How "Space Legs" should be implemented (in my opinion)

[Katie Byrne]

I think this would be difficult to merge with a typical current VR setup for Elite, like using a HOTAS or K+M. Sure, the motion controls (particularly the Index controllers) are great and could be used to create an intuitive VR interface, but switching mid-game from HOTAS to motion controllers would feel a bit clunky to me.

I think switching any control method is going to be a little clunky. HOTAS players will surely still need to switch to gamepad or M+KB anyway.

Switching to motion controller IS clunky in my experience btw, but dooable ☺

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

I think switching any control method is going to be a little clunky. HOTAS players will surely still need to switch to gamepad or M+KB anyway.

Switching to motion controller IS clunky in my experience btw, but dooable ☺

I use a HOTAS, but have K+M in between them and use the mouse for the FSS and the keyboard for typing. I also use K+M to navigate a browser window I project into the VR environment. Switching between them is easy as I know exactly where they are. Switching to the Index controllers would be much more clunky since they are strapped to your hands.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

The game exists on consoles.

Good luck.

No. ED is not on PSVR and Xbox has zero VR capabilities.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

The game exists on consoles.

Good luck.

No. ED is not on PSVR and Xbox has zero VR capabilities.

It used to be on Mac.

 

[VR Golgot]

I think this would be difficult to merge with a typical current VR setup for Elite, like using a HOTAS or K+M. Sure, the motion controls (particularly the Index controllers) are great and could be used to create an intuitive VR interface, but switching mid-game from HOTAS to motion controllers would feel a bit clunky to me.

If we're going full dreamscape, then a virtual cockpit + joystick fits the bill



No need to transition between controller set ups. NMS VR uses that system to an extent (and games like VTOL & Ultrawings suggest it can be done in a more 'sim-like' manner).

There's also this rather lovely mod which already does it for ED

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCRBfDAD-qk


I think ultimately we should reign our expectations in though. ED is a '2D first' game, and 2D will likely dictate the design philosophy. It's very possible that any VR support will just sit on top of those 2D designs, not be amplified in a parallel control set that exploits VR's benefits. Let alone have fun cosmetic aspects like IK arms and such.

But would virtual cockpits & Echo-style EVA be amazing? Oh hell yeah

 

[govny]

in Ed there are places like stations and planets where there is gravity. I find it would be extremelly difficult to implement a physic and a locomotion system that function well in both ways.
To me is much more likely that Frontier will go for the same locomotion system justifying this with the use of some kind of magnetic boots on ships.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

in Ed there are places like stations and planets where there is gravity. I find it would be extremelly difficult to implement a physic and a locomotion system that function well in both ways.
To me is much more likely that Frontier will go for the same locomotion system justifying this with the use of some kind of magnetic boots on ships.

And magnetic coffee cups, and magnetic plates, and magnetic biscuits and magnetic coffee, and magnetic scrap paper and other general junk, and every single one will affect the other, as I said earlier... if it's to be done properly it's gonna burn your PC out.
Just stick with the gravity and everything in the ship has the same direction of pull.

 

[wetwire]

Lore wise Elite does not have artificial gravity tech. movement while in a ship is intended to be zero G, also hinted at by the placement of the handholds inside the cockpit when you look around. Large stations rotate to take advantage of centrifugal force to "simulate" gravity. Drew Wager made use of Magnetic boots in his books which are endorsed by Frontier so it stands to reason that type of technology is also cannon.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Lore wise Elite does not have artificial gravity tech. movement while in a ship is intended to be zero G, also hinted at by the placement of the handholds inside the cockpit when you look around. Large stations rotate to take advantage of centrifugal force to "simulate" gravity. Drew Wager made use of Magnetic boots in his books which are endorsed by Frontier so it stands to reason that type of technology is also cannon.

That may well be so, but the shortsightedness of the DB and IB in back in 1984 shouldn't have to be held as unchallenged and unchanging Lore for the future, imagination in common sense should be the the way forward and hopefully we'll see that in the 'NEW ERA' 👁

 

[VR Golgot]

in Ed there are places like stations and planets where there is gravity. I find it would be extremelly difficult to implement a physic and a locomotion system that function well in both ways.
To me is much more likely that Frontier will go for the same locomotion system justifying this with the use of some kind of magnetic boots on ships.

And magnetic coffee cups, and magnetic plates, and magnetic biscuits and magnetic coffee, and magnetic scrap paper and other general junk, and every single one will affect the other, as I said earlier... if it's to be done properly it's gonna burn your PC out.
Just stick with the gravity and everything in the ship has the same direction of pull.

Lore wise Elite does not have artificial gravity tech. movement while in a ship is intended to be zero G, also hinted at by the placement of the handholds inside the cockpit when you look around. Large stations rotate to take advantage of centrifugal force to "simulate" gravity. Drew Wager made use of Magnetic boots in his books which are endorsed by Frontier so it stands to reason that type of technology is also cannon.

