Ships Shield dynamics in ED.

[F4fred]

I have been looking at some of the builds posted here and elsewhere and trying out the shield tester on the Down to Earth Astronomy website and struggling to get my head round some of the choices. I find the shield mechanics of ED the most involved, but have a basic understanding and essentially there are 3 types of builds from what I understand so far.
(1) Single use. This would be shields for a trader or mining ship. Not worried about recharging the plan is the shield will absorb enough damage until you can escape. This would have an A rated or Prismatic shield, with heavy duty, super cap boosters. No Guardian shield boosters or shield banks as you need the slots for cargo, mining equipment etc. This sort of shield would also be useful for an exploration ship although Prismatics would add a lot of extra weight.
(2) Rechargeable. This type of shielding would be for a combat ship where you need sustained protection over time, such as hunting in CZ’s or Res sites. So a biweave shield with boosters to enhance resistances and a modicum of Guardian boosters, but not too many as pushing the absolute MJ up harms the recharge rate. No shield banks as the recharge rate keeps the shield topped up between fights. Additional slots would be used for hull and module reinforcements to boost hull hit points in case your shields go down.
(3) High intensity combat build. This sort of build would be for high threat environments where you expect to get a lot of incoming fire, but need to stay in combat, such as high intensity CZ. This would have A rated or Prismatic shields, heavy duty super cap boosters, Guardian boosters and shield cell banks. Aim is to push shield HP high. Recharge rates are poor, but the shield banks supply the recharge ability.
So far so good. Now comes the confusing part. Have looked at some builds. For example someone sent me a Corvette build designed for Haz Res PvE. It has biweave shields, boosters to augment resistances, so far so good, but then it has heavy duty super cap boosters and a shield cell bank. This pushes the absolute MJ up and slows recharge right down, to the point where the shield bank makes sense to add recharge ability. Swapping out the heavy duty boosters knocks over a minute off the recharge time and pushes the resistances higher. If you are going to go with high MJ why not an A rated shield or Prismatic? Do they know something I don’t? is there a point where heavy duty boosters and SCB’s makes sense with biweaves? The rest of the build features hull and module reinforcements so it is hull tanked too.

 

[metatheurgist]

Increasing MJ doesn't actually change recharge rates. It changes recharge times but only because you're filling a bigger bucket; the rate remains the same.

 

[F4fred]

Ok, but isn’t the point of biweaves to have a small, tough bucket that fills quickly? If you need another bucket to fill up your bucket, why not just get a bigger bucket in the first place?

 

[metatheurgist]

Biweaves work best in situations where you get a change to recharge your shields. If there's a significant downtime or you can evade fire long enough to recover. Each extra MJ regained with good resists is like gaining a multiple of MJ increasing your effect shield HP. There isn't really a hard and fast rule, for PvE I'm lazy so I just go for the highest resists and guardian boosts but others may not be comfortable with that and may take a combo and throw in some SCBs.

I can't stand the charge times of prismos so no matter how big that bucket gets I'm never going to use it. If they hadn't introduced the cheap (yeah, I went there) reboot technique they'd be even less usable.

 

[F4fred]

Sorry you mean SCB’s as the cheap reboot technique? From what I see SCB’s with Prismatics are a necessity unless you going with a 1 use, escape shield. So do my basic premises hold up? Looks like I still need to get my head round the nuances.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Ok, but isn’t the point of biweaves to have a small, tough bucket that fills quickly? If you need another bucket to fill up your bucket, why not just get a bigger bucket in the first place?

It's a mix. You need a certain amount of raw shield MJ, because plasma weapons ignoring resistances are a thing. So you balance MJ and resistances to a happy medium. The Biweave recharge is sometimes enough in a fight, sometimes it isn't, but it certainly refills the shield between fights. The SCBs are backup against damage exceeding the recharge rate, but paired with a Biweave you have to use them a lot less often than with a Prismatic, so you last longer overall before needing to restock.

 

[Just Paul]

It all depends on the use. For example my PvP FdLs have usually prismatics with scbs to increase their healthpool. This is to have high enough raw MJs to take multiple PA salvos. If I use the same FdL for CZ duty I change the weapons to beams and the prismo to a bi-weave, but I keep the SCBs. The SCBs are as a backup to keep the shields up during the engagement, but usually they are not needed as the recharge is enough to bring them back to a good % in between engagements.
Bi-weaves can be used in multiple ways. One is to have low raw MJ and high resists, this is usually used for hybrid builds there the shield is expected to collapse and rebuild multiple times during a fight. Low raw MJ == faster broken rebuild. You somewhat out of luck if you run into a PA heavy build as 60% of the damage is absolute, but such is life in the galaxy.
Another way would be to use it as a heavy bi-weave. It's a similar setup to a prismatic or a-rated shield, much higher raw MJ and lower + less balanced resists. This can be used if you have multiple fights in a row, like stacked assassination missions, res-sites, or CZ. The goal is to never loose the shield as the rebuild will take a while, but still take advantage of the high regen rate then not under fire. SCBs can come in handy to keep your bi-weave from collapsing.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Even a 3500mj bi weave on a vette will have a fast enough recharge to be able to stay in the fight for longer periods of time. There are two different "ways" to run a biweave.

