Fleet Carriers - Trading and Exploration Improvements (NPCs buying commodities & specific exploration FC modules)

The best it can do (even ignoring mining to refuel) is 500ly per 2 hours... An Anaconda can do that in a dozen mins... That's ten times worse, and it will most likely be more than that!

While the FC's travel speeds are fine for the bubble (maybe), an exploration FC will make little sense for any exploration of regions a reasonable distance from the bubble. ie: Why take a month to get to a region to explore it with a Exploration FC, when you can get there on a couple of days in an Anaconda? Especially when you'll have to mine over, and over, and over, and over... and have the same issue returning?

What would be the problem with being able to upgrade your Exploration FC, at huge expense to your 25000 units (eg: meaning no, or limited shipyard etc), to allow it in effect to travel at say 50% of the speed of an Anaconda? What harm is being done making an Exploration FC, more appealing to use for exploration?

Do you even explore? Where have you explored?
 
Absolutely understood! Now, if your exploration is say 20,000ly away, do the maths on how long it will take you to get your FC there with what we know so far... As well as you having to constantly nursemaid it with mining efforts every couple of jumps...

Exactly. For exploration, FCs aren't an asset by any strecht, but just a big liability.
 
Exactly. For exploration, FCs aren't an asset by any strecht, but just a big liability.
Another consideration - Let's say a means of increasing the speed (cool down) of jumps is introduced. What will be the fun in allowing a jump followed by say a ten minute wait? What will an explorer enroute to a region gain out of a ten minute forced wait at a stepping stone? What will they do for ten mins?

Would it not make more sense for the proposed performance improving module to allow a greater heat build up so the FC can make say a dozen jumps swiftly (eg: each minute), before then the heat is so great after X jumps, a Y hour wait is necessary to cool down. That time would then allow the CMDR to mine or explore? ie: Do something sensible/interesting with their time?

ie: One long wait would be more enjoyable/tolerable than lots of ten minute ones?
 
Thus to get 25,000 LY to Colonia will take 100hrs minimum. Damn. That's crappy, An anaconda can jump once every 45 seconds.

And that is if you load it chock full of tritium to cover those 25ly (which would mean you can't put anything else in the carrier but Tritium making the carrier absolutely worthless). Else you'll be facing an extra >5 hour mining every 2 jumps.
Another consideration - Let's say a means of increasing the speed (cool down) of jumps is introduced. What will be the fun in allowing a jump followed by say a ten minute wait? What will an explorer enroute to a region gain out of a ten minute forced wait at a stepping stone? What will they do for ten mins?

Would it not make more sense for the proposed performance improving module to allow a greater heat build up so the FC can make say a dozen jumps swiftly (eg: each minute), before then the heat is so great after X jumps, a Y hour wait is necessary to cool down. That time would then allow the CMDR to mine or explore? ie: Do something sensible/interesting with their time?

ie: One long wait would be more enjoyable/tolerable than lots of ten minute ones?

Well the wait between jumps is actually the part I could live with if I went exploring, it gives time to explore the surroundings before continuing the jouney. I wouldn't mind the time to be reduced to one hour istead of 2 though. I agree that 10 minutes would just be an arbitraty restriction, what would someone do with those 10 minutes other than wait twiddling thumbs?

Anyway, the real killer for me is not the cooldown time, but the mining. There is just absolutely no way in hell I would subject to 5 hours of mining (plus the time to find suitable ring and a tritium hotspot) every time I wanted to go another 500ly. I know I can stockpile tritium before departing, but it won't last forever, and then the mining grind marathon would start. No thanks.

I can see many potential good uses for a Carrier, I'm even looking forward to try some ideas in the bubble, but using a carrier for exploration is most certainly not one of them (even if I enjoyed exploration in it's current form).
 
Sort of understood, but if we take the scenario of traveling to say a location 20,000ly away to explore the area around it? How long to get there?
An Anaconda? - Say about 6-7hrs or so?
An Exploration FC? - Say about 80-100hrs, along with the spoon feeding (mining) of Tritium 40+ times?

