VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

[Dooguk]

I've modded my Skyrim to the gills so I'm lucky to get frame rates that are halfway decent and dropped frames are pretty much a given

Frontier did really well when they added the horizon view lock (whatever it's called) to the SRV. Made it very comfortable to drive over bumpy planets.

 

[Dooguk]

Mac users are "excluded" from just about every game .

You are opening up old wounds

 

[VR Murgle]

Like you say, after steps like that have been take, it's all about accustomisation. But designers will still want to give newer players (and the '20%' who never get over nausea) a ramped experience to help them get there (& to help them play before they've got to the promised 'VR Legs' land ).

Which was kinda the point I was trying to make

Motion controllers provide some of the most recognised solutions for nausea, so I don't get how that follows

A limited VR implementation might no help with nausea but it will prevent the whole blind firing around corners problem

It also doesn't really tackle the 'industry standard' argument.

Not caring too much about the "industry standards" as far as I'm concerned motion controllers are an obstacle to mass adoption.

It does however adress the fact that flying a space ship with motion controllers instead of a HOTAS is not an improvement.

 

[ubedead]

Its been said a lot here already, but my bet for why they wont be implementing VR for Odyssey at launch is due to how much dev work would need to be done, and what percent of the playerbase has VR, as well as the playability limitations of it.

It was probably fairly simple to add VR to the current "seated only" game since the camera does not have to move independent of the ship. Its fairly simple. Head movement for looking, and then a joystick + throttle for controls (or a keyboard + mouse). Its not fundamentally different from the main game, the biggest change is how the camera moves.

Now compare this to something like the new Half Life game. Complex motion controls, movement systems, inventory management, etc, all built from the ground up for VR. Now imagine trying to play this without VR. It wont work.

Its probably then that Fdev is trying to save time, and provide a better overall experience by building a game that will work for the largest segment of the playerbase (and potential future playerbase) by building it for the non-VR users. Anyone who has a VR setup can play without VR if they choose. It does not work the other way around. It would be extremely clunky to play something designed for VR without it, int the same way that a game poorly adapted to VR isnt fantastic to play.

We probably will see VR show up in the future. It wasnt a launch feature of the game, so it makes sense that they would take their time to develop something good here too.

The only issue with this is the fact that ED is a multiplayer game.That would force all VR player to only play SOLO mode until FDEV deams it necessary to add VR to the game.

 

[Dooguk]

Scrub that.

 

[VR Murgle]

Now that is another thing that may have to be dropped, solo mode. Or as I suggested, the shoot'em up is separate from the main game. Like CQC.

I don't follow, why would they need to drop Solo?

 

[Dooguk]

I don't follow, why would they need to drop Solo?

Sorry brain fart.

 

[Arioch]

I play RDR2 in first person. I cannot imagine lasting for one minute in VR when Arthur gets on and off his horse.

I was quite disappointed the first time I got on/off my horse in SkyrimVR - it was a brief fade-to-black transition.

The “VR Enhancements” mod for Subnautica gives you the option of playing the forced animated transitions but it leaves your viewpoint free while your virtual body does the move - sometimes it’s like climbing ladders while looking right over your shoulder, but I think it’s a good solution.

 

[Dooguk]

I was quite disappointed the first time I got on/off my horse in SkyrimVR - it was a brief fade-to-black transition.

The “VR Enhancements” mod for Subnautica gives you the option of playing the forced animated transitions but it leaves your viewpoint free while your virtual body does the move - sometimes it’s like climbing ladders while looking right over your shoulder, but I think it’s a good solution.

See, there are always ways around things if you are willing to try.

 

[dumbo]

Question on this point. Do we really need a switch? At least in my case when I used Oculus CV and now HP Reverb, there is always a 2D pancake screen running simultaneously with VR. So technically we would not need to switch. 2D is always there. Would be a matter to see if the quality settings of that 2D auxiliary screen can be customized etc.

As far as I remember, the "mirror" screen is the view of the ?left? eye. So it would be a bit distorted and the view wouldn't entirely line-up with 'forwards'? (I seem to remember various shader effects would also not work properly)

The ships were all modelled in 3D so that was no problem, so if the avatar is modelled in 3D and is mapped and sent across the network as such, why should this be an issue (i know it's a big if, and I know little about this stuff).

