Tired of the Open vs. Private Debacle

[Rubbernuke]

I think it mixes fine. I've regularly suggested ways to integrate PvP into the BGS and PP. The ideas are rejected simply because it doesn't force people into open nor PvP. I have every sympathy, but it wears thin with all the misrepresentations and tantrums taken by the open Only Crowd. The game and the players owe nothing to PvP. If you're into it, you know where to find it. As far as I'm concerned, problem solved.

Which does not work in Powerplay- you can't have balance because people work as efficiently as possible within the tools they are given- in short they grind in solo because Open has too many variables that reduce this efficiency. You can't have gentlemans agreements because thats just woolly in a competitive feature.

The game and the players owe nothing to PvP. If you're into it, you know where to find it. As far as I'm concerned, problem solved.

So if one football team is pro tackling, but another is not and plays on a different pitch, what tactic and team is going to win? You need limitations otherwise the only way to play is to do the most basic move possible (grind) rather than use teamwork to overcome obstacles and create emergent real time situations with other groups.

If FD rewrite Powerplay to take all this into account then fantastic- but so far FD seem to want to use the current framework. The most logical is to split Open and Solo PG, so each has a role and a represented gamestyle. Players don't have time to do both, so they specialize. Splitting it this way also eliminates the stigma of modes- everyone has a role that fits that mode rather than trying to work out 'whats fair'.

 

[Mohrgan]

Such shining reasonability, so encouraging of well intentioned discussion. My God they need to promote you to CM, you beacon of positivity

Right back at ya, pilgrim.

Be a part of this conversation for as long as I have been, and make as many suggestions as I have, and you'll soon see the impasse.

 

[Mohrgan]

Which does not work in Powerplay- you can't have balance because people work as efficiently as possible within the tools they are given- in short they grind in solo because Open has too many variables that reduce this efficiency. You can't have gentlemans agreements because thats just woolly in a competitive feature.



So if one football team is pro tackling, but another is not and plays on a different pitch, what tactic and team is going to win? You need limitations otherwise the only way to play is to do the most basic move possible (grind) rather than use teamwork to overcome obstacles and create emergent real time situations with other groups.

If FD rewrite Powerplay to take all this into account then fantastic- but so far FD seem to want to use the current framework. The most logical is to split Open and Solo PG, so each has a role and a represented gamestyle. Players don't have time to do both, so they specialize. Splitting it this way also eliminates the stigma of modes- everyone has a role that fits that mode rather than trying to work out 'whats fair'.

None of that is objectively true. It's the point of view you take in your effort to increase the reach of PvP. Well, the entire design of the game is set to negate the differences between the modes. All you have to do is fill buckets. From any mode. Again, if you see an advantage to being in one mode or another, take that advantage. You have all the access every other player has. Use it. That is where the balance lies.

If you want to play tackle rock on. You just can't make anyone else play on your terms. Viva la difference!

 

[Cheese Helmet]

Right back at ya, pilgrim.

Be a part of this conversation for as long as I have been, and make as many suggestions as I have, and you'll soon see the impasse.

Considering I've been in and out of the conversation since the game was introduced as game preview early access on Xbox, I've seen it.

 

[Mohrgan]

Considering I've been in and out of the conversation since the game was introduced as game preview early access on Xbox, I've seen it.

Yawn, XBox players...

 

[Rubbernuke]

None of that is objectively true. It's the point of view you take in your effort to increase the reach of PvP. Well, the entire design of the game is set to negate the differences between the modes. All you have to do is fill buckets. From any mode. Again, if you see an advantage to being in one mode or another, take that advantage. You have all the access every other player has. Use it. That is where the balance lies.

There is no advantage in Open- at all. PG is best for winging up for merits with no opposition, solo is best for hauling. There is no teamplay in Powerplay beyond saying "grind here". Surprise, no one plays it seriously other than to get modules. Its the football equivalent of a team being asked, to win the cup do you want to play Real Madrid or a team made out of cardboard cutouts? If you want to win, what will you choose?

If you want to play tackle rock on. You just can't make anyone else play on your terms. Viva la difference!

Which is illogical, falling back onto gentlemans agreements again. In the end you can't have a football league where players have their own rules, teams swap to empty pitches to score goals, and expect anyone to have fun out of it- because they only way to play that game is to be on your own pitch kicking into an empty goal to keep up. You can't ask your enemy to PvP because they'll go 'why?'. At some point you need to impose structure.

 

[Robert Maynard]

In the end you can't have a football league where players have their own rules, teams swap to empty pitches to score goals, and expect anyone to have fun out of it- because they only way to play that game is to be on your own pitch kicking into an empty goal to keep up.

