General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Ian Skippy]

For me it's a little more nuanced than that.

At a basic personal level its that people who yell "Trump is literally an Austrian painter with a bad moustache." but rush to defend a regime where actual concentration camps are still in employ on a massive scale because the Tangerine one is opposing them need to have a long hard word with themselves.

This extends out to corporations and celebrities (like disney or the NBA) who will proclaim how woke and progressive they are, but only when its safe and doesnt affect their profits but are more than happy to quickly roll over for a few more Yuan.

Corporations aren't people, and anyone who looks to corporations for moral or ethical guidance is just deluded. "In these trying times we are all in it together. Buy a Toyota." is cringe, but not relevant much to anything else. And yes, of course there are plenty of horrible regimes all over the world. What is happening with the Uyghurs is terrible. What is happening in Hong Kong is terrible. But that, too, has little to do with the issues we have in our own societies. Issues we are responsible for. Issues we can actually do something about.

No matter how desperately Leper Messiah tries to deflect by talking about literally anything else he can think of, institutional racism is a serious issue in our culture. The adult thing to do is to own up to it, admit fixing this has been long overdue, and then think constructively on what serious and viable solutions would look like.

 

[ianw]

So here in the UK Boris has asked the boffins to look at decreasing the social distance from 2 meters to 1 to try and help the hospitality sector. Apparently 2 meters doesn't work for many establishments economically but 1 is just about workable.

Primary schools have abandoned the idea of getting years 2 to 5 back for a few weeks before the summers hols.

The infection rate continue to drop but experts are cautioning we are opening up too quickly.

It will be 2 weeks this Saturday since the beach events - particularly the Durdle Door incident where 2 large groups got completely sardined to allow to helicopters to land. So we should start to see if/how that affected community transmission.

Likewise we now enter a rolling 2 week period to see if the demonstrations have any impact..

 

[askavir]

One of the few good things about the Vietnam War was that it confronted the US military head on with the problem- and it was proactive. Training on racial relations was mandatory in Basic. Repeated again for me in OTS.

That is actually an interesting point, as it sheds a bit of light on one of the current obstacles to end prejudice and discrimination: segregation. It's not the only obstacle, but IMO one of the bigger ones, perhaps the biggest one after income distribution.

In the army racism tends to pretty low, because there is no segregation. People around you, whites, blacks, asians, etc, they're just your squad mates. You eat with them, bunk, sleep with them, work with them, suffer with them, rely on them, live with them. There is no "us" and "them", everyone is your people. So just look at different skin color just the same way you look at different hair or eye colors: as nothing that actually matters, and we're all just the same regardless.

In civil society this is harder to achieve while we still have large groups of ethnic minorities living isolated in slums or guettos, which not only makes integration very hard, but it also promotes tribalism and carves divides between these people and the rest of the people, which in turn creates friction in the local communities and then fuels prejudice and discrimination. Obviously the income distribution problem plays a major role here.

One things gives me more hope for the future, driving by schools I can see the groups of kids nowadays are much more inclusive (there are also much more people of different ethnicities today than 30 years ago), but children today grow up from early ages surrounded by other children from different ethnicities, so they no longer see "a black kid", or "a white kid", they just see "Timmy". Like always, children are the future, and each new generation will be less prejudiced than the generation before.

That's why, even though sometimes it may not feel like it, discrimination and prejudice are lower than they ever were before at any point in time (at least in the west), and things will only get better in the future. Until then, we'll have to make due the best we can.

 

[askavir]

So here in the UK Boris has asked the boffins to look at decreasing the social distance from 2 meters to 1 to try and help the hospitality sector. Apparently 2 meters doesn't work for many establishments economically but 1 is just about workable.

Primary schools have abandoned the idea of getting years 2 to 5 back for a few weeks before the summers hols.

The infection rate continue to drop but experts are cautioning we are opening up too quickly.

It will be 2 weeks this Saturday since the beach events - particularly the Durdle Door incident where 2 large groups got completely sardined to allow to helicopters to land. So we should start to see if/how that affected community transmission.

Likewise we now enter a rolling 2 week period to see if the demonstrations have any impact..

Here in Portugal we're having a somewhat similar issue. The deconfinement rules are so confuse and full of exceptions and specificities that nobody knows for sure any more what they should or should not do (except for obvious things).

