i.e. P3 Standard).

I've seen articles about scuba dive full face masks equipped with filters.
Reusable and filters can be changed at will

 

[Synkreto]

AFAIK the filters are the issue, there is no way to get the quantity needed.

I mentioned it 1 or 2 pages ago...it seems standard retail single use coffee filters filter particles down to 10nm . Breathing still seems to be possible ( didnt get around to buy any yesterday, am an Espresso man ) .Still researching to get more, and detailled Information on this...but this could be really helpfull with the types of Masks popping up everywhere where you can insert some kind of filtertissue yourselves .

 

[askavir]

Nah. People just figured it would be less severe than the flu, go magically away, and generally not be a reason to do any kind of containment and migitation measures, 'cos "economy" .

In truth, the entire western world, starting with europe, did exactly that: nothing until it was already late. Then we watched the spread in Italy, while doing little to nothing. Then Spain, and still almost nothing. Only when the bodies started to drop in our own countries, then finally we rushed to implement containment measures (better late than never though).

In fairness, and that's their biggest flaw IMO, the US could have learned something from the many mistakes made all over europe, but they did exactly the same as us: next to nothing until the bodies started to drop. Ultimately they have the very same problem that europe has had for a long time: politicians with no balls, and to whom the interests of the people who they supposedly represent are far from being priority number one, unless it directly affects votes.
They also face addiitonal problems, like dozens of high-density population mega-cities where the virus will spread like wildfire. And at 300 million population (I think?), their total numbers would always going to be high.

 

[Synkreto]

In truth, the entire western world, starting with europe, did exactly that: nothing until it was already late. Then we watched the spread in Italy, while doing little to nothing. Then Spain, and still almost nothing. Only when the bodies started to drop in our own countries, then finally we rushed to implement containment measures (better late than never though).

In fairness, and that's their biggest flaw IMO, the US could have learned something from the many mistakes made all over europe, but they did exactly the same as us: next to nothing until the bodies started to drop. Ultimately they have the very same problem that europe has had for a long time: politicians with no balls, and to whom the interests of the people who they supposedly represent are far from being priority number one, unless it directly affects votes.
They also face addiitonal problems, like dozens of high-density population mega-cities where the virus will spread like wildfire. And at 300 million population (I think?), their total numbers would always going to be high.

I really feel like a broken record here, but I am looking at the initial response of the country I live in, and feel like I have to say : not every Country in the western world, or Europe . Not to say everything was perfect, but repsonse here had/has distinct differences to ANY of the now really hard hit "First World" countries .

 

[Han_Zen]

All the online hardware stores seem to have plenty of masks. All types. Full face, half face, replaceable particle filters and so on. Some are even officially approved for virus protection.
Pharmacies seem to be sold out, but elsewhere they are available around here.

 

[Ian Skippy]

In a little sidenote: the Netherlands received 600,000 masks from China a week ago, and after distributing them to hospitals discovered they did not meet the Dutch hospital standards and had to be recalled. This was widely published around the globe, with some going so far as to suggest it was deliberate bio-terrorism by China. Today another explanation surfaced: in the scamble for PPE translation errors between Chinese and Dutch safety certificates were made, and by accident non-surgical masks were ordered by our government. Government is investigating what factually happened as reports from China state the boxes were explicitly labeled 'non-surgical' in English.

Update: Dutch minister now says he wants to move forward and it isn't important whether mistakes were made or by whom. I'm sure this'll be revisited after the crisis...

 

[Ian Skippy]

And in other news Belgium appears to have successfully flattened the curve, with hospitalizations per day being pretty much static for the last few days. ICU is a little over half capacity, so it seems an overload will be prevented.

Excellent!

 

[ianw]

Sure, but news outlets aren't science. Science doesn't push an agenda, but people who push an agenda often abuse science to do so.

Yes - it seems the UK government early on used scientific advice heavily weighted by statisticians and behavioral science without much input from experts in handling epidemics.

So they went down the non-testing route until the WHO and everyone else shouted at them and now they're trying to play catch-up.

Experts are great - providing of course you have the right ones at the right time.

 

[metatheurgist]

In truth, the entire western world, starting with europe, did exactly that: nothing until it was already late. Then we watched the spread in Italy, while doing little to nothing. Then Spain, and still almost nothing. Only when the bodies started to drop in our own countries, then finally we rushed to implement containment measures (better late than never though).