That assumes that Powerplay is directly comparable to football. It might be better compared to track and field, i.e. no contact between participants in intense competition, with a side of wrestling for those interested.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That assumes that Powerplay is directly comparable to football. It might be better compared to track and field, i.e. no contact between participants in intense competition, with a side of wrestling for those interested.

That sounds more like the BGS with its variety really.

There is too much of Powerplay that suits Open to discount.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

Yawn, XBox players...

I saw the full circle of power play. Excitement and interest, formation of communities around the powers, slow realization of how 5C
along with solo/pg impacts the feature, and the gradual attrition of powerplayers, who understood the possibility for the emergent gameplay from the conflict, as they burn out form grind and boredom that was the only path forward thanks to it's implementation across modes.

If it's so terribly boring and you're so indifferent, then the only reason you'd oppose the suggestions out forward around it is spite and salitness from some previous negative experience you had.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

I remember Planetside where 5C was already a thing 20 years ago, how game designmoved on with tricks to prevent that, and how there was no realization at all to see it was a thing here with the powerplay placeholder feature.

And guess what, forcing everyone in the same public lobby is just contributing to fifth columning in MMOs. I'm constantly amazed at how some people can write megathreads about brilliant ideas that'll make their game even more mediocre.

 

[Rat Catcher]

What value does movement of merits in solo pg provide to pp, a direct competitive feature, with designs around bottlenecking players into the same systems and live updates around activity?


The idea is designed to relegate bits of the game, a specific aspect of pp in this case, to open. Why? Because the design of the feature would be better served if it were entirely in open because it's a directly competitive mode, but as a compromise, you're seeing the suggestion to apply single aspect.

We all get it. You think open should not provide additional advantage under any circumstance. And any change to that, you oppose. Cool, your position is noted. The change is still necessary to make the feature of pp actually more than just a convoluted module store. Repeating the sentence I've seen you type at least 50 times is working from the premise that everything in the game is working to its best potential, which is demonstrably false.

Yawn....

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That powerplay proposal was a giant step in the right direction, too bad it went down the drain.

Must have figured it wouldn't work

 

[Mohrgan]

I saw the full circle of power play. Excitement and interest, formation of communities around the powers, slow realization of how 5C
along with solo/pg impacts the feature, and the gradual attrition of powerplayers, who understood the possibility for the emergent gameplay from the conflict, as they burn out form grind and boredom that was the only path forward thanks to it's implementation across modes.

If it's so terribly boring and you're so indifferent, then the only reason you'd oppose the suggestions out forward around it is spite and salitness from some previous negative experience you had.

I oppose the the suggestion because they would break some of my more favored aspect of E|D's design. I oppose the suggestions because they won't improve the game. I encourage suggestions that are inclusive and respect the modes. I see no reason to coddle unsupported notions, and ill formed assumptions. Come up with a decent proposal, and I'd likely back it. But you haven't, so I won't.

If you feel better calling me salty I'm cool with that. You have no idea about my E|D history, like that I flew with a prominent group of PvPers for about a year, while still defending the modes and players choice. Insult me, try and dismiss me whatever you like. It still won't make your ideas any good.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Cries about the humanity of open/solo.
Calls people salty.
Has no introspective.

 

[Mohrgan]

There is no advantage in Open- at all. PG is best for winging up for merits with no opposition, solo is best for hauling. There is no teamplay in Powerplay beyond saying "grind here". Surprise, no one plays it seriously other than to get modules. Its the football equivalent of a team being asked, to win the cup do you want to play Real Madrid or a team made out of cardboard cutouts? If you want to win, what will you choose?



Which is illogical, falling back onto gentlemans agreements again. In the end you can't have a football league where players have their own rules, teams swap to empty pitches to score goals, and expect anyone to have fun out of it- because they only way to play that game is to be on your own pitch kicking into an empty goal to keep up. You can't ask your enemy to PvP because they'll go 'why?'. At some point you need to impose structure.

No advantage in open? Need an advantage? Use another mode then. I guess that's all sorted.

Surprize! This isn't football. It's a video game. A video game with a design that allows all players equal access to all of it's features. Use them how you like, and more importantly let everyone else do the same.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No advantage in open? Need an advantage? Use another mode then. I guess that's all sorted.

And then everything is reduced to two unending tasks that never vary in any way. The BGS is well suited to time stretched pan modal conflicts because you have the entire game to achieve your goals with. You can do what you like, because it all counts. Powerplay? Only hauling two cargoes or shooting matters. Over and over, with no opposition from NPCs once you finish your farming. PvP interference opens up tactical play, but having modes shuts that avenue down- while players can be inventive, NPCs simply can't match that.

