Fleet Carriers - Trading and Exploration Improvements (NPCs buying commodities & specific exploration FC modules)

[Rubbernuke]

Again, what gameplay benefit is there in making exploration FCs so slow, many CMDRs simply won't use them for exploration?

It is what the limits are currently- live with them or don't.

Are you able to give me a benefit in making an exploration FC so unfit for purpose, explorers won't use it for exploration?

Remote repair, refuel, restock, thats a pretty neat thing when you lose your last SRV on the edge?

And to address your strawman, it's not a "race car", it's simply allowing an exploration FC to travel at a speed that is at least roughly in the same ball park as an average Anaconda. Not to instead make it so slow, exploration trips are hobbled by it.

And can an Anaconda make new SRVs or repair a powerplant out there? Whats the time to come back, and the risk?

 

[NeilF]

Will copy / paste here from another post I made.

...

Exploration :

• selling UC
• module allowing a faster jump sequence
• module that automatically fully scan / map every bodies in the system where the FC jump
• module that allow to "scan" a small "bubble" of X ly around where the system where the FC is and give probability to find WW, EW, POIs in one of the system inside the scanned "bubble"
• module that increase fuel scooping and FSD charge sequence when inside the X ly bubble previously described

...

Uncanny how similar so many of those are to the suggestions of this thread

I suspect it's because:-
1) Speed of travel - An Exploration FC is seemingly not fit for purpose due to how slow it is, and how it will impede exploration, rather than aid it. It should be able to travel at least at something approaching a standard Anaconda's speed surely?
2) Gameplay depth - There's almost no gameplay being added by exploration FCs to move the game forwards. Why aren't there a few Exploration related mechanics available for exploration FCs?

 

[Vedmo]

Surely a dedicated exploration FC should be able to jump long distances over times at least roughly in the same ball park as an average Anaconda? If not, why not? Why deter the use of this new content?

It isn't a tag along exploration ship. It is a fleet carrier. Applying the current standard of single ship exploration to it is deterring the use of this new content. It is for exploration trips built around having a Fleet Carrier offering services otherwise not available to an explorer or group of explorers. Group trips certainly seem more practical for it, which shouldn't be much of a surprise with Fleet being in the name. If the benefits of repairs, outfitting, reaching new places, swapping ships, or whatever else people may want from it aren't worth spending the time to bring one along, then so be it.

I don't recall the distance between the waypoints in Distant Worlds, but for something like that, with no FC's there to slow things down, it was a long and far less than optimal point A to point B travel time trip, with thousands of people interested enough to do it. Imagine now something like that, but with Fleet Carriers. All of the limitations of bringing one ship for the thousands of Commanders bringing different ships for different purposes on the trip would go away, in exchange for sticking around after each FC jump long enough for a large group effort to top off the fuel (when required).

It's just exploration centered around a massive ship, rather than exploration centered around a max jump range ship.

 

[NeilF]

It is what the limits are currently- live with them or don't.

So after FOUR requests to simply explain what gameplay improvement/benefit is there by my making exploration FCs so slow, and seemingly (needlessly) unfit for purpose for exploration, your answer is put your fingers in your ears? Understood...

 

[GraXXoR]

This ship can fly 250 LY Per hour MAXIMUM (assuming there are stars exactly 500LY away you can jump to, in the direction you want to jump)

Thus to get 25,000 LY to Colonia will take 100hrs minimum. Damn. That's crappy, An anaconda can jump once every 45 seconds.

 

[NeilF]

It isn't a tag along exploration ship. It is a fleet carrier. Applying the current standard of single ship exploration to it is deterring the use of this new content. It is for exploration trips built around having a Fleet Carrier offering services otherwise not available to an explorer or group of explorers. Group trips certainly seem more practical for it, which shouldn't be much of a surprise with Fleet being in the name. If the benefits of repairs, outfitting, reaching new places, swapping ships, or whatever else people may want from it aren't worth spending the time to bring one along, then so be it.

