VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

Great premise, great list :)
Thank you.

I think any hopes of 4th level are pipe dreams, 1st level would be a bit of a clunky fudge and wouldn't cut it with me, 2nd level is what I think is the sweetspot of what we can reasonably expect frontier to do and is what I "want" and demand, although I can see benefit in and would really appreciate 3rd level, although I neither need nor demand it.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
... but the point stands the evidence from ~6400 users is more valid ...

Nah your point about that Youtube poll still does not stand at all I am afraid. Even the Literary Digest guys had more info about the biases of their "sample" than that Youtube poll mate.

Look, I sympathize with your "cause". I even support it. My HP Reverb is definitely going to miss Odyssey in VR and I am all for FDEV implementing it. But that poll I am afraid is only useful at making some noise (which can be useful in its own right) and completely unreliable for pretty much anything else. You do not really need it to pass across other key VR points here.
 
Thank you.

I think any hopes of 4th level are pipe dreams, 1st level would be a bit of a clunky fudge and wouldn't cut it with me, 2nd level is what I think is the sweetspot of what we can reasonably expect frontier to do and is what I "want" and demand, although I can see benefit in and would really appreciate 3rd level, although I neither need nor demand it.


I still suspect 'level 2' wouldn't cut it for an official launch. It would just put them so far off kilter with what the market's providing elsewhere. I think they'd have to at least hit 'level 3' for that.

But it'll be interesting to see if we can get a less-official variant of 1 or 2. And then hopefully see them spurred on to an official release by a decent Odyssey launch.

Seems like the most pragmatic 'dream scenario' right now.
 

No polls is the accurate truth. Trumps 2016 presidential campaign is a prime example. But its the best we have but can be considered mere guesses.
But honestly, do you think that 20% (+/-) are VR users of ED's playerbase to be too high or too low? ED was a game marketed as a VR game built from the ground up, sold on a VR plaform store. It could easily be more than 20%.

Also, fun fact - the hardware survey we can submit from the launcher does not explicitly show VR gear. You have to do string searches for magic strings like "Rift" or "Vive". My Rift is listed under "virtual devices" merely as "rift" together with USB hubs and other knick knack.
 
Nah your point about that Youtube poll still does not stand at all I am afraid. Even the Literary Digest guys had more info about the biases of their "sample" than that Youtube poll mate.

Look, I sympathize with your "cause". I even support it. My HP Reverb is definitely going to miss Odyssey in VR and I am all for FDEV implementing it. But that poll I am afraid is only useful at making some noise (which can be useful in its own right) and completely unreliable for pretty much anything else. You do not really need it to pass across other key VR points here.

Then please try not to derail the thread, mr. moderator. Remember that you wear a Frontier tag - I could become confused about your independence. This has been a problem earlier where it ended up with you lot posting as neutral users if the content was not moderation related.
 
If you don't take 6400+ (as of today) opinions in a poll as being reasonably indicative of player composition and a more valid source of data than Zorvan arbitrarily reducing M
if you don't know Inferential statistical analysis why don't you simply shut up.
it doesn't matter the number of people in the sample, what matters is if the sample is representative of the population and I would say in this case it isn't.
If you let people partecipate freerly in a poll, it is obvious that the ones more involved in that argument will be also more interested into partecipating and so the result will be heavely unbalanced towards the result people are more involved into.
 
I think with regards to our expectations/demands for VR in Odessy, we need to define what is a must-have versus what would-be-nice. These would be weighted differently for different individuals, but the expectations can be defined into "levels" of VR implementation, and each subsequent level would inherit the previous level's functionality. As such each subsiquent level will satisfy more of the VR playerbase.

1st Level - Pilots Seat only VR in Odessy

This would be the bare minimum VR approach for Odessy, and would essentially leave us with the same VR functionality, but be able to fly or drive under those coloured skies, this would allow VR Horizons players to continue as is, but gain access to the skies, and some Odessy content. There will be things like "new engineers" and "Sphere of Combat" from the release that could be partaken of in a ship / SLF / SRV and thus done in 1st level VR.

