Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Deleted member 182079]

Pucker factor is something we military types sometimes refer to when in combat or combat training. For example, as a gunner on an MRAP in Mosul I was always on edge and hyper-alert, scanning constantly for threats. Some of that carried over for a short time, when I redeployed back to the States.

While that can only be simulated to a certain point in a video game, some folks like the pucker-factor in gaming, and those folks seek the cat-and-mouse piece with other players in-game - even if they're usually playing the role of the mouse.

When I'm PvP'ing, I prefer the role of the fox, stalking prey and striking them at times and location of my own choosing. If I'm hauling stuff, exploring, or mining, not so much.

Thankfully, Frontier gives us an option - and that's a good thing.

The problem with taking on the role of the fox in Elite is you basically need to either resort to seal clubbing (I can't because I would feel bad about it - even though I'd make an exception for certain syschat individuals but they all seem to play in Solo/PG) or I'd have to fly a combat focused, likely meta, gunboat. But I find balanced PvP engagements quite dull and drawn out so I don't usually bother.

Mouse it is then - and to be fair, when I got ganked 3 times in a row by the same wing of 4, it was quite amusing how they could not get me - twice I was flying a shieldless Viper 4 (3000 hull though) and the third time my 880m/s Courier (I was able to fly backwards in a straight line and they still couldn't land a shot, all the while distance increased) - surprised they even bothered interdicting me... they were Elite ranked so I presume they were experienced enough.

Couldn't resist to rub it in a little afterwards, even though they wasted 15 minutes of time I meant to be doing something else instead

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Running away from them is funny. Taunting them in chat later is funnier.

Running away again has seen me make a few rage quit LOL.

There's a reason I like flying small "useless" ships.

Because they're not useless.

Very much this. The more unassuming a ship is, the better - more experienced players obviously see through it but every now and then you get someone who thinks their Corvette makes them ruler of the galaxy

 

[Maolagin]

it was quite amusing how they could not get me - twice I was flying a shieldless Viper 4 (3000 hull though)

It's their own fault, "competently flown Viper" is the hard counter to PvP meta PA/frag builds, and shame on them for not knowing that in advance.

 

[Theodrid]

The win/lose conditions are too heavily stacked in favour of the pirate.

 

[Juniper]

I think the OP simply sums up the issue with multiplayer games generally - and that is people.

When how you like to spend your game time conflicts with someone else's game time, then you get issues such as has been described. Some people simply get their kicks out of ruining someone else's game.

E: D was always meant to have a solo offline element to it, and that's how it was Kickstarted. None of us knew they weren't going to do that, but it is what it is.

I always play in private group or solo. Because I like to play at my own pace, doing the things I like to do.

But never in Open. Because people.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

It's their own fault, "competently flown Viper" is the hard counter to PvP meta PA/frag builds, and shame on them for not knowing that in advance.

They chewed about 20% hull off me while peppering me with various nasty little special effects (think one might have been scramble spectrum perhaps, my PP/Thrusters were out for a little bit even though the module was very much intact - FA Off saved me I think) but managed to high wake in both instances. I suppose flying shieldless leaves you open to those things but it's surprising how recoverable things are especially once you learn how to keep a cool head. I was a disaster in the early days, extracting the landing gear instead etc.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

The win/lose conditions are too heavily stacked in favour of the pirate.

I wouldn't say that - once you try out being a pirate you'll see it's not as easy as it seems if you encounter someone with a competent build - PDTs, decent shields, hull, speed and/or mass lock factor will all make the life of a pirate more difficult.

And that's not considering the time it takes to actually come across a miner that's already some loot in their hold, and who won't log on you when they see you in their instance.

 

[Alsteif]

I think the OP simply sums up the issue with multiplayer games generally - and that is people.

When how you like to spend your game time conflicts with someone else's game time, then you get issues such as has been described. Some people simply get their kicks out of ruining someone else's game.