I don't recall the distance between the waypoints in Distant Worlds, but for something like that, with no FC's there to slow things down, it was a long and far less than optimal point A to point B travel time trip, with thousands of people interested enough to do it. Imagine now something like that, but with Fleet Carriers. All of the limitations of bringing one ship for the thousands of Commanders building different ships for different purposes on the trip would go away, in exchange for sticking around after each FC jump long enough for a large group effort to top off the fuel (when required).

Understood, but as I've said just a couple of times before, no one is suggesting an exploration FC should be the fastest means of travel, but are you able to explain the benefit of making them so much slower than a regular Anaconda (many many multiple times slower), so that they are all but pointless to take over long journeys for your average explorer due to their faff, what is added to the game?

In short, if an Exploration FC could travel at say 50% the speed of an average exploration Anaconda, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? What mechanic is being compromised/damaged? What is the problem with CMDRs actually being able to use their exploration FCs for exploration?

 

[Rubbernuke]

So after FOUR requests to simply explain what gameplay improvement/benefit is there by my making exploration FCs so slow, and seemingly (needlessly) unfit for purpose for exploration, your answer is put your fingers in your ears? Understood...

I've told you- FCs are not playthings like Sidewinders, they are mobile menus that bring facilities with them. They are not gameplay on their own, they extend what you can do. So, for the cost of time and energy you get whatever you refit your carrier with. This extends what you can do in your ships, designing them differently, or being more confident with mishaps.

 

[NeilF]

I've told you- FCs are not playthings like Sidewinders, they are mobile menus that bring facilities with them. They are not gameplay on their own, they extend what you can do. So, for the cost of time and energy you get whatever you refit your carrier with. This extends what you can do in your ships, designing them differently, or being more confident with mishaps.

So, again, you aren't you able to just explain what gameplay benefit there is in making them so slow they are practically unfit for purpose?

I'll make it really simply for you. Here you go:-

If an Exploration FC took only TWICE as long to travel somewhere compared to an Anaconda that would break the game because _ _ _ _ _ ?​

​

Clearly, it needs to take TWENTY TIMES as long because this befits the game with _ _ _ _ _ ?​

I'll await your answer with interest...

ps: "or being more confident with mishaps." - What exactly have you gone through all the "work" for, to earn and invest 5bCR, if not to have a bit of a benefit of perhaps be a bit more "confidence with mishaps"?

 

[Retropolitan]

I've told you- FCs are not playthings like Sidewinders, they are mobile menus that bring facilities with them. They are not gameplay on their own, they extend what you can do. So, for the cost of time and energy you get whatever you refit your carrier with. This extends what you can do in your ships, designing them differently, or being more confident with mishaps.

I think nearly everyone agrees with what you said here - it's just that these services add almost no value for exploration. And isn't another carrier role "Search and Rescue"? There's even less on offer that would make carriers attractive for that use.

 

[ADAMtheWELSHMANz]

Travelling and exploring are 2 very different things.

I use a stripped down Annie for getting to hard to reach systems, FSS'ing and probing (i.e. EXPLORING) as I go. Depending on what I find my FC should be able to keep pace quite nicely.

Using the same ship to TRAVEL from A to B as quickly as possible is a different kettle of fish entirely.

If you decide to TRAVEL 20kly before EXPLORING then yes, you will have to wait for the FC and all associated services it offers to catch up.

 

[NeilF]

If you decide to TRAVEL 20kly before EXPLORING then yes, you will have to wait for the FC and all associated services it offers to catch up.

OK...

And what's so importantly added to the gameplay/depth by making the FC twenty times (approx) slower than an Anaconda, and needing constant spoon feeding the entire time? What would be broken if it was for example - God forbid! - half the speed of an Anaconda?

What would be broken by an Exploration FC instead taking 4 weeks to get somewhere an Anaconda gets to in 2 weeks?

And is improved by an Exploration taking 40 weeks to get somewhere an Anaconda gets to in 2 weeks?