At least the severe cases and death so far haven't increased, in the end that's what matters. And measures are being re-evaluated every 2 weeks as well.

I also acknowledge that managing a massive nation-wide confinement and then a progressive deconfinement is a rather monumental task and it's normal that some mistakes are likely to be made.

 

[Ian Skippy]

So here in the UK Boris has asked the boffins to look at decreasing the social distance from 2 meters to 1 to try and help the hospitality sector. Apparently 2 meters doesn't work for many establishments economically but 1 is just about workable.

Primary schools have abandoned the idea of getting years 2 to 5 back for a few weeks before the summers hols.

The infection rate continue to drop but experts are cautioning we are opening up too quickly.

It will be 2 weeks this Saturday since the beach events - particularly the Durdle Door incident where 2 large groups got completely sardined to allow to helicopters to land. So we should start to see if/how that affected community transmission.

Likewise we now enter a rolling 2 week period to see if the demonstrations have any impact..

FWIW: we had a little incident with crowded beaches/parks three weeks ago as it combined 1) holidays, 2) fantastic weather, 3) easing up of measures. It was expected this would bump up the infection rates but in hindsigh the impact was not measurable and the decline holds steady.

By far the biggest thing is common sense and being reasonable. If you keep proper distance most of the time, wash your hands regularly and stay at home when you have symptoms we won't eradicate the virus but we won't see a sudden and massive explosion either. The important this is just to be sensible about it all. Some pics from the BLM protests in the Netherlands:

Spoiler

In two cases things became too crowded, but by and large people try to balance things to the best of their abilities. Finally, we should all be vigilant for cheap tricks. For example, see the exact same scene captured either with a zoom or wide-angle lens:

Spoiler

 

[Morbad]

The university my wife works for is really botching their plans to reopen on time. The administrators are essentially taking work, that those more qualified had already finished two months ago, and making it worse. On top of this, they are wasting what resources they have on obvious and costly gimmicks to boost enrollment, while taking no practical steps to ensure that classes will actually be able to be held. They still have almost the entire IT department on furlough...which is flatly insane when so much is going to have to be taught online. No one in charge seems to know anything about the actual situation on the ground, and when people try to tell them what's going on, they are dismissed. You can't socially distance in classes that are already way above the occupancy they should be. You can't easily give lectures while wearing a mask. You can't clean everything between classes if schedules are packed. You can't allow a cleaning company to disinfect biology labs because it will destroy or contaminate samples and cultures.

They are setting themselves up for a disaster next semester and everyone, except the ones with the power to do something about, it can see it. Truly a microcosm of Byzantine bureaucracy.

One things gives me more hope for the future, driving by schools I can see the groups of kids nowadays are much more inclusive (there are also much more people of different ethnicities today than 30 years ago), but children today grow up from early ages surrounded by other children from different ethnicities, so they no longer see "a black kid", they just see "Timmy". Like always, children are the future, and each new generation will be less prejudiced than the generation before.

That's why, even though sometimes it may not feel like it, discrimination and prejudice are lower than they ever were before at any point in time (at least in the west), and things will only get better in the future. Until then, we'll have to make due the best we can.

Prejudice is something that's taught. Even when I was child in school 30 years ago, my peers and I all learned and played together, no matter where we came from. Most of us were blind to skin color, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and other arbitrary excuses for bias and bigotry. Fast forward to now, and I'd be surprised if any of these people have been able to remain completely unbiased, at least at a subconscious level, due to the influence of a biased society and culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

So impossible to imaging yet true?

Sorry but you're going on ignore as you just deny basic facts.

If you want to use Kelly Thomas as an example of an exception to strongly held perceptions, that's one thing, but to use him to deny that these perceptions exist, or even to argue that the perception I was describing is unfounded, you'd be mistaken.

Somehow, you took my statement to mean "this has never and could never happen to a white individual", which is, to be frank, not an interpretation I could have imagined as coming from a native English speaker. Clearly, it's not actually impossible, as you have done it, but the degree of misinterpretation was shocking.

Evidently I'm articulating myself well enough to be understood by most, even if they don't agree, so I do not believe I am to blame for your lack of reading comprehension.

