ANNOUNCEMENT Elite Dangerous: Odyssey Announcement

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I have to say I'm disappointed about no VR.
I'm in the minority, but I prefer seated VR with non-vr controls for long sessions. I don't want long sessions standing for any game. Keeping VR with standard 2D controls should, I would think, be easier to implement and is in keeping with the current implementation.
I don't think any of the guys ranting about the withdrawal of VR support from odyssey expected 3D hand controls using things like oculus touch to ever come to elite?

It's corporate speak, they won't commit to it, but maybe some shareholders will want it done, so they leave that possibility open. Basically "When broken shells make Christmas bells" or "when pigs fly" kind-of-way.

We have seen that on HL: Alyx release, it was a cringefest of total ignorance, anger, salt, and total rejection of what the game accomplished. I've seen arguments (some are in this thread) and reasonings dating back to 2016, and total vitriol thrown to polite people who tried to explain. Gimmicks, svivel gameplays, 3dtvs, nasa computers needed, cost a kidney, makes cows lose milk and think of the children, what have you. It was not a pretty sight, humanity at its toxic finest.


No Man's Sky added VR. Bugthesda added VR in Skyrim and Fallout 4. Hell, MODDERS made GTA V singleplayer playable with VR start to finish! Too lazy to list more titles, they were given in this thread already. TL; DR: many titles added VR support as an afterthought. And while it's not as good as a game made specifically for VR as Alyx is, they are still good experiences.
New SRV's were more enthusiastically promised at Horizons beta / launch as definitely with less wriggle words than appeared in the Oddysey unveil regarding VR coming back.
Now I can tumble in a flat spin in F14 Tomcat in DCS or downhill in a srv in Elite no problem at all.
OMG! - You killed goose!

I have a hard time with just audio headsets. I always have. No matter how expensive or comfortable people claim they are, I would always end up uncomfortable or with a headache. My experience with VR was the piddly experience with Samsung VR on the phone, that also got hot and uncomfortable. I think it's just that these things aren't for everyone. It's hard to explain, maybe it's an adaptation thing that you need to ease your way into, but I could for sure wear full military gear for days, but a VR set or like I said, even headphones, can't go for very long without some sort of discomfort.

The sad part for me is that VR players truly feel like the game is over for them without VR. I can't wrap my head around that, because I've always felt the game looked fantastic in 2D. Though maybe it's a bit like having a high quality audio solution, you just never want to go back to consumer audio once you experience a pro set.

I have to admit, I don't understand why folks are saying about VR in Odyssey that they are "sad to see it go", or that VR is somehow being removed or dropped from Elite Odyssey. Odyssey is a new expansion that none of us have yet, so none of us have played it in VR. So when Frontier says no VR support for Odyssey, I don't see how that is understood as something being removed or taken away. We've never had that in the first place, though it certainly would be a neat new feature.

Frontier have already confirmed that VR isn't going away in Elite; it's just not going to be in the new expansion (at launch, anyway). We'll all still be able to play Elite in VR just as we've already been doing. Nothing's lost.

As Mal would say "Can't miss a place you've never been."
VR has been baked into elite since alpha, its been in game before orbis star ports for crying out loud.

And quite likely cheaper to do back then. Today's hardware is more demanding, and players have other games to compare it to.
Headsets were much more expensive back then, and harder to get hold of, and the hardware requirements were prohibitive. Now you can run VR on a 1070 / 2060 graphics card, then you needed 980ti. The 980ti was what ~£650 Similar money for the DK1/DK2 headset of the era, so looking at ~£1300 in VR hardware, now ~£350 for a rift s ~£400 for a rtx2060 so all in ~£750 for a VR hardware set up. Pus the VR hardware comes with more toys like the hand controllers, which weren't even developed back then and were ~£90 individually at launch iirc.

What they've done so far compares rather nicely to other games, though I'm not sure how their FPS mode would go. I'm not surprised if they choose not to do FPS in VR at all.