E: D was always meant to have a solo offline element to it, and that's how it was Kickstarted. None of us knew they weren't going to do that, but it is what it is.

I always play in private group or solo. Because I like to play at my own pace, doing the things I like to do.

But never in Open. Because people.

The problems are not necesarily people, actually. At least in my opinion. The problem is that being the prey gives you... well, the experience of being pirated.
To a very experienced player with lot's of money it is fun. Even if he looses. I mean, bad talking to a player, when he tried to kill you? Yeah, can be fun.

But then you have people who are not that experienced. Or people who don't care for pvp. They will go to solo or PG. Since there is NO reason for them to go play in open. The risk outweights the rewards.
IF Elite had rewards for being a prey and winining, then people would play in open. And maybe even be better at pvp.

 

[Schmack]

With the NPC Pirates, at least you know once they bug you the first time you won't see them again for the rest of your session. In Open though what's to stop Real Player pirates from continually approaching you to take everything you've got every session? You have no recourse.

The main reason is because it's only fun for the gankers, it's not fun for anyone else. At least not the way it is now.

I really don't think it has anything to do with losing some of your product, many of us would gladly allow telepresence crew or a wing even if that meant we had to give up some of our profit. I think it has everything to do with the miner or Trader not getting anything from the experience. There's no entertainment value.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

The problems are not necesarily people, actually. At least in my opinion. The problem is that being the prey gives you... well, the experience of being pirated.
To a very experienced player with lot's of money it is fun. Even if he looses. I mean, bad talking to a player, when he tried to kill you? Yeah, can be fun.

But then you have people who are not that experienced. Or people who don't care for pvp. They will go to solo or PG. Since there is NO reason for them to go play in open. The risk outweights the rewards.
IF Elite had rewards for being a prey and winining, then people would play in open. And maybe even be better at pvp.

But not eating a rebuy and the satisfaction of having escaped, isn't that rewarding enough? Sure, if people don't want to play with others, play Solo/PG, that's what they're for.

I recently pirated a noob Anaconda, I asked for 10t of LTDs, which he gave to me - he then low waked but if I'm perfectly honest, if he would've stayed I would've offered protection (free of charge ofc) in case another pirate would show up (likely because he mined in the middle hotspot where the EGG is). But it's cool either way. The whole situation was very polite, no shots were fired, and I hope the other CMDR had some excitement in his own way (after all, he couldn't be sure if I could be trusted, and how that engagement would pan out).

Better than the other guy in his Python who didn't want to give me 8t even - he limped out of the instance with downed shields and <40% hull, and hurled some abuse at me. I could've followed him and finished the job but it wasn't worth my time - those players should definitely stick to Solo/PG then.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That is how I imagine everyone thought things could be. In the end it's just bad game design. I think that OPEN play should certainly have a balance of risk vs reward.

Piracy has no meaningful context in the game at all. Piracy is about people with less, taking from people with more because it's easier or more fun. The people with more should be willing to take risk to get even more. The game world has no mechanics to support that. Everyone can be a multi billionaire in a couple days. It's ridiculous and I can't believe it was never addressed.

Thats whats sad about it, the idea of living your way to scratch a living has gone in favour of blurting out money. For FD its easier to do, but much less satisfying for players long term.

 

[wrmiller]

IF Elite had rewards for being a prey and winining, then people would play in open. And maybe even be better at pvp.

Maybe some, but not all. I certainly wouldn't.

 

[Juniper]

The problems are not necesarily people, actually. At least in my opinion. The problem is that being the prey gives you... well, the experience of being pirated.
To a very experienced player with lot's of money it is fun. Even if he looses. I mean, bad talking to a player, when he tried to kill you? Yeah, can be fun.

But then you have people who are not that experienced. Or people who don't care for pvp. They will go to solo or PG. Since there is NO reason for them to go play in open. The risk outweights the rewards.
IF Elite had rewards for being a prey and winining, then people would play in open. And maybe even be better at pvp.