Where this gets clouded is what happens for on foot / Space Legs* content for VR level 1 players?
  • Is this Space Legs* content disabled, like the exit SRV menu button greyed out when in VR?
  • Is this Space Legs* content accessed by transitioning to flat screen, like click exit SRV brings up a black VR screen with a message "remove headset and press [BUTTON] to continue on foot"
  • Is this Space Legs* content accessed by a virtual 2d screen rendered inside the headset?
2nd Level - WASD/ Gamepad Walking VR in Odessy

This level would "inherit" the flying and driving in VR from the first level, but would add to it by allowing the player to take to their feet while still in VR and have VR headlook while on foot. The game remains a "seated VR experience" and as such does not include use of hand controllers to track the players hands, as such this would be a wasd / gamepad control scheme, with things like [PRESS E or BUTTON 2 to plant charges] prompts as opposed to the player physically placing the charges with own (tracked by hand controllers) hands.

Considerations / problems that I can foresee would be:
This list of considerations is in addition to the list from 1st Level and relates only to the VR On Foot aspect
  • Smooth Locomotion vs Teleporting?
    • Smooth locomotion may cause nausea in some
    • Teleportation is janky and could be used to cheat in FPS combat
      • pinned down? Simples... Teleport to a new safer location, this would be an exploited in PvE combat and an infuriating cheat in PvP FPS combat.
  • When running is there an element of headbob, which might cause nausea, so could this be smoothed for VR? Maybe via an option in graphics setting like "SRV Keep Horizon" setting?
  • What happens when the player leans their real body forward / back / left / right?
    • Would this be reflected by the "characters" and avatars?
    • Would reflecting this movement by the player need new animations for the "characters"?
      • Would the head be stuck to the neck and not movable at all?
      • or would the head only movable within certain limits?
      • Would hitting those limits induce nausea when the head motion stops changing the view?
        • as in you can move your head say ~150° (vertical to chin on chest), and more with slight shoulder / torso movement, but if the avatar/character is limited to say 110°, so movements from 110° to 150° of the players head would not be reflected on the view screen representing what their character's head is doing, the disconnect is a potential nausea trigger.
  • Similarly - care would need to be taken when entering or leaving the pilots seat, [Press X to enter/leave Pilot's seat] and an animation of your character getting up or sitting down disassociating the VR players view with their physical movements and or expected view changes arising from their control inputs into the game/simulation.
    • Maybe this might be best served as an optional fade to black during the transition?
    • Maybe cut to a third person view instead?
3rd Level - Seated VR with Hand-controllers in Odessy

Third level would "inherit" the flying and driving in VR from the first level, and continue to allow the player to take to their feet while still in VR and have VR headlook while on foot from 2nd level VR, but Add limited hand controls to the game, and remain a seated VR experience. In this sort of implementation the player would move their character using the thumbsticks on their hand controllers, and be able to perform tasks with them such as instead of the [PRESS "E" or BUTTON 2 to plant charges] from 2nd level VR, 3rd level VR would see the player move their hand to their hip, or press a button to "equip charges" to avoid punching their sears arms with their hand controller, take the charges from their hip pocket, move to the action point, move their actual hand towards the virtual action point and release the charges.