 

[ianw]

FWIW: we had a little incident with crowded beaches/parks three weeks ago as it combined 1) holidays, 2) fantastic weather, 3) easing up of measures. It was expected this would bump up the infection rates but in hindsigh the impact was not measurable and the decline holds steady.

By far the biggest thing is common sense and being reasonable. If you keep proper distance most of the time, wash your hands regularly and stay at home when you have symptoms we won't eradicate the virus but we won't see a sudden and massive explosion either. The important this is just to be sensible about it all. Some pics from the BLM protests in the Netherlands:

Spoiler

In two cases things became too crowded, but by and large people try to balance things to the best of their abilities. Finally, we should all be vigilant for cheap tricks. For example, see the exact same scene captured either with a zoom or wide-angle lens:

Spoiler

Yes - we were chatting about this on our weekly online booze up last week.

It's clear that some publications will use the most crowded looking pic they can find. One of our lot visited a beach - he's been very pro opening things up from the start but that said I think he does follow the distancing rules and other precautions. He made the point that people being half naked tend to be more wary of their personal space than they would when they're clothed anyway - which seems reasonable.

I've seen mixed pics of the demos here - some do look like they are staying apart any many have been masked - far more than I see out shopping. The main concern is when it all goes sideways which it almost inevitably does.

Just takes one over enthusiastic protester or copper to spark things up - people (police and public) behave very differently in crowds and it can get out of hand very quickly. And that's before you factor in the smaller numbers that actively try and spark things off.

As you say - the best thing for all is to try and maintain distance, use masks where needed and avoid being around the same people for too long in enclosed spaces. And of course hand washing..

 

[askavir]

Prejudice is something that's taught. Even when I was child in school 30 years ago, my peers and I all learned and played together, no matter where we came from. Most of us were blind to skin color, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and other arbitrary excuses for bias and bigotry. Fast forward to now, and I'd be surprised if any of these people have been able to remain completely unbiased, at least at a subconscious level, due to the influence of a biased society and culture.

Even if the new generation of children is still not completely unbiased, they clearly are less biased than the generations before. The next generation will likely be even less biased, until there will be no bias at all.

If we look at our history the positive signs are quite clear: there never was at any point in time less prejudice than nowadays, and there isn't any sign that that positive tendency will change or even decelerate. The mere fact that the murder of George Floyd sparked a massive multi-continent uproar by itself demonstrates it. Do you think this outrage would happen on the same scale 30 years ago?

 

[Ralph Vargr]

The university my wife works for is really botching their plans to reopen on time. The administrators are essentially taking work, that those more qualified had already finished two months ago, and making it worse. On top of this, they are wasting what resources they have on obvious and costly gimmicks to boost enrollment, while taking no practical steps to ensure that classes will actually be able to be held. They still have almost the entire IT department on furlough...which is flatly insane when so much is going to have to be taught online. No one in charge seems to know anything about the actual situation on the ground, and when people try to tell them what's going on, they are dismissed. You can't socially distance in classes that are already way above the occupancy they should be. You can't easily give lectures while wearing a mask. You can't clean everything between classes if schedules are packed. You can't allow a cleaning company to disinfect biology labs because it will destroy or contaminate samples and cultures.

They are setting themselves up for a disaster next semester and everyone, except the ones with the power to do something about, it can see it. Truly a microcosm of Byzantine bureaucracy.

I don't want to go back to work for the deranged megalomaniacs/egomaniacs running my old college. They are doing it worse than you describe. This is their chance to mould the schools into the way they want them- not to educate.

 

[Morbad]

Do you think this outrage would happen on the same scale 30 years ago?

In the US it happened on similar or greater scale 60 years ago during the civil rights movement.

Personally, I've been elated at how rapidly current discontent has spread and how significant the movement for change has become. I was expecting George Floyd to be the impetus for a local protest and a few token editorials decrying systemic racism, then just as quickly fade into the background without inspiring much of any actual change. However, I still fear, that like the post-Civil War Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement of a century later, that current changes will be left similarly unfinished, or be substantially reverted by those who benefited from the prior status quo.

I can't see progress as a given. History tells me that it's fragile, something to be fought for and nurtured, not something to take for granted.

I don't want to go back to work for the deranged megalomaniacs/egomaniacs running my old college. They are doing it worse than you describe. This is their chance to mould the schools into the way they want them- not to educate.