Who will want to spend 80+hrs getting an FC there, when if they used an Anaconda they could have got there most likely the day after they set off?

They may have taken "Squadron" out of the name, but I think the way FDev have designed them, Carriers will only really shine for players who are rich both in credits and in friends. While a loner can technically own one, they're more of an expensive toy that way. If you want to move a fully equipped Carrier any substantial distance, the only practical approach is to periodically round up a group of cooperating players to refuel it. Similarly, most of the features are of relatively marginal benefit to an individual, but as the (less notorious) adventures of the Gnosis show, sometimes all a group needs to have fun is a movable home base.

One feature I like about this is that it won't be a random loner who can play 24/7 for a month who gets the first Carrier to Beagle. It'll be one of the big exploration groups like Cannon or Fleetcom, because their admins trust each other enough to pass around a group account and jump at the maximum frequency, while they call on an army of volunteer rock rats to keep the tanks topped up.
 
Might a simpler solution all round be, a module for Exploration FCs that increases
They may have taken "Squadron" out of the name, but I think the way FDev have designed them, Carriers will only really shine for players who are rich both in credits and in friends. While a loner can technically own one, they're more of an expensive toy that way. If you want to move a fully equipped Carrier any substantial distance, the only practical approach is to periodically round up a group of cooperating players to refuel it. Similarly, most of the features are of relatively marginal benefit to an individual, but as the (less notorious) adventures of the Gnosis show, sometimes all a group needs to have fun is a movable home base.

One feature I like about this is that it won't be a random loner who can play 24/7 for a month who gets the first Carrier to Beagle. It'll be one of the big exploration groups like Cannon or Fleetcom, because their admins trust each other enough to pass around a group account and jump at the maximum frequency, while they call on an army of volunteer rock rats to keep the tanks topped up.
I think the problem will be most CMDRs will find the resultant gameplay just tedious/shallow/pointless? We're talking about experienced players, with billions of credits, who clearly are probably in the stages of the game where they want to play for fun, depth or challenge, not tedious shallow game loops. Much of what FCs seem to offer are loading/unloading gameloops, or long drawn our travel times (for exploration) with little/no gameplay even for explorers.

So we risk having a significant development effort to create gameplay for a small minority of the player base, whom many of which will not be interested in it?

IMHO...
 
Why would NPCs buy? They are just spawn scripts. The ED economy isn't very dynamic. Asking for NPCs is just asking for auto-cash generator in-game.
Because CMDRs most likely will not? And because the result will be a smoother less grindy outcome?

Consider, a CMDR working at a hot spot, and dumping his commodities at their nearby FC. What will be a nicer outcome for them?
1) For them to be able to set up their FC in effect as trading post, with (NPC) ships coming along periodically and slowly emptying the FC, for a reasonable income?
2) Having to fly the FC back to a station, and doing 20-40 super cruise runs between the station and FC, over and over and over, to unload the FC? Does that sound like something a CMDRs able to purchase a FC would enjoy? Is that engaging?

OR do (2), and while the CMDR goes off and does something else, sets the SELL price to something sensible, and again let NPCs slow and surely empty their FC for them and a reasonable income while he does something else in the game more enjoyable that 20-40 SC shuttle runs?

AND, let us remember, none of the above mechanics will be higher income than not using an FC, and indeed will infact most likely be less than just using a mining ship as per currently by just immediately selling what you've mined.

Ultimately, why make the lower income an FC will most likely mean for mining, also force more shallow and grindtastic gameplay?
 
Because CMDRs most likely will not? And because the result will be a smoother less grindy outcome?

Consider, a CMDR working at a hot spot, and dumping his commodities at their nearby FC. What will be a nicer outcome for them?
1) For them to be able to set up their FC in effect as trading post, with (NPC) ships coming along periodically and slowly emptying the FC, for a reasonable income?
2) Having to fly the FC back to a station, and doing 20-40 super cruise runs between the station and FC, over and over and over, to unload the FC? Does that sound like something a CMDRs able to purchase a FC would enjoy? Is that engaging?