Considerations / problems that I can foresee with hand controllers would be:
This list of considerations is in addition to the list from 2nd Level VR and relates only to the VR Hand Controllers functionality
  • There would be a lot of work associated with elbows, with a WASD/Joypad game, the developers have control over the movements of arms, hands and elbows, and can have predefined animations for them. With hand controllers they need to, on the fly, figure out the appropriate movement for upper arm, forearm and below to reflect the changes of positional data from the hand controllers.
  • There MAY be a lot of work to implement hand interaction with assets in game, for things like pressing the button to open a door.
  • There would be a need to draw a line somewhere on what can and cannot be picked up and interacted with using hand controllers.
    • it would be cool if everything a player sees could be grabbed and manipulated as this would allow for things like throwing a pipe or a rock behind an opponent to distract them,
  • When transitioning to / from the seat, player would need to put aside their hand controllers and grasp their HOTAS, or vice versa
    • not a biggie, the VR Player would do this during the transition (fade to black moment or animation)
  • If the player has made their bindings use hotas buttons and hand controller buttons in the same mode, like if the left hand-controller grip button is also used for shield cell bank, working with the two types of controllers concurrently would be cumbersome.
    • not a biggie, the player simply needs to map more sensible control schemes and doing so is their problem not Frontier's
      • maybe put in checks in bindings to prevent ship / SRV functions being bound to a hand controller' buttons / axis' ?
    • Frontier would, however, need to ensure they don't create potential conflicts, by, for example making the open airlock button from the pilots seat one that needs "physically pressed" by using the hand controllers
  • Clipping! If a player stands with their CMDR's toes against a wall and raises their arm 90 out in front of them could their arm "clip" through the wall, potentially allowing them to cheat by shooting through a wall if they raise a hand holding a gun. Or would their CMDR be bushed back from the wall? It's not insurmountable, but it will need addressing.
4th Level - "Room scale" VR in Odessy
4th level would "inherit" the flying and driving in VR from the first level, and continue to allow the player to take to their feet while still in VR and have VR headlook while on foot, and the hand controls from third level VR, but now becomes a "room scale" VR experience. In this sort of implementation the player would move their character using either the thumbsticks on their hand controllers, or by walking (within the confines of their room) they could also control stance by physically crouching etc. There may still be a reliance on some VR Hand Controller inputs for walking as the player only has a room not a holodeck. Continued over from 3rd Level VR the room scale player would be able to perform tasks with their hands through the hand controllers. As such instead of the [PRESS "E" or BUTTON 2 to plant charges] from 2nd level VR, Like 3rd level VR, a roomscale player would move their hand to their hip, take the charges from their hip pocket, move to the action point, move their actual hand towards the virtual action point and release the charges.

Considerations / problems that I can foresee with hand controllers would be:
This list of considerations is in addition to the list from 3rd Level and relates only to the "room scale" functionality
  • Again, potentially a limit on the "physics" available to interact with, room scale players might see an apple sized rock that would be ideal to throw to distract a guard, and the could crouch down to pick it up, but would the game necessarily enable them to do that?
    • Finding out what is and isn't interactive could distract the player from core gameplay.
    • Adding more and more "physics" means an exponential growth in developer workload for diminishing returns in added gameplay
  • Room scale is good, but its not infinite. The boundaries could be a problem, if they hit a boundary of their play zone and have to turn 180° IRL and counter that with a thumbstick input to retain their original heading to continue walking down their corridor, in a 300m long ship, that's going to get a bit tedious.
  • Tracking of posture, stand up right, ducking slightly, fully ducking, crouch, kneel, prone all need to be tracked and calculated from head and hands alone.
  • Out of sync return to seats. A player gets out of gaming chair IRL, walks within their playzone to where their virtual SRV hangar is located, boards SRV, but they are now 3m away from their seat...
    • Do they walk back to their IRL seat and recenter avatar?
      • How do they do that without clipping through bulkheads?
  • First Person Combat, granted Room Scale would be good for enabling the player to go through stand / crouch / kneel, but how does that work with going prone? Or Cossack Crawling?
  • Clipping (again) if a player centres VR on current location when they have a couple of metres in front of them IRL, but only a couple of centimetres in game from a wall, could they simply step forwards 2m IRL and walk through the wall that way?
  • "Periscoping" - in a combat situation it might be possible for the player to crouch, reset VR, stand up, and have their view point from 3ft above their characters head somewhat akin to the way some players abuse third person in games like ARMA.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7zoVIsIT2A
The bare minimum would have to be version 2. You can't sell a DLC and only have part of it VR compatible.

Ideally it should an options of of 2, 3 or 4 and let people choose what they prefer.

But there is a fifth option too add. It would have all of four, but it will add full VR controller support over the cockpit too, with virtual could controls and being able to use the side holograms with the controllers too instead of curser keys or a pad on your VR controllers.
 
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I don't think 4th level is substantially more of a pipe dream than 3rd level. The hardest technical problems would be related to animation/IK, how the player interacts with the world using motion controllers, and how this is synchronised in multiplayer, and the balance considerations that follow. Level 4 just adds roomscale to this, the problem space for this has been largely solved by other developers by now using relatively simple solutions that should be easy enough to "borrow".