In fairness, and that's their biggest flaw IMO, the US could have learned something from the many mistakes made all over europe, but they did exactly the same as us: next to nothing until the bodies started to drop. Ultimately they have the very same problem that europe has had for a long time: politicians with no balls, and to whom the interests of the people who they supposedly represent are far from being priority number one, unless it directly affects votes.
They also face addiitonal problems, like dozens of high-density population mega-cities where the virus will spread like wildfire. And at 300 million population (I think?), their total numbers would always going to be high.

The Republican Governor of Ohio did the right thing. Such much for the claims that nothing could be done.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Thats some shockingly bad news .

In Germany, reuseable P3 Filters are short to the point where companies/businesses who need them for their usual operations are looking at a Situation where they will have to shut down shortly .

Friend of mine was lucky to still get a fullfacemask a few weeks ago . Then realized the shortage of the propriaetary (spelling ? ) filters . But, he was smart enough to get a mask which also allows standard NATO 40mm cartridges to be used, and was able to stock up on these a bit .

And yes, when I was starting to try and get a filtering facepiece ( I was going for a halfmask ) weeks ago, there was about no way for me to still get one as a private person . By the time some supplies had popped up here and there ( at outrageous prices ofc. ), I was glad I had already learned about the filter shortage .

Yep, I basically did the same but luckily well ahead of time when supplies were still untouched for high-grade protection.
The NATO RD40 compatibility also ensures compatibility of civilian filters following the common EN 148/1 specification.
(my spare RD40 Filters are beyond the plain P3 standard, all combined with active coal Filters against organic compounds)

The difference in protection compared to typical FFP1, 2 or 3 is profound

( Source : https://www.draeger.com/Library/Content/filter-selection-guide-br-9046529-en.pdf )

 

[Synkreto]

Yep, I basically did the same but luckily well ahead of time when supplies were still untouched for high-grade protection.
The NATO RD40 compatibility also ensures compatibility of civilian filters following the common EN 148/1 specification.
(my spare RD40 Filters are basically beyond the plain P3 standard, all combined with active coal Filters against organic compounds)

The difference in protection compared to FFP1,2 or 3 is profound
View attachment 167716
( Source : https://www.draeger.com/Library/Content/filter-selection-guide-br-9046529-en.pdf )

Good on you . So much better than shoving coffee filters into a selfsewn cloth mask XD .

 

[askavir]

The Republican Governor of Ohio did the right thing. Such much for the claims that nothing could be done.

Now that is a proper community leader, daring to take difficult and potentially impopular actions BEFORE being forced by circunstances. Were more people like that man in power all over the world, and the body count might have been much lower all around.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Now that is a proper community leader, daring to take difficult and potentially impopular actions BEFORE being forced by circunstances. Were more people like that man in power all over the world, and the body count might have been much lower all around.

FWIW, Belgium initiated a nation-wide lockdown when the total death count in the entire country was 14, after two days of zero casualties. The sooner the better, of course, but I can't really fault them much here. Very drastic measures really early on. But props to the Governor for sure (who had it even harder because he had to go against his own party even)!

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

I’d be interested to read the global manifesto on what gov’s should do in a pandemic - I imagine there’s something in it about not panicking the public into buying surgical masks because our health services will need them...
When I had to recently go get some food supplies in the uk, seeing people queuing up for the til maintaining their 2m distancing without any masks, it’s quite clear there’s a lot of risk imho.

 

[jasonbarron]

I really feel like a broken record here, but I am looking at the initial response of the country I live in, and feel like I have to say : not every Country in the western world, or Europe . Not to say everything was perfect, but repsonse here had/has distinct differences to ANY of the now really hard hit "First World" countries .

Don't you have somewhere around 80k cases so far?

 

[ianw]

I’d be interested to read the global manifesto on what gov’s should do in a pandemic - I imagine there’s something in it about not panicking the public into buying surgical masks because our health services will need them...
When I had to recently go get some food supplies in the uk, seeing people queuing up for the til maintaining their 2m distancing without any masks, it’s quite clear there’s a lot of risk imho.

Well the WHO have only just started to look into it - having previously said it wasn't necessary for the general public.

I think back over the last few weeks we've had.

They don't work very well if not fitted properly
They get moist and lose their efficiency
They do reduce the oral virus shedding from people who are infected (asymptomatic or not)

And now - the stats seem to show that countries that have been doing the mask thing for some time have the thing better under control, I guess they always have sufficient stocks. Whether their virus control success is all down to masks or masks are just part of a package of things working remains to be seen.

They sold out in no time. I had a couple of the PP3 ellipse half masks in a screwfix basket a few weeks ago, (I have one already that I used a couple of years ago for diy machinery tile cutting protection) but based on all the advice back then it seemed overkill so I didn't push the button.