There is no way for anyone initiating PvP to know the difference between those playergroups. And I'm not sure it would be a good idea for others to know - especially the preying kind, because all these people want to do is ruin your game. Newbies and anti-PVPers are low hanging fruit to these people.

I would be fine with 'open only' if we had an optional 'tag' you could assign yourself that made you immune to direct damage from other players (and you couldn't inflict damage either). The game might be more social that way - which is the only reason to ever venture into Open from what I can see.

But that idea has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum for years, and it's not going to happen, so we have what we have. If you don't want your game ruined by idiots, you have to go dark. It's the only way, and it's a very blunt instrument IMO.

 

[Alsteif]

But not eating a rebuy and the satisfaction of having escaped, isn't that rewarding enough? Sure, if people don't want to play with others, play Solo/PG, that's what they're for.

I recently pirated a noob Anaconda, I asked for 10t of LTDs, which he gave to me - he then low waked but if I'm perfectly honest, if he would've stayed I would've offered protection (free of charge ofc) in case another pirate would show up (likely because he mined in the middle hotspot where the EGG is). But it's cool either way. The whole situation was very polite, no shots were fired, and I hope the other CMDR had some excitement in his own way (after all, he couldn't be sure if I could be trusted, and how that engagement would pan out).

Better than the other guy in his Python who didn't want to give me 8t even - he limped out of the instance with downed shields and <40% hull, and hurled some abuse at me. I could've followed him and finished the job but it wasn't worth my time - those players should definitely stick to Solo/PG then.

Exactly, but look at it from a different perspective:
- both of those players could be annoyed at you pirating them. From my perspective it's a bit pointless - they played in open, so they should be prepared to loose. But still. You were in a better, stronger ship. You would be able to kill them both, with no trouble. And them? What can they get from takin on that risk? Chances are, that they won't go back to playing in open after that. Cuz why would they?

There are some players, who enjoy being in an alive, dangerous galaxy. To them, playing in open is fun regardless of what happens. IF they lose? That's nothing. IT's what they signed for.
Then you have players who play Elite as a game, where they can do what they want. (SInce it's being advertised as a sandbox). TO them, being pirated/ganked is the worst. SInce they didn't even add the "run, give up or die" problem of being pirated/ganked.

They could simply move to solo/pg and stay there. But then the amount of players that pirates can interact with, is very small.
Because to some players, being pirated or ganked gives them no satisfaction, no fun, nothing. The experience gives them onl negative feelings against the person who attacked them.

IF there was a reaso, in game reason, to play in open, there would be far less people who don't know how to fly, who don't pvp. People would play in open, if they had a reason to.
Right now pepole who play open are people who want that experience of being prey/hunter. And there is nothing wrong with that.
But it could be so much more. Elite would be much funnier, with more people in open.
And we shouldn't really demand one group of players to change the way they think about open. Since neither group is wrong.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

I think the OP simply sums up the issue with multiplayer games generally - and that is people.

When how you like to spend your game time conflicts with someone else's game time, then you get issues such as has been described. Some people simply get their kicks out of ruining someone else's game.

E: D was always meant to have a solo offline element to it, and that's how it was Kickstarted. None of us knew they weren't going to do that, but it is what it is.

I always play in private group or solo. Because I like to play at my own pace, doing the things I like to do.

But never in Open. Because people.

Exactly.

I have a friend who started playing a couple of weeks ago, but playing it with his 8 year old son, giving him the chance to pick where to go, what to buy, etc. He was telling me that his was very happy when they were able to leave the safe zone but immediately were ganked. Lesson learned as they are now sticking to solo (until I send them across the Mobius details).

I am sure some lowlife will say "it is introducing him to life" or something to justify their actions but really, they're the ones always moaning about "nobody in open".

 

[Reggit]

As long as your not in one, out of about 4, hotspots - Solo or Open seems to make very little difference to me.
(that being said, sitting in a shieldless Type-7 in the middle of Deciat is probably a bad idea!)