Realistically I don't think level 3 is something FD would consider, it's either 1,2 or 4, since the jump is so small that if you have 3 you might as well go full 4.

There are also several shortcuts they could take to make implementing 3/4 easier - for example, synchronising the head/arm movements so that other players can see them in multiplayer? While a cool feature, it's not an absolute necessity, Payday 2 for example more or less skipped this part of the implementation. To other players, you look and move like any flat screen player even though you can do fancy stuff like dual wield and shoot two pistols in different directions. I mean if you don't synchronise to MP, and if the player's own body is invisible to self, pretty much the entire animation/IK problem space evaporates. Going prone? Pavlov doesn't support that and most players don't seem to mind.
 
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I think with regards to our expectations/demands for VR in Odessy, we need to define what is a must-have versus what would-be-nice. These would be weighted differently for different individuals, but the expectations can be defined into "levels" of VR implementation, and each subsequent level would inherit the previous level's functionality. As such each subsiquent level will satisfy more of the VR playerbase.

1st Level - Pilots Seat only VR in Odessy

This would be the bare minimum VR approach for Odessy, and would essentially leave us with the same VR functionality, but be able to fly or drive under those coloured skies, this would allow VR Horizons players to continue as is, but gain access to the skies, and some Odessy content. There will be things like "new engineers" and "Sphere of Combat" from the release that could be partaken of in a ship / SLF / SRV and thus done in 1st level VR.

Where this gets clouded is what happens for on foot / Space Legs* content for VR level 1 players?
  • Is this Space Legs* content disabled, like the exit SRV menu button greyed out when in VR?
  • Is this Space Legs* content accessed by transitioning to flat screen, like click exit SRV brings up a black VR screen with a message "remove headset and press [BUTTON] to continue on foot"
  • Is this Space Legs* content accessed by a virtual 2d screen rendered inside the headset?
2nd Level - WASD/ Gamepad Walking VR in Odessy

This level would "inherit" the flying and driving in VR from the first level, but would add to it by allowing the player to take to their feet while still in VR and have VR headlook while on foot. The game remains a "seated VR experience" and as such does not include use of hand controllers to track the players hands, as such this would be a wasd / gamepad control scheme, with things like [PRESS E or BUTTON 2 to plant charges] prompts as opposed to the player physically placing the charges with own (tracked by hand controllers) hands.

Considerations / problems that I can foresee would be:
This list of considerations is in addition to the list from 1st Level and relates only to the VR On Foot aspect
  • Smooth Locomotion vs Teleporting?
    • Smooth locomotion may cause nausea in some
    • Teleportation is janky and could be used to cheat in FPS combat
      • pinned down? Simples... Teleport to a new safer location, this would be an exploited in PvE combat and an infuriating cheat in PvP FPS combat.
  • When running is there an element of headbob, which might cause nausea, so could this be smoothed for VR? Maybe via an option in graphics setting like "SRV Keep Horizon" setting?
  • What happens when the player leans their real body forward / back / left / right?
    • Would this be reflected by the "characters" and avatars?
    • Would reflecting this movement by the player need new animations for the "characters"?
      • Would the head be stuck to the neck and not movable at all?
      • or would the head only movable within certain limits?
      • Would hitting those limits induce nausea when the head motion stops changing the view?
        • as in you can move your head say ~150° (vertical to chin on chest), and more with slight shoulder / torso movement, but if the avatar/character is limited to say 110°, so movements from 110° to 150° of the players head would not be reflected on the view screen representing what their character's head is doing, the disconnect is a potential nausea trigger.
  • Similarly - care would need to be taken when entering or leaving the pilots seat, [Press X to enter/leave Pilot's seat] and an animation of your character getting up or sitting down disassociating the VR players view with their physical movements and or expected view changes arising from their control inputs into the game/simulation.
    • Maybe this might be best served as an optional fade to black during the transition?
    • Maybe cut to a third person view instead?
3rd Level - Seated VR with Hand-controllers in Odessy

Third level would "inherit" the flying and driving in VR from the first level, and continue to allow the player to take to their feet while still in VR and have VR headlook while on foot from 2nd level VR, but Add limited hand controls to the game, and remain a seated VR experience. In this sort of implementation the player would move their character using the thumbsticks on their hand controllers, and be able to perform tasks with them such as instead of the [PRESS "E" or BUTTON 2 to plant charges] from 2nd level VR, 3rd level VR would see the player move their hand to their hip, or press a button to "equip charges" to avoid punching their sears arms with their hand controller, take the charges from their hip pocket, move to the action point, move their actual hand towards the virtual action point and release the charges.