Well, in this case, I'm not sure they're even trying to molding anything...the proposal I read feels like someone's senile old grandparents discovered Kickstarter and decided to back every scam product even tangentially related to education.

 

[lysan]

Lysan, the 'defund the police' movement is not about removing police. That is what fox news wants you to be scared about, but its not true. What it is about is to reduce funding to the police, limit the scope of their dljob description and move those responsibilities elsewhere.

For example, a lot of issues are caused by mental illness, addiction and the likes. Most countries tackle those issues directly, instead of militarizing the police and letting them figure it out. So the idea is to maybe not spend a lot of money on creating an ever more powerful police force, but instead invest that money in mental healthcare and such. This, btw, has also been requested by many cops themselves for decades.

It isn't about scary black anarchists coming for you. It's about implementing solutions the rest of the modern world already uses, instead of just continually using more and more force. Not every problem is a nail, and you can't fix this by buying bigger and bigger hammers. So defend Big Hammer, and give some of that to screwdrivers and ductape.

I'm not scared of black anarchists, it's the white ones i'm concerned about, however here i'm good, no one will make it 10 foot into my homestead before they become fertilizer. reducing the whole government would be great.

 

[askavir]

Personally, I've been elated at how rapidly current discontent has spread and how significant the movement for change has become. I was expecting George Floyd to be the impetus for a local protest and a few token editorials decrying systemic racism, then just as quickly fade into the background without inspiring much of any actual change.

Oh my, is that a smile I'm seeing from here?

However, I still fear, that like the post-Civil War Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement of a century later, that current changes will be left similarly unfinished, or be substantially reverted by those who benefited from the prior status quo.

And it probably will still be unfinished. But that is unfortunately how any big changes in society work, Step by step, taking time, sometimes generations, sometimes many of those. It is unfair as it will mean it won't be fast enough for many, but any change that actually takes root and prevails will always take time.

I can't see progress as a given. History tells me that it's fragile, something to be fought for and nurtured, not something to take for granted.

Agreed.

 

[Factabulous]

If we look at our history the positive signs are quite clear: there never was at any point in time less prejudice than nowadays, and there isn't any sign that that positive tendency will change or even decelerate. The mere fact that the murder of George Floyd sparked a massive multi-continent uproar by itself demonstrates it. Do you think this outrage would happen on the same scale 30 years ago?

I think many agree with you - but why is this? In the last few years we have become more connected and more able to see other views - international travel & tourism / social media (for all its bad aspects), even international companies helping mix views and show viewpoints.

But recently we have this virus, that stops travel & makes us stay local. Plus we have many governments calling for local people to be put first and 'others' to be excluded. I think we take for granted this drift towards equality at our peril.

 

[metatheurgist]

In the US it happened on similar or greater scale 60 years ago during the civil rights movement.

Personally, I've been elated at how rapidly current discontent has spread and how significant the movement for change has become. I was expecting George Floyd to be the impetus for a local protest and a few token editorials decrying systemic racism, then just as quickly fade into the background without inspiring much of any actual change. However, I still fear, that like the post-Civil War Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement of a century later, that current changes will be left similarly unfinished, or be substantially reverted by those who benefited from the prior status quo.

Well, ironically better leadership would probably have already done that...so thank you Mr Oompa Loompa.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Back to zero active cases. Global cases continue to rise, notably in the anti-science nations.

Protest in favour of the BLM movement was held yesterday in our capital opposite the US embassy. The number of people violated the Public Health Ordinance now in effect for the pandemic. So the Police Commisioner himself went down, chatted with the crowd, got them to space apart, and then joined the protest too.

Cannot understand the mechanics of the sudden psychological shift worldwide over the last two weeks. The problem was well established since forever. But racism and its proponents are in retreat. What took so long?

Covid 19 is now rampaging through the Red States, where the impact will hopefully be lessened by lower population density, but India and Brazil will have no such luck.

Things are so unpredictable, who knows what will happen next week?

Can I get back to biochem research on anti ageing? There's a vitamin we should be taking.

 

[askavir]

I think many agree with you - but why is this? In the last few years we have become more connected and more able to see other views - international travel & tourism / social media (for all its bad aspects), even international companies helping mix views and show viewpoints.