With that said- the hardware isn't a big issue; the game already seems to support most of the major hardware people have thrown at it. Over on the VR subforum we've seen Oculus products from the dk1 up to the S and even the Quest and well as the Vive, Vive Pro, Index, Hp Odyssey+ and Reverb, and Pimaxes. So by way of supporting the hardware there doesn't seem to be much issue for their current engine at all.
It's only one or two API's the developer needs to use to catch all VR headsets, Oculus API through their oculus app directly, and or steam VR API using steam to talk to the headset and or interface between game and oculus software-->oculus headset.

I'm hoping we will see guardian ruins hidden in jungles on elws.
I hope you get that too, an on foot with hostile flaura and fauna to content with, but don't expect to see that sort of things in Odyssey at launch, odyssey will most likely be arid dust ball planets (think mars) and gradually add more complex atmospheres and ecosystems plus population centres (cities) in subsequent updates.
 
Headsets were much more expensive back then, and harder to get hold of, and the hardware requirements were prohibitive.
Not the hardware requirements. The software requirements. Today's VR has higher resolutions, higher framerates and higher expectations from players. So it is more expensive to support in software. Braben in the press release:
"Extending coverage to the super-fine scale that is needed for on-foot gameplay while maintaining the vast raw distances measured in light years, is a huge achievement by the team..."
They've likely engaged in some serious software engineering, and decided VR support on launch was not worth the extra time and money.
 
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I think that by adding first-person movement to the game, you can expand the feeling of engagement with the game the way that it already is, making an already great game fantastic. Nevermind the shooting if that's not what you want to do.

Being able to do stuff inside your ship, jump out your SRV and go into a surface facility-- search an abandoned research facility for some old computer or something, or EVA to a derelict ship and board it to get something out of it rather than just using your data scanner in a mission. Or take the data to a broker on a station if you want to rather than contacting them from the cockpit.

I personally want to go into the the sales office and walk around on the catwalks and look at ships when I'm going to buy one.
 
wait... is this thread still going on about VR support? i see the same 10 to 20 people re-stating the same complaint again and again, making it seem more severe than it actually is lol

As you have already noted yourself, I am sure the majority of those 10-20 would simply have stated their disappointment once, and that would have been that, and the thread would have been nice and slim, if there hadn't been a second, smaller group of people, deciding to pick a dogged fight with the first. :7

imagine if the Devs said "not supported PERIOD" instead of "INITIALLY" :ROFLMAO:

Would have been a great deal preferable. Blunt honesty one can respect.
Being strung along with vague hints which there is usually no intent to do good on, less so.

just want to say, VR or no VR, Base building or no base building, ship interrior or no ship interrior, im just happy and glad, that we had SOME news, of whats going to come. it restored my hope in elite dangerous, and hopefully more to come. Good job dear devs, and good luck. you clearly have a tough and difficult community to deal with. i admire your patience and commitment. 🥳

Even though I have no motivation to play if there is no VR, I am really keen on hearing whether the animation/IK/physics/behaviour framework has been as comprehensively worked out as one would hope. The variety in dynamics of moving about in different g environments (and with magnetic boots, which is of course drastically different to walking under gravity/acceleration) is something I consider fundamentally important to Elite, as I picture it, and have long been interested in experiencing, and seeing how it modulates gameplay (not one for combat, me, but I imagine it should be a compelling tactical consideration). :7
 
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As you have already noted yourself, I am sure the majority of those 10-20 would simply have stated their disappointment once, and that would have been that, and the thread would have been nice and slim, if there hadn't been a second, smaller group of people, deciding to pick a dogged fight with the first. :7



Would have been a great deal preferable. Blunt honesty one can respect.
Being strung along with vague hints which there are usually no intent to do good on, less so.



