General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Stealthie]

There's no vaccine in sight and the virus probably isn't going to magically go away. Out of curiosity, how long do you (or anyone else for that matter) think they can hide from it by quarantining? There are some such as Morbad who suggest that if we "just wait longer" things will be "better" but that seems pretty foolish and naive to me; this isn't going to get "better" for months, if not years.

This is where a bit of social responsibility is required, though.

The purpose of the quarantine is to allow the virus to "burn out".
If there's no new hosts then it can't carry on spreading.

Even if you've had the virus, you can still physically carry it and pass it on to other people, which allows the epidemic to continue.

I assume the biggest concern is, currently, that our medical facilities might be overloaded as large amounts of people become ill at the same time.
Once the spread of the virus is controlled, it'll be possible to end the quarantine and be assured that there'll be enough medical resources available to deal with cases that continue to occur.
And, of course, with the current level of public awareness, it's much less likely that somebody who develops a cough and a fever is going to ignore it and spread the virus around which, again, means it'll minimise the spread of the virus.

In practical terms, I wouldn't mind betting that the next "phase" of dealing with this virus will be a relaxation of the quarantine but with a ban on large gatherings and advice to avoid busy areas as much as possible.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

So hypothetically speaking - it would be a good idea for someone with AF to avoid this treatment?

Asking for a friend.

The main danger is ventricular, not atrial.
But the anticoagulants have interactions with HOCQ IIRC, so I wouldn't want to try it without an ICU. Just having high fever can mess up the electrical rhythm.
Best bet, as always is to rely on the judgement of the doctor who knows the case well.

On a non epidemic note, we are making hot cross buns.
( What do you get if you pour the teapot into a rabbit hole? Hot cross bunnies!)

I got to go make some rounds back at work tomorrow, as we have a nice little old lady inpatient, and they always seem to give me holiday weekend coverage. Be good to go to work and contribute a little.

 

[Synkreto]

The numbers discussion in here is moot really . We have been over the "Influenza did NOT kill 60k people in the USA last season" thing, at least twice . These 60k deaths are deaths attributed to the influenza ! Influenza by itself does not kill very many people .

It is nonsense to

a) say/have said "influenza is worse" , but when number of death to the Pandemic is switching towards a more general way, like "deaths attributed to SARS -CoV -2", or even "deaths attributed to pandemic spread", say "its a conspiracy ! "
b) still ignore the fact that all this is happening despite billions of people living under some kind of movement restrictions .


We have been over the problems in really getting the number of dead "correct" also, numerous times .

In New York, people with cardiac arrest outside of hospitals are not taken into ICU for CPR, so the System does not get even more overlaoded . Do you count these as Pandemic deaths ? Would those people have a better Chance to survive ( be revived ) if there was no frigging Panadmic on ? Also, People dieing at home are not counted .

Other Nations do NOT include people dieing to CoViD/SARS - CoV -2 in care or nursing homes into their statistics .

EtcEtc .


But, all this does not change the following : This Pandemic is bad . Really BAD ! I can not in my Life fathom how anyone can seriously think "it is a conspiracy" . NO MATTER how you look at the numbers, this Beast is pandemically frolicking around the Globe and killing a whole lot of people, one way or the other .

And while you guys have this numbers discussion, some seem to conveniently forget that all those deaths are happening despite billions of people living under some kind of movement restrictions for weeks now . And that it would be worse, MUCH worse, if THAT was NOT so .


It IS absolutely necessary to have a keen eye on what is being done, nation by nation . There are distinct differences . Some Countries legally time limit any kind of measures the moment they are decided . Others do away with very important regulations in terms of medicine, vaccine development etc., without any mention of whether they plan to bring those back once this is over . It IS important to pay attention to these things .

But really, still not being able to acknowledge the real proportions of this, and chalking it all up to "media conspiracy"...I am at a loss of words . Not even mentioning that this viewpoint seems to be very Nationcentric, totally leaving out what happens in India . Will probably happen in Africa . And other regions .

ps.: and really, that happy mixup of terminology really grinds my gears . NOONE who has to observe social distancing measures at this time is under "quarantine" . And nope, most nations are NOT locked down . I think some areas in Italy, maybe spain are under quarantine and lockdown . But the vast majority of us...are NOT .
Quarantine, Lockdown, is what happened in WuHan, citywide . But in most "First world" countries, noone would ever dream about introducing those measures at that scale .

And, in other news :

COVID-19 Mythbusters – World Health Organization

Highlighting some of the misinformation circulating on COVID-19

www.who.int

 

[Morbad]

I assume the biggest concern is, currently, that our medical facilities might be overloaded as large amounts of people become ill at the same time.
Once the spread of the virus is controlled, it'll be possible to end the quarantine and be assured that there'll be enough medical resources available to deal with cases that continue to occur.