For example, on my Corvette, I can kill multiple deadly anacondas in a pirate activity threat 7 without ever having to fire off a a SCB but I still have them just in case.

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

s.orbis.zone

With my Chieftain though, the idea is to allow my shields to drop and have my armor tank the damage until my shields come back. In a PvP fight I will lose my shields and get them back about 6 times.

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

coriolis.io

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Also, I would be weary of taking any advice from Down to Earth Astronomy. I've seen many of his videos and to be brutally honest, he doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to building ships engineering or pinning blueprints. I would even go as far as to say some of his vids are bad information.

 

[Non Grata]

Also, I would be weary of taking any advice from Down to Earth Astronomy. I've seen many of his videos and to be brutally honest, he doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to building ships engineering or pinning blueprints. I would even go as far as to say some of his vids are bad information.

I watched his "how to build an exploration ship" stream. He didn't even know about undersized engine focused distributors.

 

[F4fred]

Wo

It all depends on the use. For example my PvP FdLs have usually prismatics with scbs to increase their healthpool. This is to have high enough raw MJs to take multiple PA salvos. If I use the same FdL for CZ duty I change the weapons to beams and the prismo to a bi-weave, but I keep the SCBs. The SCBs are as a backup to keep the shields up during the engagement, but usually they are not needed as the recharge is enough to bring them back to a good % in between engagements.
Bi-weaves can be used in multiple ways. One is to have low raw MJ and high resists, this is usually used for hybrid builds there the shield is expected to collapse and rebuild multiple times during a fight. Low raw MJ == faster broken rebuild. You somewhat out of luck if you run into a PA heavy build as 60% of the damage is absolute, but such is life in the galaxy.
Another way would be to use it as a heavy bi-weave. It's a similar setup to a prismatic or a-rated shield, much higher raw MJ and lower + less balanced resists. This can be used if you have multiple fights in a row, like stacked assassination missions, res-sites, or CZ. The goal is to never loose the shield as the rebuild will take a while, but still take advantage of the high regen rate then not under fire. SCBs can come in handy to keep your bi-weave from collapsing.

Would you care to share your FDL builds? This may seem a daft question, but if you hardly ever use the SCB’s on some of your builds why have them? Wouldn’t it be more useful to put extra armour in instead? So on the FDL a 4B SCB is heavier than the 4D HRP with heavy duty deep plating and the 4A is only just over a ton lighter. The HRP gives you over 600 armour HP’s.

 

[Northpin]

Sorry you mean SCB’s as the cheap reboot technique? From what I see SCB’s with Prismatics are a necessity unless you going with a 1 use, escape shield. So do my basic premises hold up? Looks like I still need to get my head round the nuances.

He meant Reboot/Repair as the cheap shield recharge.
If you halt your ship and do not take damage during the reboot process - your shields come back at 50%.
Best way to recharge slow charging shields, Prismatics mainly but it works for A rated and also for large Bi-weaves

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Wo

Would you care to share your FDL builds? This may seem a daft question, but if you hardly ever use the SCB’s on some of your builds why have them? Wouldn’t it be more useful to put extra armour in instead? So on the FDL a 4B SCB is heavier than the 4D HRP with heavy duty deep plating and the 4A is only just over a ton lighter. The HRP gives you over 600 armour HP’s.

You have those SCBs for those moments when you need them to not let the shield drop at all. When an FdL is shieldless it's time to run. No HRPs help there, the ship just isn't cut out to hull tank.

 

[F4fred]

Even a 3500mj bi weave on a vette will have a fast enough recharge to be able to stay in the fight for longer periods of time. There are two different "ways" to run a biweave.

For example, on my Corvette, I can kill multiple deadly anacondas in a pirate activity threat 7 without ever having to fire off a a SCB but I still have them just in case.

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

s.orbis.zone

With my Chieftain though, the idea is to allow my shields to drop and have my armor tank the damage until my shields come back. In a PvP fight I will lose my shields and get them back about 6 times.

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

coriolis.io

I don’t have any big ships yet, small and medium only. My current builds are PVE and I have been using biweaves, a Guardian booster to add extra raw MJ and using the utility slot boosters to improve resistances. I have been using my current Vulture build quite intensively in the last few days and the shield holds up well and recharges fast too. I can take on a wing of 3 including big ships like deadly Anacondas without problems. I Don’t have access to Prismatics yet, but will get them soon. I can see me using them on traders and mining ships And for shield tanky builds. The whole shield dynamics is the most complicated thing about ED, so far for me. With 3 different shield types, Guardian boosters, SCB’s, Shield Boosters and all the different engineering choices the combinations are enormous.