ETA - Obv different types perform very differently too. And you need eye protection to cover all the head based moist ways into the body.

 

[Synkreto]

Well the WHO have only just started to look into it - having previously said it wasn't necessary for the general public.

I think back over the last few weeks we've had.

They don't work very well if not fitted properly
They get moist and lose their efficiency
They do reduce the oral virus shedding from people who are infected (asymptomatic or not)

And now - the stats seem to show that countries that have been doing the mask thing for some time have the thing better under control, I guess they always have sufficient stocks. Whether their virus control success is all down to masks or masks are just part of a package of things working remains to be seen.

They sold out in no time. I had a couple of the PP3 ellipse half masks in a screwfix basket a few weeks ago, (I have one already that I used a couple of years ago for diy machinery tile cutting protection) but based on all the advice back then it seemed overkill so I didn't push the button.

In today's briefing, the german Robert - Koch - Institute was pretty clear on its assesment of "masks" .

Anything actively filtering ( n95/99, FFP2/3 or better standards ): NEEDS to be reserved for medical/care facility staff . These people are increasingly getting sick because of shortage, and people are dieing because of that .

Anything else ( surgical one time masks, selfsewn cloth masks ) : may be usefull in preventing an infected person from shedding the Virus . No evidence whatsoever that they are anyhow helpfull protecting oneself . The effect of preventing spread of Virus from infected goes down over time, due to the moisturizing of the masks . Other risks : people may get a wrong sense of security...people may not fit them properly...people may start fiddling with them, touching their face, increasing their risk of infection...

In light of the above : Considering the problem with incubation time, as well as asymptomatic people spreading, it is easy to think simple surgical or cloth masks could make all the difference . But it is STILL depressingly easy to protect oneself from getting infected in most situations . Actually, "Stay AT HOME unless absolutely necessary!" and "KEEP DISTANCE ! AND DO NOT MEET UP WITH PEOPLE!" works remarkably well . Its just, people do not want to do that .

The danger is that if too many people start thinking "oh yeah, I have a mask, it will protect me", and then also use it wrong, the whole mess will become worse again in no time .

Also, do not forget that nations who report a pretty well working containment use measures that are almost "unthinkable" in EU and US : contacttracing via mobile data ; forced taking of temperature, forced quarantine ; also, higher discipline and understanding of the general population for drastic containment measures . Also, extreme measures like shutdowns/lockdowns have been introduced with no hesitation, without having the entire population clamouring about their individual freedoms being curtailed .


The RKI today was also absolutley clear on 2 more things : Germany NEEDS to keep containment measures up . And, Germany is still at risk of HealthCare System becoming overrun .

RKI dashboard:

Experience

experience.arcgis.com

p.s.: I am in the northern Area of the dark blue part in the south XD .

 

[ianw]

In today's briefing, the german Robert - Koch - Institute was pretty clear on its assesment of "masks" .

Anything actively filtering masks ( n95/99, FFP2/3 or better standards ): NEED to be reserved for medical/care facility staff . These people are increasingly getting sick because of shortage, and people are dieing because of that .

Anything else ( surgical one time masks, selfsewn cloth masks ) : may be usefull in preventing an infected person from shedding the Virus . No evidence whatsoever that they are anyhow helpfull protecting oneself . The effect of preventing spread of Virus from infected goes down over time, due to the moisturizing of the masks . Other risks : people may get a wrong sense of security...people may not fit them properly...people may start fiddling with them, touching their face, increasing their risk of infection...

In light of the above : Considering the problem with incubation time, as well as asymptomatic people spreading, it is easy to think simple surgical or cloth masks could make all the difference . But it is STILL depressingly easy to protect oneself from getting infected in most situations . Actually, "Stay AT HOME unless absolutely necessary!" and "KEEP DISTANCE ! AND DO NOT MEET UP WITH PEOPLE!" works remarkably well . Its just, people do not want to do that .

The danger is that if too many people start thinking "oh yeah, I have a mask, it will protect me", and then also use it wrong, the whole mess will become worse again in no time .

Also, do not forget that nations who report a pretty well working containment use measures that are almost "unthinkable" in EU and US : contacttracing via mobile data ; forced taking of temperature, forced quarantine ; also, higher discipline and understanding of the general population for drastic containment measures . Also, extreme measures like shutdowns/lockdowns have been introduced with no hesitation, without having the entire population clamouring about their individual freedoms being curtailed .

Just saw this interesting related article 4 experts chip in on the mask convo

Looks like it could be Blue Peter time (primarily a reference for UK peeps)