Medical facilities are already overloaded in the worst hit areas and things would be much worse in a business as usual scenario.

Without a vaccine, the overwhelming majority are going to be infected sooner or later. Not being exposed over the long run will be wholly impractical for most people until that herd immunity threshold is achieved and the virus can no longer effectively spread. However, making sure that everyone doesn't get infected in too short a time window is how lives are saved and other impacts minimized. The only effective way to do this is via fairly strict social distancing. This is the whole "flatten the curve" strategy that has been pushed, and is proving successful.

In the US, most states look like they will peak some time this month, then they can gradually ease back toward normal patterns, while staying vigilant against resurgences and being willing to quickly renew restrictions if they occur. Just going back to normal after the first wave, when most people still haven't been exposed, will risk overwhelming systems again.

 

[Han_Zen]

Am I the only person who's noticed that according to Worldometer the covid mortality rates are almost nonexistent once you leave the parameters of western civ? There are some exceptions of course, but far and away this seems to be first world problem. I'd be genuinely curious what all of you forum neuro scientists and various experts of sciency things made of that.

Covid-19 is mainly a first world problem, for now. I suspect it may stay that way, but I could be wrong.
It is also to a large degree, a big city problem. This is where the simple things like washing hands and keeping safe distance, doesn’t work well enough.

Both overreporting and underreporting happens all the time. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just the result of new rutines and a chaotic situation. There is no big agenda, but a thousand little agendas. Most have no agenda at all. They just try to do their best.

In Norway we don’t do the essential worker thing. Only those defined spesifically by the goverment, are banned from working. Most of the unemployment is from indirect causes. Shops and restaurants have to close, because people don’t want to use them.

 

[Synkreto]

Covid-19 is mainly a first world problem, for now. I suspect it may stay that way, but I could be wrong.
It is also to a large degree, a big city problem. This is where the simple things like washing hands and keeping safe distance, doesn’t work well enough.

Both overreporting and underreporting happens all the time. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just the result of new rutines and a chaotic situation. There is no big agenda, but a thousand little agendas. Most have no agenda at all. They just try to do their best.

In Norway we don’t do the essential worker thing. Only those defined spesifically by the goverment, are banned from working. Most of the unemployment is from indirect causes. Shops and restaurants have to close, because people don’t want to use them.

The fact that we do not have a clear picture of what is going on in Africa, South America, and other regions, does not make this Pandemic a First World Problem .

 

[Morbad]

Covid-19 is mainly a first world problem, for now. I suspect it may stay that way, but I could be wrong.

Nah.

There are 10k+ confirmed cases in Africa, and who the hell knows how many actual ones. India and poorer areas of SE Asia are also starting to see major spikes as well.

While many developing nations got a late start because of relatively lower international travel, the reason for the relative lack of news isn't a lack of anything happening, it's the same old story as always: no one in the first world really cares. It's also less likely to stand out in areas with double or triple the gross mortality rates of developed nations and much younger demographics.

Edit: I would also be remiss in not mentioning the limited ability of media in more authoritarian nations to report on what's happening.

Anyway a few sources...

COVID-19 cases top 10 000 in Africa

The number of confirmed COVID-19 cases in Africa has risen to more than 10 000 and caused more than 500 deaths. While the virus was slow to reach the continent compared to other parts of the world, infection has grown exponentially in recent weeks and continues to spread.

www.afro.who.int

Indonesia: Little Transparency in COVID-19 Outbreak

Indonesia’s government is failing to provide transparency and access to information to battle the COVID-19 outbreak, Human Rights Watch said today. The authorities have been charging people under abusive criminal defamation laws for their online comments about the coronavirus and the...

www.hrw.org

Coronavirus: Why has Turkmenistan reported no cases?

While many countries have imposed major restrictions, life continues as normal in Turkmenistan.

www.bbc.com

Thailand blames its Covid-19 crisis on Caucasians - Asia Times

BANGKOK – As the global epicenter of the Covid-19 outbreak shifts from China to Europe, so too are racist attitudes towards foreigners in the virus-hit

asiatimes.com

Insecure Pakistani govt focused on polishing image - Asia Times

The economic impacts of Covid-19 are becoming visible in Pakistan. The weeks of lockdown have affected daily wagers and the lower-middle-class segments of

asiatimes.com

 

[Ian Skippy]

In practical terms, I wouldn't mind betting that the next "phase" of dealing with this virus will be a relaxation of the quarantine but with a ban on large gatherings and advice to avoid busy areas as much as possible.