All I know is, I've lost count of how many times I dropped into a Low Wake just to say "Hello" to whoever was in there......aaaaaaaaand, immediate Combat Log

If your going to Log the second you see another Cmdr....Just play in Solo maybe?
I don't care what mode you play in (more power to you!) but please, OWN your choice.

 

[Alsteif]

There is no way for anyone initiating PvP to know the difference between those playergroups. And I'm not sure it would be a good idea for others to know - especially the preying kind, because all these people want to do is ruin your game. Newbies and anti-PVPers are low hanging fruit to these people.

I would be fine with 'open only' if we had an optional 'tag' you could assign yourself that made you immune to direct damage from other players (and you couldn't inflict damage either). The game might be more social that way - which is the only reason to ever venture into Open from what I can see.

But that idea has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum for years, and it's not going to happen, so we have what we have. If you don't want your game ruined by idiots, you have to go dark. It's the only way, and it's a very blunt instrument IMO.

Oh, there is no need for the tag or immunity.
If you want a safe, controlled player experience- you go to pg's.
If you want to play in solo - you play in solo.


What i describe is a reason for more (not all) players to play in open.It wouldn't take away anything from current gameplay in pg's or solo. Immunity would take away from open tho.

 

[Brrokk]

Hello! Here is something i was thinking about for the last... week, if not more. And before i start - no, i don't belive pirates to be the worst kind o players. Or gankers. And i don't belive PVP is a devil-spawn to be killed with fire. On the contrary. I just want to give a bit of... insight, as to why people are avoiding open.

For the past few days i have been (like many others) mining. Not to get a carrier though! I am mining because right now, with Carriers added, you have an actuall way to interact and work together with other players. I can chat with people in Elite! What a shock! The chat actually serves another function besides trying to insult that one guy who is going to get married! I got some Ltd's, i gave some tritium to the pal who has been using his carrier as a taxi, somethimes selling some ltd's on a lower price for them as well, as my way of saying "thank you!". Overall a very, very nice experience. The carriers do serve a nice role for miners now, horay! But, at the same time i have noticed a few people, who have been asking other cmdr's to mine in open, and who would usually get very.... "defensive", when met with an overall negative response to their speaches about risk taking and solo/pg players destroying the pirate-side of the experience. Thus i do assume, that those folks were mostly pirates, who wanted a challenge. And there is, of course, nothing wrong with that.

Because of that, and of the few conversations i had both in game and on discord, I started to wonder - why would anyone actually mine in open? Or play in open at all?

PVP in Elite is a ...can. Maybe not of worms, but it does have it's problems. Combat logging, insults towards pirates, game being not balanced at all. But i have been wondering, why would anyone actually mine, trade or...well, fly in open?
There are a few reasons, as to why people don't want to do that, in my opinion. Look at this example:

1. You mine in open.
2. Someone goes to you, points his guns at you, demanding some LTD's you have just mined. You have three options:
a) give him the stuff;
b) try and run away;
c) fight;

In Elite, the easiest thing to do is to run away. Making a quick ship is not that difficult, so running away quickly and high-waking is the easest thing to do. But it does take away time, which some have only a little of to play. And let's be honest. You go to another system, you have escaped... but you have to go back to that system to continue what you have been doing. So... what was the point of running away? (Of course, that is, IF the system is your selling system or mining system, if it's mid-way, then you can take a detour, but people are waiting for targets in selling systems...).

Combat? I would forget it. If your enemy is in a pvp build, and you are in a mining build, you are not gonna win. Unless the pirate is very bad at flying or you are very good at it. But why would you, when you came here to mine? Or to trade?

And giving up to his demands? That is the worst option in the eyes of some players. Elite is a time-consuming game. So imagine - you mine for an hour (it's even worse, if you don't like mining), and now some guy wants you to give it up?