Even though I have no motivation to play if there is no VR, I am really keen on hearing whether the animation/IK/physics/behaviour framework has been as comprehensively worked out as one would hope. The variety in dynamics of moving about in different g environments (and with magnetic boots, which is of course drastically different to walking under gravity/acceleration) is something I consider fundamentally important to Elite, as I picture it, and have long been interested in experiencing, and seeing how it modulates gameplay (not one for combat, me, but I imagine it should be a compelling tactical consideration). :7
Yea you're probably right. I will own up to my contribution in the escalation of this. I want ALL of you to be able to enjoy the game in the way you choose to view it. I really believe they are still working on it and just didnt want to delay the update any further than current circumstances have caused. o7
 
Not the hardware requirements. The software requirements. Today's VR has higher resolutions, higher framerates and higher expectations from players. So it is more expensive to support in software. Braben in the press release:
They've likely engaged in some serious software engineering, and decided VR support on launch was not worth the extra time and money.

Well you'd said "And quite likely cheaper to do back then. Today's hardware is more demanding, and players have other games to compare it to. " so I'd read that as a hardware query, but fair enough, if it was the you were talking about my answer would have been irrelevant. The software side of putting VR in a game wouldn't have changed much if any, its still going to be steam VR / Oculus API that gets accessed to make a game communicate with the VR headset, and those have remained pretty consistent and backwards compatible if not totally unchanged over the years.

The resolutions / framerate haven't gone up that much, sure the HP Reverb is 2160x2160 per eye, but there was the pimax at 3840x2160 per eye launched not long after the oculus rift / htc vive, and the rift has always used 90hz refresh, which is about the norm for most headsets now. But increases to resolution or framerate don't burden the games developers, they put extra computational load on the computer, but its the same code.

Basically as I understand it, and overly simplified it for a late night forum post, the game gets Intra Pupulary Distance (the distance between your eyes), head orientation (yaw pitch roll) and position of the headset in in X + Y + Z space from the VR API, and thus ascertains what the player can see. It then says to the gfx card render me this picture at this resolution (left eye) and this one of the same object but with the camera IPDmm to the right of the previous image's viewpoint, difference in left/right eye height due to headset roll (leaning left or right) is also a factor here but lets keep this simple. The resultant picture is then sent through the VR API where the VR software then sends the image and the corresponding cued sounds to the headset.

As long as the game has the assets modelled to a decent resolution, and textures mapped to a decent resolution, and engine that supports camera rotation (pretty much everything since the original doom and Wolfenstein on dos) and the API hooks in the code, the game will run VR and all the heavy lifting of the VR gubbins such as talking to the different headsets resolutions/screen refreshrates / positional tracking software & sensor setup is done by the oculus or steam VR client. The higher resolution the headset is, the more complex the equations the GFX card has to do to render those pictures, the higher the refresh rate, the more frequently, as in less time per picture, the gfx card has to render the pictures.

The above might be slightly out, it might be the API asks the game for a render of a picture from this position and direction for one eye, and the same for another eye, and the game talks to the gfx card and sends the picture data to the API to send to the headset, but the fact remains the heavy lifting of interfacing with the headset directly, and all its hardware requirements (resolution/refresh rate & sensor data) is handled by the VR client.

With regards to the assets being sufficiently high resolution - David Braben has said that elites assets are modelled at 16k resolution, although I suspect that is not what is shipped in game, it is available for future tech and game updates.

The trick you mentioned about scaling the galaxy from light years to centimetres, it may have been reworked in odessy, but its something the game has done since launch, and done it very well. Essentially you could go to a planet surface, and land at an NPC base, shoot up some skimmers with centimetre tolerance for their position and your weapons fire, and or scan a data point, again, centimetre level accuracy for targeting and scanning the reciprocating antenna, and that's all at one scale the super accurate sub cm you mention. So you then jump into your ship and make a break for it, a couple of km up you engage supercruise, now you are dealing on a scale of a couple of squared/cubed lightyears for the system area. You hit your nav pane and go into galaxymap, plotting a route to a system a couple of jumps away, and start jumping to get there. Each time you jump, the skybox renderer is working on a scale of thousands of light years to render the background stars relevant to where the star system you are in is located. You can see this clearly approaching the pleiades nebule, when you see the nebula getting bigger and bigger in the last couple of jumps.
 