OR do (2), and while the CMDR goes off and does something else, sets the SELL price to something sensible, and again let NPCs slow and surely empty their FC for them and a reasonable income while he does something else in the game more enjoyable that 20-40 SC shuttle runs?

AND, let us remember, none of the above mechanics will be higher income than not using an FC, and indeed will infact most likely be less than just using a mining ship as per currently by just immediately selling what you've mined.

Ultimately, why make the lower income an FC will most likely mean for mining, by making it ever more shallow and grindtastic?
Yea, well, that's a design error. There is no way players will pay the upkeep for all the carriers that will be fielded in all the remote places. And the ones that spawn in high-traffic areas will spawn along with numerous competition. That is fine, I hear already sang as song - I have no real opinion - it's basically telling players that is fine we got stuff to offset cost when you already know that it won't work out like that.
FCs are in the spirit of the title - an elitist feature. By design and philosophy. It's designed for MP and sold as SP "personal carriers". It's marketing yollocks again - FCs are kinda useless for Solo players. Just branding them "personal" carriers to appease the solo crowd and keep the facade it's content for all.
 
Yea, well, that's a design error. There is no way players will pay the upkeep for all the carriers that will be fielded in all the remote places. And the ones that spawn in high-traffic areas will spawn along with numerous competition. That is fine, I hear already sang as song - I have no real opinion - it's basically telling players that is fine we got stuff to offset cost when you already know that it won't work out like that.
FCs are in the spirit of the title - an elitist feature. By design and philosophy. It's designed for MP and sold as SP "personal carriers". It's marketing yollocks again - FCs are kinda useless for Solo players. Just branding them "personal" carriers to appease the solo crowd and keep the facade it's content for all.
Apologies, you've lost me with the point there? Wasn't your point questioning the proposal in the OP to have NPCs turning up to your FC to buy what you've set up to sell?

First, I'd suggest in most cases, for most CMDRs, I doubt CMDRs will bother with buying from FCs, and certainly not in the quantities/frequncy to prove of any use to most FC owners...

So, my point is, most likely FCs as regards for example storing what you've mined, will be little more, and most likely less profitable that simply selling what what you've mined immediately a few jumps away. So assuming FCs are primarily about enjoying the game more, why not allow NPCs to empty your FC while the player does something more engaging, as I assume 20-40 super cruise runs between a station and their FC wouldn't appeal to most CMDRs?

Again, this is not about making the owner more CRs, simply making their time in the game more interesting!

Heck! It might actually create more immergent gameplay. Selling valuable commodities from your FC? Might other CMDRs not be interested in pirating those (NPCs) on their X hops back to a station?
 
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Apologies, you've lost me with the point there? Wasn't your point questioning the proposal in the OP to have NPCs turning up to your FC to buy what you've set up to sell?

First, I'd suggest in most cases, for most CMDRs, I doubt CMDRs will bother with buying from FCs, and certainly not in the quantities/frequncy to prove of any use to most FC owners...

So, my point is, most likely FCs as regards for example storing what you've mined, will be little more, and most likely less profitable that simply selling what what you've mined immediately a few jumps away. So assuming FCs are primarily about enjoying the game more, why not allow NPCs to empty your FC while the player does something more engaging, as I assume 20-40 super cruise runs between a station and their FC wouldn't appeal to most CMDRs?

Again, this is not about making the owner more CRs, simply making their time in the game more interesting!
Ye - it's asking to have special scripts for FC owners so NPC generate that bring you some cash. It's officialised trade bots for FC owners. I don't think this is a good way to do it. You see the economy thing is already kinda unbelievable. Having NPCs conveniently spawn to press credits into your hand isn't helping that.
I'm normally not so out on "immuhsion" - I can suspend my disbelief and hold my breath at the same time, but the eco sim doesn't cut it and auto-traders don't gonna help. I'd rather see flat cost reduction for certain choice of equipment rather than fiat ex nihilo cash generation by cheesing NPC spawn scripts.
 