Most importantly, what is improved by making an Exploration FC so slow, many CMDRs won't use it for exploration?

 

[ADAMtheWELSHMANz]

What would be broken by an Exploration FC instead taking 4 weeks to get somewhere an Anaconda gets to in 2 weeks?

And is improved by an Exploration taking 40 weeks to get somewhere an Anaconda gets to in 2 weeks?

Most importantly, what is improved by making an Exploration FC so slow, many CMDRs won't use it for exploration?

Again, if an Anaconda is doing more than 1000ly an hour you're TRAVELLING not EXPLORING.

But hey, I'll be getting one, feel free to not.

 

[CMDR Harada]

And again, why the rush? The gameplay improvement is the carriers abilities you gain balanced with keeping it going. If thats not to your taste don't get one, its not something thats essential is it, just because its new?

For me personally, it's not the speed of the carrier, it's the utility ( or lack thereof ) that is the issue. Upkeep plays into this, as well as useful modules in relation to an Explorer.

It makes no sense to drag an FC 20k LY's for exploration.

Universal Cartographics : Moot point, really. This would be the most sought after ability if it was offered. I could get the FC out to an unexplored section, use it as a base of operations, sell my data, and move on. This would be spectacular for a team of explorers. Imagine being able to map out a 200-300 LY mini-bubble before moving on ! Even just having the ability to store your data would be a huge draw.

Repair / Re-supply : Not a 'must have', more like a 'Nice to have'. I can repair myself, but then I tend to bring two AFMU's. I can also scoop fuel on my own and mine for MATs on my own ( for re-supply/synth ).

Jump range : The ONLY really unique thing the FC offers to explorers. This is really cool, and it does allow for 'never before explored areas'. I can see this. But would you be willing to 'blind jump' into an area and HOPE you can find the fuel to jump back, with a 5 BILLION credit asset ? Unless Fuel Rats are going to add FC's to their formidable bag of tricks. Taking two hours ( one for power up, one for cool down ) to jump 500 LYs is silly, when my Explora-Conda can do it in 10 minutes ( 10 - 50 LY jumps, which is a conservative estimate ). Not using neutron boosts, I could cover 6k LYs in the same time. Using the neutron hi-way, people have made it from Sol to Colonia in less time then an FC could do 500 LYs ! Add in the Tritium mining hassle, repairs, and upkeep... well.. never mind. It's like showing a blind man pictures of your last vacation.

In summation, for an Explorer, the FC is a 'one trick pony' with it's 500 LY jump range, and even that has very limited uses.

 

[ADAMtheWELSHMANz]

Take ship transfer times, atm it takes almost a billion credits and over 3 days to ship a fully outfitted Corvette/Cutter from the bubble to Colonia.

How balanced would it be if you could just load your fleet onboard and get there in the same time it takes to travel there via the neutron highway (1-2 hours).

Without a limiting factor such as cooldowns, which FDev have already said they are open to changing based on Beta, you'd have FC's bouncing around the galaxy. I guarantee some poor schmuck that parked onboard before heading off might well find himself at BP a few hours later and be none to happy about that!

 

[CMDR Harada]

Again, if an Anaconda is doing more than 1000ly an hour you're TRAVELLING not EXPLORING.

You make a valid point. But before you can explore, you have to travel at least some distance from the bubble. To explore a nebula 10k LYs from the bubble using an FC as a base would be a huge undertaking.

 

[Rubbernuke]

So, again, you aren't you able to just explain what gameplay benefit there is in making them so slow they are practically unfit for purpose?

I'll make it really simply for you. Here you go:-

If an Exploration FC took only TWICE as long to travel somewhere compared to an Anaconda that would break the game because _ _ _ _ _ ?​

​

Clearly, it needs to take TWENTY TIMES as long because this befits the game with _ _ _ _ _ ?​

I'll await your answer with interest...

ps: "or being more confident with mishaps." - What exactly have you gone through all the "work" for, to earn and invest 5bCR, if not to have a bit of a benefit of perhaps be a bit more "confidence with mishaps"?