This. We're being prepared for a prolonged situation like that: slowly start things, but no large gatherings, keep a bit of distance where possible, stay home when you have certain symptoms et cetera. To do this you need to first bring hospital demand down, rate of reproduction down and get testing capacity to the point contact tracing and such can be done properly.

It is expected we'll start seeing some measures lifted in May, which will then continue to be eased during the summer. There might be brief moments where tighter measures are enforced, and in the meanwhile testing for antibodies/immunity will become commonplace.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

I wonder if this virus will evolve or devolve us

“30 percent of all protein adaptations since humans' divergence with chimpanzees have been driven by viruses.”

Viruses revealed to be a major driver of human evolution

The constant battle between pathogens and their hosts has long been recognized as a key driver of evolution, but until now scientists have not had the tools to look at these patterns globally across species and genomes. In a new study, researchers apply big-data analysis to reveal the full...

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

<- donkey ( let's call it a donkey for the sake of the argument)
<- elbow
There is no point discussing reality with people that cannot tell the difference.

<- germs in a Petri dish
<- radio wave transmitter

Need we continue?
No. It is too absurd to entertain the discussion.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Covid-19 is disproportionately taking black lives

Hundreds of years of racism has delivered poor health and economic outcomes for black people, making them more vulnerable in the pandemic.

www.vox.com

Detroit it taking it pretty hard, with a disproportionate volume of casualties among the black population.
One simple reason for increased infection is the use of public transport being higher by the poorest people. But there might be a biochemical reason too.

I really don't like the politicking of this article. Again, it shows how up their own backside some news outlets are and trying to maintain business as usual and spouting the same rhetoric.

If you're poor and living in densely packed areas, youre strongly at risk from this virus. It doesnt care about the colour of your skin or your creed, and pretending otherwise is dangerous in times like this.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

I really don't like the politicking of this article. Again, it shows how up their own backside some news outlets are and trying to maintain business as usual and spouting the same rhetoric.

If you're poor and living in densely packed areas, youre strongly at risk from this virus. It doesnt care about the colour of your skin or your creed, and pretending otherwise is dangerous in times like this.

It is reality, believe it, don't, like it, don't.
Same reality.

The political issue is not with the article.

 

[Morbad]

If you're poor and living in densely packed areas, youre strongly at risk from this virus. It doesnt care about the colour of your skin or your creed, and pretending otherwise is dangerous in times like this.

The article isn't implying the virus cares about about skin color or creed, but that, conciously or not people still do, that systemic racism is still a thing, and that it has consequences to public health.

 

[Synkreto]

I wonder if this virus will evolve or devolve us

“30 percent of all protein adaptations since humans' divergence with chimpanzees have been driven by viruses.”

Viruses revealed to be a major driver of human evolution

The constant battle between pathogens and their hosts has long been recognized as a key driver of evolution, but until now scientists have not had the tools to look at these patterns globally across species and genomes. In a new study, researchers apply big-data analysis to reveal the full...

www.sciencedaily.com

Excellent, I was looking for a resource on this . Just came back to mind 2 days ago that I had heard something about this years ago....and immediately came to the same question you post .

Besides everything else, this Pandemic is a test of resilience and adaptability . Would not be amazed if it turns out to actually be beneficial for humanity in the long run .

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

The powers that be don't care about black people and they care about the African continent even less.

Its not as clear cut as this.

They do, but its hard to balance home commitments (ie sending aid to the Caribbean former colonies when everythings not great at home), international relations (eg. France gets really uppity when you try to help in their former regions) and getting local government to accept it, when theyve been elected on a 'white man bad' rhetoric, because theyre concerned with saving their political image, and you cant be seen taking aid from 'the enemy'. Even worse is when you get them to.accept aid and they either use it to only held their demographic or straight up sell it on for personal gain.

Finally, 'edgy' anti western capitalist media trying to capture a more 'woke' market share tends to ignore any efforts actually done. Whilst RFA Argus was dealing with the Ebola crisis in Sierra Leone, the Guardian completely ignored UK effort and instead was focusing on writing articles explaining why this was further colonial shame.

Tl/dr: IMO we try to help, but factors limit what we can do.

 

[Han_Zen]

Nah.

There are 10k+ confirmed cases in Africa, and who the hell knows how many actual ones. India and poorer areas of SE Asia are also starting to see major spikes as well.

While many developing nations got a late start because of relatively lower international travel, the reason for the relative lack of news isn't a lack of anything happening, it's the same old story as always: no one in the first world really cares. It's also less likely to stand out in areas with double or triple the gross mortality rates of developed nations and much younger demographics.