Your ship is mapped to a single point in space e.g. 0,0,0. It has a direction and a bunch of constants/variables associated with it, but for the most part it is a fixed body (it doesn't bend/warp), so it's "just" tracking the motion of that single point.

In non-VR an avatar is pretty similar. It's based on a single point in space. A client deduces where the arms/legs are supposed to be, given current/past actions, the terrain and the avatars movements using a bunch of rules (IK) and canned animations.

In VR, it gets far more complicated. An avatar is based on ~3 points (head+left hand+right hand), trying to deduce the position of the skeleton and the current motion is significantly more intensive/problematic/buggy. (every client would need to derive the skeleton position for every frame - so quite a bit of additional data would need to be sent and processed, on top of the load generated by the rest of the game).

It's probably not an insurmountable problem, other games do this - but EDs networking is unusual, and this doesn't feel like a particularly trivial thing to do. And then there's interacting with the environment (where a lot of players might expect something HL:Alyx-style).

 

[Dooguk]

As far as I remember, the "mirror" screen is the view of the ?left? eye. So it would be a bit distorted and the view wouldn't entirely line-up with 'forwards'? (I seem to remember various shader effects would also not work properly)



Your ship is mapped to a single point in space e.g. 0,0,0. It has a direction and a bunch of constants/variables associated with it, but for the most part it is a fixed body (it doesn't bend/warp), so it's "just" tracking the motion of that single point.

In non-VR an avatar is pretty similar. It's based on a single point in space. A client deduces where the arms/legs are supposed to be, given current/past actions, the terrain and the avatars movements using a bunch of rules (IK) and canned animations.

In VR, it gets far more complicated. An avatar is based on ~3 points (head+left hand+right hand), trying to deduce the position of the skeleton and the current motion is significantly more intensive/problematic/buggy. (every client would need to derive the skeleton position for every frame - so quite a bit of additional data would need to be sent and processed, on top of the load generated by the rest of the game).

It's probably not an insurmountable problem, other games do this - but EDs networking is unusual, and this doesn't feel like a particularly trivial thing to do. And then there's interacting with the environment (where a lot of players might expect something HL:Alyx-style).

But aren't there Dev kits for all this stuff to make the job easier?

 

[CaptainPugwash]

As far as I remember, the "mirror" screen is the view of the ?left? eye. So it would be a bit distorted and the view wouldn't entirely line-up with 'forwards'? (I seem to remember various shader effects would also not work properly)



Your ship is mapped to a single point in space e.g. 0,0,0. It has a direction and a bunch of constants/variables associated with it, but for the most part it is a fixed body (it doesn't bend/warp), so it's "just" tracking the motion of that single point.

In non-VR an avatar is pretty similar. It's based on a single point in space. A client deduces where the arms/legs are supposed to be, given current/past actions, the terrain and the avatars movements using a bunch of rules (IK) and canned animations.

In VR, it gets far more complicated. An avatar is based on ~3 points (head+left hand+right hand), trying to deduce the position of the skeleton and the current motion is significantly more intensive/problematic/buggy. (every client would need to derive the skeleton position for every frame - so quite a bit of additional data would need to be sent and processed, on top of the load generated by the rest of the game).

It's probably not an insurmountable problem, other games do this - but EDs networking is unusual, and this doesn't feel like a particularly trivial thing to do. And then there's interacting with the environment (where a lot of players might expect something HL:Alyx-style).

Greg could handle it - 2 weeks max

 

[Dooguk]

I bet Greg has come over a bit poorly and has gone home to self isolate for 14 days.

 

[VR Golgot]

Which was kinda the point I was trying to make

Yeah I'm still not clear on what point you're trying to make

I'm saying: VR devs use various techniques to avoid nausea now, because it means more players can play their game.

What are you saying is controversial or errant there? (Genuine question!)

A limited VR implementation might no help with nausea but it will prevent the whole blind firing around corners problem

Sure, but on a scale of importance I'd imagine that the nausea issue would come first.

(I've mentioned previously that FDev could easily dump all or most concerns about PvP parity, especially if doing an MVP job on it meant the flatscreen majority were OP due to K/M / character movement speeds etc. It's just an area they may well want to tackle to do the job right.)

Not caring too much about the "industry standards" as far as I'm concerned motion controllers are an obstacle to mass adoption.

That's your prerogative, but it doesn't change what the market currently expects for FPS / RPGs / Walking Sims etc

It does however adress the fact that flying a space ship with motion controllers instead of a HOTAS is not an improvement.