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As a console player I do understand the love for VR in ED. As I got to try it once on a rig a friend has, and it was glorious! They had personalized rig setup with switches for weapons and control systems. But if I recall ED didn't have VR support when it came out (as far as I can remember, so I might be wrong) and Odyssey isn't any different. It won't be from the start, more then likely. For all we know VR support is something they are working on, but they'd rather get Odyssey pushed out and cmdrs playing and not delay it till late 2021. After all they got to get Odyssey up and running before they can work on VR right? Getting Odyssey finished and do test servers for VR to see how it works and runs. Or else they'd hamstring themselves I'd think.
 
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I really believe they are still working on it and just didnt want to delay the update any further than current circumstances have caused. o7

Here's hoping, and thanks for the well-wishes! :)

The software side of putting VR in a game wouldn't have changed much if any, its still going to be steam VR / Oculus API that gets accessed to make a game communicate with the VR headset, and those have remained pretty consistent and backwards compatible if not totally unchanged over the years.

Yep, although to address a few things about that from earlier posts, FDev have always been more than a little half-hearted in their implementation.
They added their support for Oculus' prototype runtime software for the Rift DK1, and then DK2 during alpha, but were not exactly on the ball keeping this up-to-date, seemingly not wanting to put down any effort on chasing a moving target, and when both Oculus and Valve got their final release software going, and consumer hardware launched, months went by before each got implemented. (EDIT: As far as I recall, there were periods during alpha and beta, where the game would only work with a rolled-back version of the Oculus runtime, and the game launched with OpenVR support (finally, after it having long been eagerly requested during beta), but not the final Oculus drives, whose support came later -- I may be off on the specifics.)

Still today, E:D does not render canted views for headsets that request them, despite this having been in the OpenVR specs for ages, and the only difference in what goes between the VR runtime and the application, is a pair of values in the exchanged transformation matrices being non-zero. Heck, the openvr_api.dll (...being the interface the game uses to talk with the runtime), that is distributed with Elite, is from 2016 -- that library does not need to be updated, but this does provide some suggestion about how much they care about staying abreast. :7

...so I can't say I am without misgivings regarding FDevs commitment, but if it were against all odds to turn out such that they are after all removing the old support, for the purpose of (…after delaying, to get the main body of work out asap) putting down the arduous work of properly implementing things like compelling room-scale interactions, instead of another bare-bones jobbie, that would be an extremely pleasant surprise. :7

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Or else they'd hamstring themselves I'd think.

The problem is that if one do not think carefully about one's VR implementation from the get go, one may have to either make bad compromises in one's eventual retrofitting it, assuming one does, or be prepared to rip out previous hard work. :7
 
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As a console player I do understand the love for VR in ED. As I got to try it once on a rig a friend has, and it was glorious! They had personalized rig setup with switches for weapons and control systems. But if I recall ED didn't have VR support when it came out (as far as I can remember, so I might be wrong) and Odyssey isn't any different. It won't be from the start, more then likely. For all we know VR support is something they are working on, but they'd rather get Odyssey pushed out and cmdrs playing and not delay it till late 2021. After all they got to get Odyssey up and running before they can work on VR right? Getting Odyssey finished and do test servers for VR to see how it works and runs. Or else they'd hamstring themselves I'd think.
VR support has been in the game even before commercial headsets were available. I joined in the public beta in 2014 and never not played in VR using the Oculus devkit 2. So VR has always been supported over its 7 years of existence rightup until Odyssey.
I suspect they have been and are still working on VR in Odyssey right now, are sure it won't be done Q1 2021 but are not yet sure if they will ever get it to a quality point they feel comfortable to release. So it might still never come as well.

But we don't know. All we do know is that there will be no support for VR in any way, not even just cockpit, at launch and FD saying "Tough luck. But you can still play over there in the corner with the old stuff! Love ya! Bye!". That doesn't give me much hope.
 
I am one of the very few people in the world to have a (pre-production NOT FINAL) Pimax Vision 8kX unit, with its rich colors, wide FOV, and beautiful 4k per-eye panels. Showing people how clear and crisp Elite Dangerous Horizons was at the NYC Pimax roadshow was amazing for everyone, right next to the FA18C DCS World simulator.

Now it seems, only DCS World remains.