Surprize! This isn't football. It's a video game. A video game with a design that allows all players equal access to all of it's feature. Use them how you like, and more importantly let everyone else do the same.

The modes are not equal- with one full of lethal ships while the others not. I read you did PvP once, I'll let you work out which mode contains which.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You can't ask your enemy to PvP because they'll go 'why?'. At some point you need to impose structure.

And that is where you go wrong.

Making PP OO doesn't change the mechanisms of PP. When the answer to people who ask: "Why should I play Poweplay in open is: 'because it is limited to open'", then that's a convoluted out of game reason. If the answer is: "Because PvP will grant you an advantage in the way Powerplay has developed", they will still have that choice, but now they'll have an in game reason that is linked with Powerplay.

In all discussions I have had over this, I have proposed mechanisms that would make PvP play a pivotal role in Powerplay. And it would mean developing Powerplay beyond the PvE mechanisms that drive it. And every time I got the response: "Might be a good idea, but it's too much work, Frontier won't spend that much time".

Now ask yourself 2 questions.
1. How long has it been that the Open Only grenade was thrown?
2. Has Frontier shown any inclination to follow up on that idea?

Because fellers, and I'm talking to the PPOO advocates here, I sincerely do hope you guys are discussing this because of academic purposes, purely out of a "what could have been" perspective and not out of the hope that Frontier is at one time going to read your thoughts about the matter and be persuaded.

 

[Bigmaec]

Because fellers, and I'm talking to the PPOO advocates here, I sincerely do hope you guys are discussion this out of academic purposes purely out of a "what could have been" perspective and not out of the hope that Frontier is at one time going to read your thoughts about the matter and be persuaded.

Sadly the first.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Sadly the first.

As an ex-plorer, I'm well aware of the feeling.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And that is where you go wrong.

Making PP OO doesn't change the mechanisms of PP. When the answer to people who ask: "Why should I play Poweplay in open is: 'because it is limited to open'", then that's a convoluted out of game reason. If the answer is: "Because PvP will grant you an advantage in the way Powerplay has developed", they will still have that choice, but now they'll have an in game reason that is linked with Powerplay.

In all discussions I have had over this, I have proposed mechanisms that would make PvP play a pivotal role in Powerplay. And it would mean developing Powerplay beyond the PvE mechanisms that drive it. And every time I got the response: "Might be a good idea, but it's too much work, Frontier won't spend that much time".

Without structure and limits you don't have a game, you have a chaotic mess where no-one is happy. In ED you have the BGS which is calm and orderly, and Powerplay that was released half baked with no long term vision. Its missing major features like collapse, leading to prolonged periods of exceptional stability where nothing happened, the exact opposite of what it was supposed to be.

You seem to forget too that Powerplay PvP is opportunistic that acts as a brake on PvE activities. The mega UM, fort direction and system condensation are all enablers of this. Without open within the current framework all you are doing is removing safe fortification caps and letting in potentially infinite grinding with no new gameplay. Contrast this with the BGS which has had untold changes and additions making it far more rounded.

Now ask yourself 2 questions.
1. How long has it been that the Open Only grenade was thrown?
2. Has Frontier shown any inclination to follow up on that idea?

Because fellers, and I'm talking to the PPOO advocates here, I sincerely do hope you guys are discussing this because of academic purposes, purely out of a "what could have been" perspective and not out of the hope that Frontier is at one time going to read your thoughts about the matter and be persuaded.

All we know is FD are happy with some of the proposal going by what I think Will stated, admittedly ages ago now. But from what we know in hindsight, the PP update was caught in the upheaval that was latter day Beyond- remember it was around when carriers were first supposed to be talked about, and mining. I know this because FD envisioned Powerplay being updated Xmas 2019 and around the time were keen to sort out 5C.

Now, as far as what 'being happy with'- this could mean:

1) we have a second anti 5C patch with voting on voting and fixing AD and Hudsons alignments. This would be dissapointing, because it would be then Powerplay has had two small patches adding nothing but 5C guards.

2) we have everything bar Open. This again does not provide any new gameplay, but introduces severe flaws that magnify problems.

3) we have all of it as it is- Open and all. This would replace NPCs with players in opportunistic PvP while PvE is going on. This part does introduce P2P issues as well as blocking inconsistencies, but considering the Powerplay population is below 1000 players (and possibly much, much less than this) FD may have gone for broke.

4) the silence means either its going to be retired, or a full rework. Ages ago Sandro did propose such a thing too, ironically.