You are bringing an invincible keychain of ships and abilities along. It needs downsides otherwise its just a faster, bigger Anaconda. Or do you just want a shiny box to keep things in?

And being out in the middle of nowhere it only takes one slip supercharging your FSD to mess up, or drop your SRV and lose it. Now you don't have to worry.

 

[CMDR Harada]

Take ship transfer times, atm it takes almost a billion credits and over 3 days to ship a fully outfitted Corvette/Cutter from the bubble to Colonia.

How balanced would it be if you could just load your fleet onboard and get there in the same time it takes to travel there via the neutron highway (1-2 hours).

Without a limiting factor such as cooldowns, which FDev have already said they are open to changing based on Beta, you'd have FC's bouncing around the galaxy. I guarantee some poor schmuck that parked onboard before heading off might well find himself at BP a few hours later and be none to happy about that!

I agree that FCs should not be able to spool up a 20k LY jump.. that would go against the FD mantra that space is huge. But being able to cover half the distance that a moderately outfitted ship can cover would be a good ball park. I'd propose cutting spool up / cool down times to 15 minutes ( 30 minutes per jump ). That would make it equivalent to a 35 LY jump range ship. Not excessive, IMO.

 

[Watcher]

Trading
Allow NPCs to buy from your FC. When you create a SELL, you can set the price of your commodity based on the price at a specific station, and define how much less you'll sell at compared to what the station is buying for (eg: 10%). Based on the percentage reduction, and the distance from your FC to the designated station, NPCs turn up to buy that commodity and carry it off to the designated station.

Only a small reduction in your sale price and/or a long distance to the designated station? NPCs rarely turn up. A large reduction in your sale price and/or a short distance to the designated station? NPS arrive more often.

If you're at your FC, you'll see NPCs turning up based on the above. If you're not, the server will chip away hourly/daily based on the above.

Exploration
Allow a (very large) FC module to produce Tritium using solar arrays. More efficient the nearer to a star, and how bright the star is etc. ie: Choosing which star to jump to now has some importance!

Allow a (large) FC module to scan nearby (unexplored) systems, and give basic (text?) information as to their content. ie: Is it worth going to them to explore?

Allow a (very large) FC module to cool down quicker and jump more often. ie: So an exploration FC, is actually worth exploring with!

Allow a (small) FC module to allow Cartographics to be sold.

Support ship bay.
Acts like a ship yard but for NPC operated ships from the carrier.
Various ship type, configuration, capacity options available.
Have the carrier run support ship operations - local scouting (limited), mining / refueling, security operations, cargo transfer?

To be fair I suspect the problem here is that trying to keep track of these ships in a reasonable way would be a right pain. You can do a full simulation about what they'd accomplish and deal with losses and so on but if you want to actual see activity around the carrier and have what happens to those ship reflected at the carrier that is going to be more of a pain.

 

[BDelacroix]

I've been recently accused of not being an explorer, which is silly, but I want to point out there are two methods of exploration in this game.

1) get there fast and take it slow. This is generally what I do. I find a spot I want to go look at, get there then spend a lot of time hanging out collecting information.

2) stop at every hobby shop, antique store and watering hole along the way.

The 2nd type will have little issue with the speed of the carrier if they chose to bring one.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think nearly everyone agrees with what you said here - it's just that these services add almost no value for exploration. And isn't another carrier role "Search and Rescue"? There's even less on offer that would make carriers attractive for that use.

Personally I think FD have stretched the 'universal mobile base' over too many areas and that when they have drop downs for activities its for the benefit of docked players to know what the intention is, rather than what it can do. Sort of hanging a sign outside a clubhouse, the house remains a shack but its intention is different- when Stephen changed the background to bounty hunting, that was it

There is only one true useful exploration service and thats UC- now, if you had that but kept the jump distance then I think that would be a fair compromise since you then have a giant mobile UC modem thats invulnerable.