Why?

Because Frontier Developments, year after year, has shown the most abundant possible disregard for anything players ask for that is not strictly in line with their own egotistical 'vision' for a strictly single player experience, despite endless marketing claims to the contrary.

Would it really have been prohibitive to include the most basic VR thumbstick and teleport locomotion controls, perhaps with a transition screen while 'teleporting' to a simpit chair?

What sucks is not that 'spacelegs' or particular other features will not support VR. Personally, I never had any interest in these features, only in such things as Power Play going open-only.

What sucks is the continued absolute lack of commitment by FDev to ever make ED a product that deserves its position in the industry.

FDev cowardice and gross neglect at its worst.

Off to DCS World...
 
Should FDev put it's time into placating folks who see a single video months before a release and decide then and there, based on nothing more than supposition , to throw the toys out of the pram and stomp off in a huff casting insults to them as they go?
I know I wouldn't
 
I don't even know who you are, but what a typically stupid response on these forums, which also suck. Aside from FDev having ignored its customer base for years straight, we are talking about an announcement about what FDev won't do, that they easily could, that a large portion of players rely upon, more than six months from now.

It is hard to imagine more indefensibly irrational behavior, being more irrationally defended, by a obviously blindly fanatical ... fool .
 
Re: Eyesight - check these websites out:



Regarding the need or no need of lenses in VR, the opticians aren't required to understand how a VR headset works :) Maybe mention vergence-accomodation conflict to them, that might give them a clue. Your eyes converge on a virtual screen just centimeters from your face, and your eyes try to accomodate at far virtual object which is focused through the HMD lenses on a greater distance. I'm no optician though and only know this exists in VR. Some people might have problems with it, but I personally don't know anyone who has. Demoed VR to many friends and to family like crazy zealot that I am :p



Nausea - different people react differently. My wife can hop into Onward gameplay and shot baddies without a sweat with very very little time total in VR. I needed approx. 6 weeks of play to fully accustom to free locomotion and it was done using mainly Elite on a borrowed DK2... Now I can tumble in a flat spin in F14 Tomcat in DCS or downhill in a srv in Elite no problem at all.

Small minority of people supposedly never do accustom, but since 2016 vr devs found ways to minimise VR sickness (comfort blinders, teleporting, walking animations, rendering nose (yup)...). There are also people who can't play FPS games, one even posted in this thread that the head bobbing animation is disconcerting. Tell you what mate, I don't like it either and if there's an option to turn this down I turn it down because it's unnatural and desynchronised for me.

On 3dTV/movies... I used to love IMAX movies. It was 3d or bust for me for every premiere. But once I got VR, the 3d cinema effect lost its magic completely - it is even more inferior than you described... Sad, but that's progress for some. 3d cinema is ruined for me and I can't say I miss it much.

PS: sorry for subsequential posts but it was a wall'o'text otherwise.
Thanks for taking the time on this wonderful reply. I'm going to stick those two links into my future reading for sure. I wish I had someone I knew with a VR system near me to try. I would be a lot more interested if I could try it out.

The last 3d movies I went to were for the Hobbit. Went for the whole trilogy in one go, back to back. I left wishing I could of watched it without the 'sunglasses' tech they were using. Not actual sunglasses, but they did dull some of the vibrance from the film. Over all, I just didn't feel like they made the experience better. I would of enjoyed it all the same or a little more just seeing it normally on the big screen with my friends.
 
If it still supports head-tracking and an XBox controller in 2D, then there is no technical reason that it couldn't support VR. I'd be more than happy having my VR view and head-look and using a controller.

Honestly I'd take this any way. I really don't like using the motion controllers for most VR games, especially one where I'm using a HOTAS in VR. This would be a game most fitting for gloves if they ever make it to market. Not to mention I play in VR only in sim rig with motion control so the less fumbling around the better. Standing and walking around in real-life for a VR game is over rated and is mostly clunky anyway, so they would need to come up with a really good solution for this and not that teleportation crap.

I'm willing to wait for a good solution, but I want to be able to explore planets on foot in VR.
 
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