The old design + lore ideas certainly leaned to mag boots & hand-holds + EVA via suit thrusters etc

• Braben on ship design: "It still makes sense for there to be some sort of general orientation to the ship where people walk around inside and you need to have a concept of up. But also we design it in mind the fact that it will spend some of its time in zero-g, so there are some interesting design philosophies that come from that, and you'll see that over the period of development" (Feb 2013)

• Newsletter 14: Another avenue for exploration is how the pilot or crew navigates within the starship, when in free space. There is no ‘magical’ anti-gravity, but walkways/floors designed to be stood upon are ferromagnetic, and tiny electromagnets built in to the soles of shoes (they are very small indeed, so shoes are still elegant, lightweight affairs –heavy boots are not needed). Additionally the ship has many convenient handholds for easy manoeuvring. The less basic suits include micro thrusters, to aid zero-G movement – and providing a useful edge in zero-G combat!
  
  +
  
  Also note the sturdy grab rail on the main panel; similar hand holds would be located at regular spacing throughout the interior of the vessel to allow easier traversal.
  
  
  

• Ye Olde Prototype [right panel]
  
  
  

Guess we'll see how it pans out.

 

[[VR] Dr Gentech]

I’d be really, really (pleasantly) surprised if we get Motion controls in the Next Era - I think any Legs expansion would have VR implementation akin to Subnautica or the Alien: Isolation mod, as opposed to how NMS has done it. With PvP being a possibility, I don’t think flatscreen players would be too happy with VR users being able to crouch in cover and blindfire around corners, like is possible in the VR shooters I own.

Your “body mounted thrusters” might answer your question regarding differing gravities - I could see the suit equivalent to the SRV wheel thrusters keeping us on the ground in low gravity or stop us from trying to do an impression of a puddle in high G. Though I’d quite like the option to go Walk Assist Off and be able to play at John Carter!

The only game I can think off that had a brief glimpse of something similar was the first off-world mission in CoD Infinite Warfare - after a crash landing on the Moon you get to bound across the surface before entering an airlock, which unfortunately (IMO) lets in full Earth gravity along with the oxygen. Most games seem to do zero-G or 1G but nothing in between.

Even if there’s no IK motion controls, I really hope the full body model is displayed in first person. Although floaty hands aren’t that bad (once you get into a game like HL: Alyx, you tend to forget about not having a visible bod) I much prefer the full kit - my fav mod for SkyrimVR is the full-body VRIK mod, it’s cool to be able to see what you’re wearing and also occasionally get spooked by your own shadow when in dungeons haha.

Edit: thinking about FPS battles in zero-G, I hope FDev have watched The Expanse TV series - I thought people in mag-boots getting shot and then going into a T-pose in a cloud of blood looked proper disturbing.

Re: VR advantage: Pancake players like myself would get button-press reloads and other advantages over VR so I don't think it'll be completely one-sided. Besides, this game already has competitive PvP as an important aspect according to some and accepts different control inputs that have vastly different precision and utility. The game just seems to accept that some control methods will provide an advantage and that's an acceptable compromise in the name of providing people with a good experience no matter their preferred input method. As for whether we'll get them, I really hope so. To keep me interested in this game I'm planning on getting VR so I hope they support it well. It's currently one of the best VR games and it could keep that position with a bit of elbow grease as part of space legs.

Great point on body mounted thrusters, hadn't thought of that, and I'll second the request for Walk Assist Off

100% agreed about IK being much better for a game like Elite and hoping that they take inspiration from the Expanse. God I hope this update is even 50% of its potential...

I think this would be difficult to merge with a typical current VR setup for Elite, like using a HOTAS or K+M. Sure, the motion controls (particularly the Index controllers) are great and could be used to create an intuitive VR interface, but switching mid-game from HOTAS to motion controllers would feel a bit clunky to me.

You'll already have to switch controls unless you're planning on playing FPS gameplay with a HOTAS. The Index's are the only controllers that would be a bit harder than transitioning to KB+M or controller, but they're not that common and you get realistic finger tracking for the annoyance. I imagine you could get pretty practiced at putting them on and off quickly without sight if you're doing it multiple times per play session.

in Ed there are places like stations and planets where there is gravity. I find it would be extremelly difficult to implement a physic and a locomotion system that function well in both ways.
To me is much more likely that Frontier will go for the same locomotion system justifying this with the use of some kind of magnetic boots on ships.