Considerations / problems that I can foresee with hand controllers would be:
This list of considerations is in addition to the list from 2nd Level VR and relates only to the VR Hand Controllers functionality
  • There would be a lot of work associated with elbows, with a WASD/Joypad game, the developers have control over the movements of arms, hands and elbows, and can have predefined animations for them. With hand controllers they need to, on the fly, figure out the appropriate movement for upper arm, forearm and below to reflect the changes of positional data from the hand controllers.
  • There MAY be a lot of work to implement hand interaction with assets in game, for things like pressing the button to open a door.
  • There would be a need to draw a line somewhere on what can and cannot be picked up and interacted with using hand controllers.
    • it would be cool if everything a player sees could be grabbed and manipulated as this would allow for things like throwing a pipe or a rock behind an opponent to distract them,
  • When transitioning to / from the seat, player would need to put aside their hand controllers and grasp their HOTAS, or vice versa
    • not a biggie, the VR Player would do this during the transition (fade to black moment or animation)
  • If the player has made their bindings use hotas buttons and hand controller buttons in the same mode, like if the left hand-controller grip button is also used for shield cell bank, working with the two types of controllers concurrently would be cumbersome.
    • not a biggie, the player simply needs to map more sensible control schemes and doing so is their problem not Frontier's
      • maybe put in checks in bindings to prevent ship / SRV functions being bound to a hand controller' buttons / axis' ?
    • Frontier would, however, need to ensure they don't create potential conflicts, by, for example making the open airlock button from the pilots seat one that needs "physically pressed" by using the hand controllers
  • Clipping! If a player stands with their CMDR's toes against a wall and raises their arm 90 out in front of them could their arm "clip" through the wall, potentially allowing them to cheat by shooting through a wall if they raise a hand holding a gun. Or would their CMDR be bushed back from the wall? It's not insurmountable, but it will need addressing.
4th Level - "Room scale" VR in Odessy
4th level would "inherit" the flying and driving in VR from the first level, and continue to allow the player to take to their feet while still in VR and have VR headlook while on foot, and the hand controls from third level VR, but now becomes a "room scale" VR experience. In this sort of implementation the player would move their character using either the thumbsticks on their hand controllers, or by walking (within the confines of their room) they could also control stance by physically crouching etc. There may still be a reliance on some VR Hand Controller inputs for walking as the player only has a room not a holodeck. Continued over from 3rd Level VR the room scale player would be able to perform tasks with their hands through the hand controllers. As such instead of the [PRESS "E" or BUTTON 2 to plant charges] from 2nd level VR, Like 3rd level VR, a roomscale player would move their hand to their hip, take the charges from their hip pocket, move to the action point, move their actual hand towards the virtual action point and release the charges.