 

[F4fred]

Also, I would be weary of taking any advice from Down to Earth Astronomy. I've seen many of his videos and to be brutally honest, he doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to building ships engineering or pinning blueprints. I would even go as far as to say some of his vids are bad information.

Interesting. I thought his video on pinning engineers was ok and it is very much personal preference anyway, but most of the ones I have pinned are the same he used. What videos do you think give bad information? Are there any resources for good info?

 

[F4fred]

You have those SCBs for those moments when you need them to not let the shield drop at all. When an FdL is shieldless it's time to run. No HRPs help there, the ship just isn't cut out to hull tank.

That brings up another interaction. The balance between shield and hull. Is it a simple binary choice, shields or hull or is there place for a balanced build with a decent shield and good armour? If there is what ships are suitable for this?

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

That brings up another interaction. The balance between shield and hull. Is it a simple binary choice, shields or hull or is there place for a balanced build with a decent shield and good armour? If there is what ships are suitable for this?

Play around with builds in Coriolis, and you'll soon get a feel for which ship is suitable for what. The Alliance ships and the medium Federal ships as well as the Imperial Clipper are more on the hull tanking side, FdL, Mamba, Cutter are more shield tanks. Krait, Anaconda, Corvette make decent hybrids.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Interesting. I thought his video on pinning engineers was ok and it is very much personal preference anyway, but most of the ones I have pinned are the same he used. What videos do you think give bad information? Are there any resources for good info?

I'll have to go back and watch it again because I can't remember all that he screwed up but the main one I remember is powerplants. You want to pin Armored from Hera Tani and Overcharged from Marco Qwent.
DTEA said he was overcharging all his power plants and if that's true, he clearly has no clue how to properly build a ship. You should always be trying to armor your powerplants and only overcharging when you have to. The only people that should be pinning G5 overcharged from Hera Tani are players that do nothing but exploration.

All of Exigeous' videos are fantastic. So are Hazzmango and Rinzler o7o7o7

 

[Just Paul]

Would you care to share your FDL builds? This may seem a daft question, but if you hardly ever use the SCB’s on some of your builds why have them? Wouldn’t it be more useful to put extra armour in instead? So on the FDL a 4B SCB is heavier than the 4D HRP with heavy duty deep plating and the 4A is only just over a ton lighter. The HRP gives you over 600 armour HP’s.

The PvP build: https://is.gd/66JrcE It's one of the standard builds, I used the C4 Prismatic as I didn't had any C5 left.
The CZ PvE build: https://is.gd/pzKkAx The weapons are just what I had around and was good enough to run multiple highs in a row. The rebuild of the bi-weave is 3min, you don't want to be that long without shields in an CZ. You could turn of the HD boosters and get it down to 1.5 min, but you are still vulnerable to missiles in that time. The whole purpose of the build is for longevity, running multiple high CZ stringed together without needing to go for repair or rearm. The SCBs are there for the moments I need to draw aggro from multiple npcs to help my side or if all 4 spec ops drop on me together.

That brings up another interaction. The balance between shield and hull. Is it a simple binary choice, shields or hull or is there place for a balanced build with a decent shield and good armour? If there is what ships are suitable for this?

A shield tank should have enough hull underneath to not get phased to death before the shields drop and/or you jump out. Real hulltanks don't have shields, but they are at a big disadvantage in today's galaxy, to many hard counters, shield pip multiplier, damage from rams,.... Hybrids are in between and you could have a small bi-weave and lot's of hull or a bigger bi-weave and hull. Which one to build is personal preference and ship related. Compared to shield tanks with hybrids you can keep fighting even if the shield goes down.
I have shield tank, hybrid, and hulltank FdLs. They are all fun, but for a serious fight I would use the standard build I posted first. My favorite on the other hand is a shieldless, stealth all PA FdL.

 

[F4fred]

I'll have to go back and watch it again because I can't remember all that he screwed up but the main one I remember is powerplants. You want to pin Armored from Hera Tani and Overcharged from Marco Qwent.
DTEA said he was overcharging all his power plants and if that's true, he clearly has no clue how to properly build a ship. You should always be trying to armor your powerplants and only overcharging when you have to. The only people that should be pinning G5 overcharged from Hera Tani are players that do nothing but exploration.

All of Exigeous' videos are fantastic. So are Hazzmango and Rinzler o7o7o7

I use a lot of overcharged PP’s, but that is with ships that struggle for power. My Vulture has G5 overcharged monstered as that was the only way I could get enough power to run everything I wanted, even with shuffling priorities. Even then there are certain weapons that won’t go without efficient engineering. Most pins seem self evident.