How does it impact on that? If they introduce motion controllers that doesn't mean you have to fly with motion controllers. (Or even infer that you'd be able to. Virtual cockpits would be a ton more work).

ED is super controller-agnostic. Fly your way. Walk your way . With whatever devices they support.

 

[govny]

I could have sworn they fixed that rotating solar flare bug once. It returned after another patch. Anybody else remember this?

you remember wrong
they where never patched because they are not a bug. That effect it is a common problem in every VR game.

 

[dumbo]

I would imagine we are a good year off at least from psvr2. Possibly more. However the games reveal today could shed some more light on how soon they want to upgrade VR.

Yep. I think Sony will want to avoid the situation where the PS5 costs £400, the XSX costs £400, but the 'full PS5' costs £700 as you need to add PSVR2. So it feels like a 2022+ release might be correct? But, maybe FDev would beta a VR upgrade on PC ahead of the PSVR2 launch? /shrug

But aren't there Dev kits for all this stuff to make the job easier?

Yes. AFAIK it is 'relatively' easy to create a VR tech demo with skeletal animation in UE3D/unreal. However that's probably not the same as trying to integrate such a feature into an already-built title that uses a custom engine /shrug.

 

[VR Murgle]

Yeah I'm still not clear on what point you're trying to make

I'm saying: VR devs use various techniques to avoid nausea now, because it means more players can play their game.

My point is there are ways to reduce the chance of motion sickness, beyond that there's little more anyone can do and despite these measures some people will still get nauseous.

If new VR users get sick despite the measures taken they'll either have to "get over it" or give up. Now Frontier could start the Odyssey VR experience with some tips to try to ensure everyone get the best experience but how many do you think would stick around for those if they've just gotten a new headset and are eager to try it?

edit: In other words: FD need to do what they can to mitigate the problem after that it's out of their hands and up to the individual. Anyone serious about trying VR will find a way the others wouldn't stick around no matter what you did.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

That settles it then. I'm going to dig out my old Atari joystick. It'll be like Daley Thompson's Decathlon all over again.

That thing still working? I must have killed a few quickshot 2's playing combat school on the C64.

Maybe 'Greg' left the company and didn't write any documentation

Wouldn't surprise me, fortunately there are a few good examples on github for player derived VR mods for other games:

Releases · Nibre/MotherVR

This Mod brings current generation VR support to the game Alien: Isolation - Nibre/MotherVR

github.com

I know @[VR] Golgot said those can nausea inducing, but if thy show the API hooks and calls, it's be a starting point.

I can't see them allowing Odyssey content to creep into horizons: it doesn't make commercial sense and they have a history for this as well i.e. the planets and rocks in the base game bear no resemblance to those in horizons.

There was a lot trickled down, just look at the patchnotes for anything post horizons, there is 1.5 showed the trickle down from 2.0, 1.6 = 2.1 etc.
Elite: Dangerous 1.6

Elite: Dangerous Blog | All the dirt on 1.6

Elite: Dangerous Blog - News and events from the Elite Dangerous galaxy - Details on the Elite: Dangerous 1.6 release

www.elite-dangerous-blog.co.uk

Spoiler

Galaxy map

• Named bookmarks. Select a system and pick a name.
• Filter for political states of systems. War, Boom, Bust etc.

Visual changes

• Visual effects for weapons fire now scale with the class of weapon. Bigger gun = bigger flash.
• Improved graphical fidelity of asteroids in rocky and icy rings.

More weapons in larger classes

• Large multi-cannon (Class 3).
• Huge multi-cannon (Class 4).
• Huge beam laser (Class 4), which fires four beams in rapid cycle.
• Huge pulse-laser (Class 4).

Missiles

• Missiles are getting a small increase in shield damage and splash damage (which damages modules and hard-points).
• Missiles do not penetrate hull, so unless you target Power Generator, they will disable a ship rather than destroy it.
• Missile guidance has been improved.

NPC changes

• Improvements to skill level.
• Security ramming fixed.
• "Roll of death" fixed.
• Higher security systems now have stronger security response.
• NPCs can use Engineers modified weapons.
• NPCs will no longer keep approaching you about a mission.