Considerations / problems that I can foresee with hand controllers would be:
This list of considerations is in addition to the list from 3rd Level and relates only to the "room scale" functionality
  • Again, potentially a limit on the "physics" available to interact with, room scale players might see an apple sized rock that would be ideal to throw to distract a guard, and the could crouch down to pick it up, but would the game necessarily enable them to do that?
    • Finding out what is and isn't interactive could distract the player from core gameplay.
    • Adding more and more "physics" means an exponential growth in developer workload for diminishing returns in added gameplay
  • Room scale is good, but its not infinite. The boundaries could be a problem, if they hit a boundary of their play zone and have to turn 180° IRL and counter that with a thumbstick input to retain their original heading to continue walking down their corridor, in a 300m long ship, that's going to get a bit tedious.
  • Tracking of posture, stand up right, ducking slightly, fully ducking, crouch, kneel, prone all need to be tracked and calculated from head and hands alone.
  • Out of sync return to seats. A player gets out of gaming chair IRL, walks within their playzone to where their virtual SRV hangar is located, boards SRV, but they are now 3m away from their seat...
    • Do they walk back to their IRL seat and recenter avatar?
      • How do they do that without clipping through bulkheads?
  • First Person Combat, granted Room Scale would be good for enabling the player to go through stand / crouch / kneel, but how does that work with going prone? Or Cossack Crawling?
  • Clipping (again) if a player centres VR on current location when they have a couple of metres in front of them IRL, but only a couple of centimetres in game from a wall, could they simply step forwards 2m IRL and walk through the wall that way?
  • "Periscoping" - in a combat situation it might be possible for the player to crouch, reset VR, stand up, and have their view point from 3ft above their characters head somewhat akin to the way some players abuse third person in games like ARMA.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7zoVIsIT2A
Nice list. Very comprehensive.

Given the current situation we are in with it looking like no VR at all at the moment, I really don't see much chance of Levels 3 or 4.
Levels 1 or 2 look like more of a possibility IF (and it's a very big IF) FDev have a change of heart.

Personally I would be OK with level 1, and absolutely delighted with Level 2.
 
While a cool feature, it's not an absolute necessity, Payday 2 for example more or less skipped this part of the implementation. To other players, you look and move like any flat screen player even though you can do fancy stuff like dual wield and shoot two pistols in different directions. I mean if you don't synchronise to MP, and if the player's own body is invisible to self, pretty much the entire animation/IK problem space evaporates.


The thing is though, Payday 2 is co-op, so it’s less vital to see where you’re buddy is aiming, whereas ED would theoretically feature PvP, where it would be more of an issue. (Also, P2 did actually add multiplayer-visible IK arms etc in the end I believe ;))

I think that’s the type of 'slippery slope of dev' FDev are drawing back from. (If you add hand controllers, then maybe you’ve got to add networked IK arms etc etc)
 
You're right. Another shortcut is not allowing dual wielding (HL:A among other games doesn't), so that other players won't be confused about where you're aiming. That way no problems will arise even in a hardcore PVP game like Elite: Dangerous.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Then please try not to derail the thread

I believe it wasnt me bringing an unreliable (and therefore irrelevant) poll to the thread. I think the merits of VR here can be perfectly argued without the need to resorting to that poll tbh, but it is up to you if you want to continue that line of discussion or instead follow your own advice.
 
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There's another angle here , which I don't think has been articulated; one of a moral obligation if not an actual obligation to provide VR for those with Lifetime Expansion Passes, who have been playing on VR for as long as access to the feature has allowed (alpha iirc?).

An analogy to this, that non-VR players may be able to relate to, is like Frontier announcing "sorry, but for reasons we're not going to disclose (or that are credible), were limiting the resolution to 1024x768 and keyboard control only".

Now I'm sure there are some who would revel in the nostalgia that might provoke, but think for a second about how that would go down for the fan base in general if real...
 
There's another angle here , which I don't think has been articulated; one of a moral obligation if not an actual obligation to provide VR for those with Lifetime Expansion Passes, who have been playing on VR for as long as access to the feature has allowed (alpha iirc?).
I made this point earlier- I'm one of those with a LEP. I paid the £200 alpha entry fee in 2014, and VR worked on the Rift straightaway at that point (I had a DK2 at the time), and effectively with the current stance by Frontier I will not be able to enjoy Odyssey content in VR, which is a kick in the face as far as I'm concerned. And I'll not put a penny more into their trinket store if the VR support is not addressed, or indeed bother playing a stagnant Horizons build for ever more. I've uninstalled everything, it's a waste of storage as far as I'm concerned- I really am that disheartened.

Elite Dangerous: "See you in the black, commanders".

Yes, that'd be the output from the headset if I bothered to launch an Odyssey build from the launcher... :(
 
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Do you have a source?

Here is mine:
View attachment 178929
Oh, yes. That's most assuredly an accurate representation of the E: D user base. ROFL

But you keep your delusions, I'll not disparage your dreams no matter how outlandish.
 