What does it sum up to?
Besides a potential (and usually one-time for some) "Hey! I have managed to run away! I ma so great!", there is no incentive to actually go through that.
Everything you do in Elite, you can do in Solo, PG, or Open.

A gameplay loop in Elite usually consists of:
1. Prepare a ship for said loop (and start the loop, if it is a trading/passanger route);
2. Go to the system
3. Mine/trade/do something
4. Go to the system where you take your reward for it.

IF you go in open, you add the risk of having all that you did/are trying to acomplish ruined/stoped.
And there is no reward for taking that risk. It doesn't matter if you are in open. In fact, most people may avoid being in open, because:

They DON'T want to be someone's gameplay.

Because, frankly, why would they?
Being a prey in Elite is not fun for everyone. It is usually annoying (besides maybe the first two times you are being chased). After all:
- you are being attacked by someone, who will win in a 1 v 1 fight, the npc's will come to help you, but they may not arrive in time, hatchbreaking your ship is easy. And of course, you get nothingout of that experience, besides being annoyed that you just took this kind of risk for no potential gain.


Thus, as the title stated- Being a "prey" of a pirate is not fun, gives no reward for the risk taken, and is usually a very not-fun experience.
Yes, you can learn how to run away. You can avoid the danger. But the gameplay-part of "running away and avoiding the danger" is not fun, because you are not getting anything for it.


What i would like to add at the end - please, if you would like people to play in open with you, so you can find a challenge, so you can be the pirate you would like to be, think about why people don't want go through that ^ ^.

Also: i am talking about people who don't like that kind of gameplay. IF you do like being a prey, if you like the "I have to run away!" then all the power for you. But there are many, who don't enjoy it.

Sincerely,
Eric Alsteif.

The problem for pirates is that if I'm interdicted, I don't know whether I face a proper pirate. Now that I'm filthy rich for rebuys, I'm prepared to risk it. I'll throttle down and await demands. Anyone who opens fire without comms gets blocked. I now see this as doing my bit for the piratical play style, but it's not something I'd do if I wasn't awash with credits.

It's silent gankers who have destroyed piracy, which should be part of the Elite game.

 

[Juniper]

Oh, there is no need for the tag or immunity.
If you want a safe, controlled player experience- you go to pg's.
If you want to play in solo - you play in solo.

What i describe is a reason for more (not all) players to play in open.It wouldn't take away anything from current gameplay in pg's or solo. Immunity would take away from open tho.

The reason to play in Open, at least from my perspective (& I think it would apply to many more solo/PGers) is to make the galaxy feel 'alive'. NPCs do not cut it - because their AI and behaviour algorithms are so basic. It's fun seeing other commanders out there, doing their thing. Some of them are even friendly.

You won't find me (or many others) in Open until there is a PvP opt-out tag. Because we're not there to experience that. Prey or hunter - it honestly doesn't matter. And it has nothing to do with "rewards".

Currently, the "solution" is to separate all solo/PGers from the rest of the player base.

And that leads to a very empty game, because of the way it's been built and where the priorities of the developers lie.

 

[Alsteif]

The reason to play in Open, at least from my perspective (& I think it would apply to many more solo/PGers) is to make the galaxy feel 'alive'. NPCs do not cut it - because their AI and behaviour algorithms are so basic. It's fun seeing other commanders out there, doing their thing. Some of them are even friendly.

You won't find me (or many others) in Open until there is a PvP opt-out tag. Because we're not there to experience that. Prey or hunter - it honestly doesn't matter. And it has nothing to do with "rewards".

Currently, the "solution" is to separate all solo/PGers from the rest of the player base.

And that leads to a very empty game, because of the way it's been built and where the priorities of the developers lie.

Well, the problem is, that as long as people want to pew pew at each other, they will - since it is a part of the game.
I don't mean to say, that you can't play Elite without pvp. You by all means can. That is why we have pg's and solo.
But this threat is about discusing, how to make open and piracy in open better for more people.