Missions

• Missions are now affected by a system’s political state. i.e. war would generate weapons smuggling and assassination missions.
• Completing missions will build reputation with minor factions and will introduce you to higher people with that faction.
• Minor factions will now be represented by individuals with avatars.
• Pilot federation rank will determine who you deal with in a faction and how they behave towards you. Your reputation also influences who you deal with.
• Navy missions for Federation and Empire are being overhauled.
• Your reputation with a faction will be visible on the mission board.
• Criminal factions will offer more illegal missions than other factions, but all factions will offer some illegal missions.
• Difficulty and rewards for missions are affected by the CMDR’s rank. New players won’t be asked to assassinate an Elite Anaconda.
• Mission rewards won’t just be credits. In Horizons, you may receive materials needed for Engineer modifications. Other rewards are not yet revealed.
• Missions follow a new set of templates for 1.6/2.1 with branching and multi-part missions. This affects Naval Ascension missions as well.
• Mission branches will affect rewards. Mission timers may change on different mission branches and time may affect reward.
• A new rank of "cordial" has been added between Neutral and Friendly for factions.
• Missions may be given out in space by a faction representative.
• Mission brief will list any equipment required, such as interdictor or scanner.

Exploration

• Ships can now scan Nav beacons to get system map without a discovery scanner.
• Exploration data obtained in this way from Nav beacons cannot be sold.
• Unidentified Signal Sources are being changed.
• Nav beacons contact information on locations of salvage and other signal sources to assist missions.
• There is a new approach mechanic for Points of Interest.

Station outfitting

• A more graphical tiered interface.
• Statistics on each module.

Communications

• Stations now have a traffic controller who hails incoming ships.
• Each commander is addressed uniquely by the ship manufacturer and first three letters of their CMDR name. e.g. "Lakon Alpha Romeo India you have permission to dock"
• Hostile commanders will be warned that they will be fired upon.
• The voices used by stations vary around the galaxy.
• The communications inbox is used more. Mission related messages will appear in your inbox in super-cruise as well as normal space.
• New commanders will be given a welcome mission in their inbox. This is optional.

Small ships

• Thruster upgrades for Class 2 and 3 thrusters.
• This makes smaller ships faster.
• These will cost "in the low millions".

Mining

• Ice rings can now be mined.
• There will be ice mining missions.
• Ice rings contain new materials – some of which will be needed for Engineers

We need to find 'Greg' and ask him what is up with VR.

I can sense memes and breaking news coming.

I hadn't thought on breaking news for this, but now you mention it...

Referring to him as 'a guy called greg' makes it sound like just some random dude that someone knew, as opposed to saying 'but then Greg in our developement team.....'

I was worried I'd got the name wrong so had to retrace my steps and look for the quote. The phrasing also tickled me so that's why I've been referring to him as "a guy called Greg".

Who thinks Frontier are waiting for PSVR2 before committing to VR in E?

No need, they already committed to PSVR1 on PS4, and we seen how spectacular that was; oh wait....

I bet Greg has come over a bit poorly and has gone home to self isolate for 14 days.

Seeing as I'm such a benevolent dictator, he can have the 14 days off, and another 14 after that, and he'd still have 6+ months to repeat what he previously did in a day.

 

[VR Golgot]

My point is there are ways to reduce the chance of motion sickness, beyond that there's little more anyone can do and despite these measures some people will still get nauseous.

If new VR users get sick despite the measures taken they'll either have to "get over it" or give up. Now Frontier could strat the Odyssey VR experience with some tips to try to ensure everyone get the best experience but how many do you think would stick around for those if they've just gotten a new headset and are eager to try it?

Yes there are ways, and you are arguing against some of the most standard ones being deployed . (Because you think FDev should MVP it and only support existing control schemes).

I'm just going to annoy you and repeat: The balance of probability suggests FDev would follow industry norms, and go for as many nausea reduction techniques as they can accommodate. (While also accommodating the most popular character control systems featured in the top selling games. Which happen to be the same things, and feature motion controllers )

I mean, they could go for HMD-relative with a console controller. But it would be super clunky and antiquated. And get panned

 

[VR Golgot]

I know @[VR] Golgot said those can nausea inducing, but if thy show the API hooks and calls, it's be a starting point.

Hey, if worst comes to the worst, I'm totally up for [EDIT] someone modding in VR support in the interim. (Even asked the CMs if they'd support solo mode modding where possible).

I don't get nausea myself any more, and it'd be better than nowt

(It's just for an official release that I'm saying a ton more sugar is required )