Nice list. Very comprehensive.

Given the current situation we are in with it looking like no VR at all at the moment, I really don't see much chance of Levels 3 or 4.
Levels 1 or 2 look like more of a possibility IF (and it's a very big IF) FDev have a change of heart.

Personally I would be OK with level 1, and absolutely delighted with Level 2.
I won't settle for or accept level 1, but I know it would please some, hence me including it on the list. If that's all we can get, its better that some are happy than none, even if I am not one of the beneficiaries. Level 2 would be my threshold, its what I want and expect. 3 & 4 are obviously more challenging and therefore less likely, but were they implemented I'd hope they would be optional?
 
Another week... Another insightful dev diary.
It's in the glove box
_110368639_p07zbvy5.jpg
 
he default answer to how long it will take is "I don't know".
While it should be - we need to refine it with the rest of the team, decompose into smaller units and estimate on that, then we can talk money (mandays) :p
Even say the team is 60 devs + 60 "others" (design / art / sound / graphics / etc) so its one developer in a team of sixty for a week six to eight months from launch. Even going with 6 months to launch not 8, total dev team capacity is 24weeks x 60devs = 1440dev weeks, one "dev week" isn't going to make much difference to the overall launch date now is it? If VR took one dev week, there is still 1439 dev weeks left to do the rest of the game. it's less than one percent of the developer resources available.
(...)
that entails using my project management experience
Heh you're a PM, so you should know better (friendly dev -> pm jab there ;-) ) that it's not that simple. Adding coders to project makes it late, not earlier ;-) And number of hours don't usually convert linearly 1:1 like you optimistically assumed. Software development is a complicated process, sometimes one thing being worked on can hold the entire team etc. etc.

I also don't think it's a time/cost decision. I think it's Braben's "stance shift" on VR and decisions that followed. When I first heard that, I thought "uh oh, no new VR things in E: D". Never in my wildest dreams did I envision that he actually leaves VR on the cutting room floor while refactoring the engine... Greg's VR must have been one hell of a spaghetti hack universally hated by the devs :D
we don't know how complex VR integration would be
We know. It isn't complex, because it is not implemented :p
(Lots of good stuff, but...)
ODYSSEY
Copy it from your Avatar, or Fdev will make extra expansion called Odessy simulating a ship's toilet and implement VR there. Bonus - reading galnet while... you know. Hell even spellchecker on my browser highlights that abomination "odessy". Come on, fix it :p

I think that’s the type of 'slippery slope of dev' FDev are drawing back from. (If you add hand controllers, then maybe you’ve got to add networked IK arms etc etc)
I don't get the hype for IK arms, very few games can pull it right. In fact I think only Boneworks did pull it right, and even that glitches sometimes. Watching teammates in Onward is often a freak show. Bonus points if someone puts headset on the floor to take a break, and then gets it back up. That's some really scary level 99 necromancy show right there :D

I'd be perfectly fine with disembodied hands like Alyx and Onward, and for the models fixing them in position like normal pancake players based on where the gun is aiming. Hardware for IK arms is not there yet - vive trackers cost a fortune and only 2.8% of VR users have them ;-)))

it’s less vital to see where you’re buddy is aiming
hardcore PVP game like Elite: Dangerous
U wot mates? Seriously? Aren't you overcomplicating things? Never in my long history of playing multiplayer games was I concerned with teammate's gun position, only just making sure that I'm not on the line of fire. I also think that you are envisioning something as complex as Elite: Dangerous - The Division 2, while we will probably be getting Elite: Dangerous - Wolfenstein 3d judging from FDev's love for MVP. So yeah, IMHO those concerns are irrelevant. I also see a lot of references to the competitive aspect and I think people built this IMHO frankly absurd outlook that FDev implemented something akin to Fortnite and it's now merging it with Elite codebase. While in my opinion we will get something akin to SC where you simply have a gun on foot and maybe simplistic leaderboards. But my guess is as good as yours. I'm still seeing space legs as extension to gameplay, not as a CQC on foot, but... we will see.
 
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