I'm not saying Frontier won't take the easy way out, there's a hell of a lot more precedence for just ignoring gravity differences altogether and treating everything like it's 1g down, but it's incorrect to say their engine can't handle it. Essentially all ship flight not close to planets is zero-g, and all flight close to planets is varying-g. They already have a realistic physics model for moving and colliding a first person view in zero-g through to minimal g through to high g, it's the physics model their ships use. They did the hard work of modelling varying gravity and how it affected movement, collisions, and locomotion when they introduced Horizons.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

You'll already have to switch controls unless you're planning on playing FPS gameplay with a HOTAS. The Index's are the only controllers that would be a bit harder than transitioning to KB+M or controller, but they're not that common and you get realistic finger tracking for the annoyance. I imagine you could get pretty practiced at putting them on and off quickly without sight if you're doing it multiple times per play session.

To be honest, I would probably just revert to my Vive wands unless the additional precision and functionality of the Index controllers was needed.

 

[[VR] Dr Gentech]

That may well be so, but the shortsightedness of the DB and IB in back in 1984 shouldn't have to be held as unchallenged and unchanging Lore for the future, imagination in common sense should be the the way forward and hopefully we'll see that in the 'NEW ERA' 👁

Frankly I hope they keep their far-sighted and visionary focus on realistic, achievable technology rather than magic, especially because doing so fully would open up great gameplay opportunities. I think it's common sense and a good use of imagination to use a solution that's both more realistic and enables more gameplay.

 

[[VR] Dr Gentech]

To be honest, I would probably just revert to my Vive wands unless the additional precision of the Index controllers was needed.

If you've already got them (I understand they're quite expensive), I think it'd be a reasonable idea to at least try them for our sake one thing I'm really looking forward to with New Era? Seeing everyone update their drool worthy battlestations to accommodate the new controls...

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

If you've already got them (I understand they're quite expensive), I think it'd be a reasonable idea to at least try them for our sake one thing I'm really looking forward to with New Era? Seeing everyone update their drool worthy battlestations to accommodate the new controls...

The full Index kit costs around 1100 EUR if I don't misremember. I don't remember at all what just the controllers cost. Since I was sporting a Vive Wireless before moving to the Index for seated games and the individual components are compatible, I can pick and choose which ones I use for what. If I can stomach the resolution, I will probably run Alyx on the wireless Vive when I start playing it just for added immersion of being unwired. Being untethered made a huge difference on my SkyrimVR experience ... on the other hand ... the Index resolution ... on the other hand ... the Vive black levels ... Choices, choices, life is hard!

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Frankly I hope they keep their far-sighted and visionary focus on realistic, achievable technology rather than magic, especially because doing so fully would open up great gameplay opportunities. I think it's common sense and a good use of imagination to use a solution that's both more realistic and enables more gameplay.

Yes indeed, a low voltage (almost a trickle charge) applied to the dark matter coating on the deck would give a variable gravitational field, apply more charge and raise the gravity threshold, no magic pixie dust used there, unlike the Anaconda and the Jump drive and the Faster than light interplanetary drive... lol

 

[Rat Catcher]

The full Index kit costs around 1100 EUR if I don't misremember. I don't remember at all what just the controllers cost. Since I was sporting a Vive Wireless before moving to the Index for seated games and the individual components are compatible, I can pick and choose which ones I use for what. If I can stomach the resolution, I will probably run Alyx on the wireless Vive when I start playing it just for added immersion of being unwired. Being untethered made a huge difference on my SkyrimVR experience ... on the other hand ... the Index resolution ... on the other hand ... the Vive black levels ... Choices, choices, life is hard!

Alyx appears to have had its black levels set with LED displays in mind rather than OLED as there is no 'true' black scenes that I remember, just very dark. Enjoy it on the Index, it appears to have been made for it

 

[[VR] Dr Gentech]

Yes indeed, a low voltage (almost a trickle charge) applied to the dark matter coating on the deck would give a variable gravitational field, apply more charge and raise the gravity threshold, no magic pixie dust used there, unlike the Anaconda and the Jump drive and the Faster than light interplanetary drive... lol

Well you got me there, FTL travel is magic (and I assume by Anaconda you're referring to the weight? It's not just the Annie, the T9 is barely heavier than air, all the ships have borked weight). For my fix of genuinely quite realistic spacecraft combat (which entails significant compromises in fun and playability) I go with Children of a Dead Earth. It's great for what it is.

However, none of that (which is largely, AFAIK, inherited lore debt from their decades of games) justifies making the game significantly less realistic by introducing non-rotational artificial gravity. The game right now is more realistic than a lot of space games (admittedly not saying much) and I hope it stays that way. Especially because they do have realistic artificial gravity in game, rotational gravity, and that would have no reason to exist if magic artificial gravity came along.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

it appears to have been made for it

Strange - isn't it.
What still worries me is the tether vs wireless. We shall see what happens.

 

[[VR] Dr Gentech]

Strange - isn't it.
What still worries me is the tether vs wireless. We shall see what happens.

I really hope the Quest 2 has officially supported wireless Oculus Link and it also has better quality than current Oculus Link. Really I just hope it's better in every way + wireless.