I completely agree. I personally find there's nothing as eye and mind-opening as travelling. Seeing different cultures, being among different people with different customs, listening to the way they see the world, what they value most and least, and how they look at life, seeing their perspectives. Breaking the barriers between "us and them", and realizing that borders are just imaginary lines we created ourselves. Mainstream travel and the internet certainly played a decisive role.

Travelling is the only thing that you both spend money and become richer at the same time. It's the best way to fight the inevitable tunnel vision that we are prone to develop when we just stick to our own backyard listening to the same voices of always.

But recently we have this virus, that stops travel & makes us stay local. Plus we have many governments calling for local people to be put first and 'others' to be excluded. I think we take for granted this drift towards equality at our peril.

True, and even worse we've seen countries stealing each other's medical supplies, and resorting to downright state piracy, hijacking foreign planes to steal ventilators in-transit. Disgusting.

Even the notion of "help your local shops and local commerce", if you think of it, is rooted in tribalism. Why is the guy from the shop down the street more important than the guy from the other shop in the other town, or from some other shop in a different country? "Help local commerce" is just another form of nationalism, of aknowledging that people inside out imaginary lines are somehow worth more than people outside our imaginary lines. We can't be globalists and nationalists at the same time.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Oh look! We got mentioned in an article! Yeah... it's just in Huffpo... oh well.

'S**thole' Countries Have Handled The Coronavirus Better Than The United States

Developing countries listened to experts, locked down and prevented thousands of deaths. Why doesn’t the West want to admit it?

www.huffpost.com

Why is New Zealand being recognised more than all the other places that also succeeded? (Is is because Jacinta Ardern is charismatic? Because we would take her as Prime Minister here any day. )

Is it because of the population colour? I'm beginning to suspect so.

 

[Factabulous]

Oh look! We got mentioned in an article! Yeah... it's just in Huffpo... oh well.

'S**thole' Countries Have Handled The Coronavirus Better Than The United States

Developing countries listened to experts, locked down and prevented thousands of deaths. Why doesn’t the West want to admit it?

www.huffpost.com

Why is New Zealand being recognised more than all the other places that also succeeded? (Is is because Jacinta Ardern is charismatic? Because we would take her as Prime Minister here any day. )

Is it because of the population colour? I'm beginning to suspect so.

Leader who's made a larger impact, economy size, population size, country size. Press presence maybe. Probably population colour.Can you point us at the local news about virus-free celebrations? Would be interested to see how it's being reported.

 

[ianw]

Oh look! We got mentioned in an article! Yeah... it's just in Huffpo... oh well.

'S**thole' Countries Have Handled The Coronavirus Better Than The United States

Developing countries listened to experts, locked down and prevented thousands of deaths. Why doesn’t the West want to admit it?

www.huffpost.com

Why is New Zealand being recognised more than all the other places that also succeeded? (Is is because Jacinta Ardern is charismatic? Because we would take her as Prime Minister here any day. )

Is it because of the population colour? I'm beginning to suspect so.

I wasn't expecting that article headline

Jacinta does seem to be the international media darling du jour lately.

 

[askavir]

Oh look! We got mentioned in an article! Yeah... it's just in Huffpo... oh well.

'S**thole' Countries Have Handled The Coronavirus Better Than The United States

Developing countries listened to experts, locked down and prevented thousands of deaths. Why doesn’t the West want to admit it?

www.huffpost.com

Why is New Zealand being recognised more than all the other places that also succeeded? (Is is because Jacinta Ardern is charismatic? Because we would take her as Prime Minister here any day. )

Is it because of the population colour? I'm beginning to suspect so.

I think is has more to do with the size of New Zealand.

A tiny island becoming free of the virus is great news indeed for all who live there, but not really that impressive when compared to a very large landmass with 5 million inhabbitants (*)

Please mind that I'm not taking a jab at small countries, in fact I plan to escape from Portugal and go live on an island myself if I live enough to retire (the retirement age keeps increasing fast over here due to our eternal economic problems, it's now 66 years and 4 months, estimated to be at 69 years and a tad by the time I can retire myself with "full" pension). I was just trying to find a reason why NZ gets the most attention.

Regarding Jacinta Ardern, get in line! We want her here too.

(*) edit: turns out Trinidad has a much bigger population than I thought, and actually has much larger population density than NZ, so it's actually much more impressive.