Ye - it's asking to have special scripts for FC owners so NPC generate that bring you some cash. It's officialised trade bots for FC owners. I don't think this is a good way to do it. You see the economy thing is already kinda unbelievable. Having NPCs conveniently spawn to press credits into your hand isn't helping that.
I'm normally not so out on "immuhsion" - I can suspend my disbelief and hold my breath at the same time, but the eco sim doesn't cut it and auto-traders don't gonna help. I'd rather see flat cost reduction for certain choice of equipment rather than fiat ex nihilo cash generation by cheesing NPC spawn scripts.
Ah, so your issue is not with the resultant gameplay, but the workings of the mechanic itself?

OK, let's do a hand wavium example?
1) So when you set up to sell your commodity X you get an option to specifically sell it on the Galactic Market or the like.
2) When you do this, via the galactic map you have to choose a station BUYING your commodity.
3) You set a percentage for how much less you'll charge to SELL that commodity for at your FC.
4) The game chips away at your stock of X at a rate based on the distance of the specified station, and the percentage decrease you've specified.
5) Any one in the instance of your FC, stands to see an NPC turn up (based on the odd calculated in [4]), who will have a flight path to the station specified in [2].

Sell at only a small decrease in price and/or from a long distance? Few if any NPCs will turn up! Sell at a big decrease and/or a close distance? Many NPCs will turn up.

Done...

And that means a new mechanic by which FC owners can get their FC emptied in an interesting way! Far more interesting than yet another shallow grind loop that risks them not even using the FC because of the tedium!
 
Ah, so your issue is not with the resultant gameplay, but the workings of the mechanic itself?

OK, let's do a hand wavium example?
1) So when you set up to sell your commodity X you get an option to specifically sell it on the Galactic Market or the like.
2) When you do this, via the galactic map you have to choose a station BUYING your commodity.
3) You set a percentage for how much less you'll charge to SELL that commodity for at your FC.
4) The game chips away at your stock of X at a rate based on the distance of the specified station, and the percentage decrease you've specified.
5) Any one in the instance of your FC, stands to see an NPC turn up (based on the odd calculated in [4]), who will have a flight path to the station specified in [2].

Sell at only a small decrease in price and/or from a long distance? Few if any NPCs will turn up! Sell at a big decrease and/or a close distance? Many NPCs will turn up.

Done...

And that means a new mechanic by which FC owners can get their FC emptied in an interesting way! Far more interesting than yet another shallow grind loop!
I don't really see the point of a mobile railway station, but that's just me. Who thinks of such stuff? Why fly a spaceship anymore in a spaceship game when you can fly a market around? Do you want to bring the market to the consumers? It was always the other way round in ED. This is pretty silly game design, imo.
 
I don't really see the point of a mobile railway station, but that's just me. Who thinks of such stuff? Why fly a spaceship anymore in a spaceship game when you can fly a market around? Do you want to bring the market to the consumers? It was always the other way round in ED. This is pretty silly game design, imo.
Understood... But being able to set up your own trading post (for CMDRs and more importantly NPCs) to buy from, seems OK to me. Especially if it means a player can adjust their gameplay more to there liking, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, not be force to do mind numbing game loops that FCs seemingly at the moment will force upon players who are desperately trying to find MORE ENGAGING gameplay, that rather being forced into yet more MINDLESS tedious gameplay :)

I like the notion of mining and dropping off my commodities to my FC, and then a fair mechanic sees NPCs slowly whittling away at it. And from an immersion point of view, turning up at my FC and seeing an NPC or two using it would be nice too IMHO.


Ultimately I see FCs as yet another huge development expense for highly questions outcomes... But it is what it is, so surely it would be nice to make it as appealing as possible. IMHO I suspect many CMDRs will soon find them tedious and pointless for little more than a long range locker.
 
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