Edit: I would also be remiss in not mentioning the limited ability of media in more authoritarian nations to report on what's happening.

Anyway a few sources...

COVID-19 cases top 10 000 in Africa

The number of confirmed COVID-19 cases in Africa has risen to more than 10 000 and caused more than 500 deaths. While the virus was slow to reach the continent compared to other parts of the world, infection has grown exponentially in recent weeks and continues to spread.

www.afro.who.int

Indonesia: Little Transparency in COVID-19 Outbreak

Indonesia’s government is failing to provide transparency and access to information to battle the COVID-19 outbreak, Human Rights Watch said today. The authorities have been charging people under abusive criminal defamation laws for their online comments about the coronavirus and the...

www.hrw.org

Coronavirus: Why has Turkmenistan reported no cases?

While many countries have imposed major restrictions, life continues as normal in Turkmenistan.

www.bbc.com

Thailand blames its Covid-19 crisis on Caucasians - Asia Times

BANGKOK – As the global epicenter of the Covid-19 outbreak shifts from China to Europe, so too are racist attitudes towards foreigners in the virus-hit

asiatimes.com

Insecure Pakistani govt focused on polishing image - Asia Times

The economic impacts of Covid-19 are becoming visible in Pakistan. The weeks of lockdown have affected daily wagers and the lower-middle-class segments of

asiatimes.com

Third world countries will of course also get Covid-19. The question is if it will do a statistically significant impact on death rates, in places where median age is below 20 and there are a million other things that kill those in risk groups?

 

[Morbad]

Its not as clear cut as this.

They do, but its hard to balance home commitments (ie sending aid to the Caribbean former colonies when everythings not great at home), international relations (eg. France gets really uppity when you try to help in their former regions) and getting local government to accept it, when theyve been elected on a 'white man bad' rhetoric, because theyre concerned with saving their political image, and you cant be seen taking aid from 'the enemy'. Even worse is when you get them to.accept aid and they either use it to only held their demographic or straight up sell it on for personal gain

Finally, 'edgy' anti western capitalist media trying to capture a more 'woke' market share tends to ignore any efforts actually done. Whilst RFA Argus was dealing with the Ebola crisis in Sierra Leone, the Guardian completely ignored UK effort and instead was focusing on writing articles explaining why this was further colonial shame.

Oh, I definitely acknowledge there are complications to aiding Africa, but I definitely feel there is fundamentally less concern as well. Africa remains out of sight and out of mind for much of the first-world. There is less incentive to advocate for help, precisely because one's constituencies are unlikely to know or be particularly concerned with what's going on over there. Only when a clear argument can be made for enlightened self-interest (as was the case for various Ebola outbreaks and containment efforts) does much seem to get done...not that I can blame people for this attitude, it's just a bit inconsistent as altruism seems to be an easier sell elsewhere.

Some of the perception of apathy may be undeserved, but the world in general, and Europe in particular, has taken far more from Africa than they've given back and definitely appear to pay it's problems less attention.

Third world countries will of course also get Covid-19. The question is if it will do a statistically significant impact on death rates, in places where median age is below 20 and there are a million other things that kill those in risk groups?

I'm sure it will be statistically significant while still being a far lesser concern than many day-to-day challenges already present for a lot of people.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Considering plenty of people would gladly sacrifice the elderly in their street if it means they could go back to watching baseball a few weeks earlier, I don't think we need to have many illusions about how much people care about what happens on a continent the average citizen can't locate more than a handful of countries on, if that.

In any case, the issue that is being raised is about black people in the United States. And when Fauci says these communities are hit disproportionally hard, and that this is a concern, I wouldn't dismiss that as a 'woke left-biased media thing'. That is a scientists, informing you of an issue that needs to be adressed. Ideally 200 years ago, but now would be better than tomorrow.

 

[Synkreto]

Third world countries will of course also get Covid-19. The question is if it will do a statistically significant impact on death rates, in places where median age is below 20 and there are a million other things that kill those in risk groups?

Shy question : Why is the question whether it will do a statistically significant impact on death rates ? I really do not understand . To me, this reads like "ah well, thats a statistically insignificant # of death, they do not really matter ." And just to be clear : I really want to understand you .

 

[Han_Zen]

Shy question : Why is the question whether it will do a statistically significant impact on death rates ? I really do not understand . To me, this reads like "ah well, thats a statistically insignificant # of death, they do not really matter ." And just to be clear : I really want to understand you .

It’s important for the economy of the poorest countries.
If Covid-19 impact is low, they can continue more or less as usual. If impact is severe what little they have going on, may collapse.

I’m still hopefully that the impact will be low or moderate and that for once, we in the first world will carry the heaviest burden.