Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Just Paul]

The problems are not necesarily people, actually. At least in my opinion. The problem is that being the prey gives you... well, the experience of being pirated.
To a very experienced player with lot's of money it is fun. Even if he looses. I mean, bad talking to a player, when he tried to kill you? Yeah, can be fun.

But then you have people who are not that experienced. Or people who don't care for pvp. They will go to solo or PG. Since there is NO reason for them to go play in open. The risk outweights the rewards.
IF Elite had rewards for being a prey and winining, then people would play in open. And maybe even be better at pvp.

I don't think rewards for being prey and winning would change that. For some cr/hr is the enjoyment and for others it's to do and finish uninterrupted what they planned out. Solo/PG is the modes for them and there is nothing wrong with that. Playing in open gives you rewards and enjoyment in a different way, something that is not really seen in the in-game stats. I for example like that there is no certainty that I will complete the tasks I set out or that my cr/hr could be negative, that's why I play in open. For me not knowing what will happen in the next instance I enter is what makes the game exciting. I rather have a few less players in open than somebody getting upset about somebody else playing by the rules of the mode. If somebody needs rewards to play in open, it's the wrong mode for them anyways.
Everybody should choose the mode that's best aligned to what they want to get out of the game. It's simple, but so hard to do for some it seems.

And for the whole pirate vs. murder-hobo argument. Both are in the lore. Remember that being Elite puts a target on your back and not many survived until retirement. Same with noob pilots, not many made it far. That's the Elite way.

 

[Juniper]

Well, the problem is, that as long as people want to pew pew at each other, they will - since it is a part of the game.
I don't mean to say, that you can't play Elite without pvp. You by all means can. That is why we have pg's and solo.
But this threat is about discusing, how to make open and piracy in open better for more people.

Yes I know, and I'm suggesting a way that would bring many thousands more into Open.

"Rewards" simply don't matter. You can make just as much in solo/PG as you can in Open, and after a fairly short time, it becomes largely irrelevant anyway. There's no risk/reward dynamic, because there's basically no risk. You die, you respawn. The "risk" is having your game ruined by a random idiot - and there's no reward that can offset that.

I guess you disregard it because you don't like the idea that they can't be shot at. Which only proves my point, tbh.

 

[Alsteif]

The problem for pirates is that if I'm interdicted, I don't know whether I face a proper pirate. Now that I'm filthy rich for rebuys, I'm prepared to risk it. I'll throttle down and await demands. Anyone who opens fire without comms gets blocked. I now see this as doing my bit for the piratical play style, but it's not something I'd do if I wasn't awash with credits.

It's silent gankers who have destroyed piracy, which should be part of the Elite game.

Well, is the difference that important?
At least in my book, you fly and fight against a pirate AND a ganker. I would never give up my cargo without a fight.
The concept of "this person showed my his guns, now i have to give up my hard-earned ltd's" is not only bizzare, but also annoying xd. It's fight or death! As such - i would prefer to have a reason to actually be in open. Just the fight alone is not enough for me to be in open. And for many more people as well.

 

[Alsteif]

Yes I know, and I'm suggesting a way that would bring many thousands more into Open.

"Rewards" simply don't matter. You can make just as much in solo/PG as you can in Open, and after a fairly short time, it becomes largely irrelevant anyway.

I guess you disregard it because you don't like the idea that they can't be shot at. Which only proves my point, tbh.

I will admit, that i am more of a person who wouldn't be able to think about open without shooting, yes.
I don't like shooting without a reason tho.

 

[Brrokk]

Well, is the difference that important?
At least in my book, you fly and fight against a pirate AND a ganker. I would never give up my cargo without a fight.
The concept of "this person showed my his guns, now i have to give up my hard-earned ltd's" is not only bizzare, but also annoying xd. It's fight or death! As such - i would prefer to have a reason to actually be in open. Just the fight alone is not enough for me to be in open. And for many more people as well.

Yes, I think the difference is important; I like playing ED. The pirate wants to play ED with me. The gankers want to annoy me in RL by stopping me from playing ED and wasting my leisure time.

 

[Juniper]

I will admit, that i am more of a person who wouldn't be able to think about open without shooting, yes.
I don't like shooting without a reason tho.

What you do in your game is none of my business. You do what you enjoy doing. "Do what thy will, but harm none" is the one true law of humanity we should all stick to IMO.

But I'm not interested in combat. Period. I have 5 PC accounts, and 1 PS4 account. They are all 'Elite' at something, and they are all 'Novice' or lower in combat. Even in my PS4 account, I'm out in the black exploring, thousands of light years from anyone most likely, but I still play in solo just in case I encounter a random idiot who would think it hilarious to blow up my shieldless weaponless ship that's rigged purely for exploration, return me to the bubble, and lose months of exploration data.

That's my game. Tell me how your risk/reward mechanic would entice me to play in Open. It wouldn't.

 

[Alsteif]

What you do in your game is none of my business. You do what you enjoy doing. "Do what thy will, but harm none" is the one true law of humanity we should all stick to IMO.

But I'm not interested in combat. Period. I have 5 PC accounts, and 1 PS4 account. They are all 'Elite' at something, and they are all 'Novice' or lower in combat. Even in my PS4 account, I'm out in the black exploring, thousands of light years from anyone most likely, but I still play in solo just in case I encounter a random idiot who would think it hilarious to blow up my shieldless weaponless ship that's rigged purely for exploration, return me to the bubble, and lose months of exploration data.

That's my game. Tell me how your risk/reward mechanic would entice me to play in Open. It wouldn't.

Indeed. And that is perfectly fine ^ ^.

 

[Alsteif]

Yes, I think the difference is important; I like playing ED. The pirate wants to play ED with me. The gankers want to annoy me in RL by stopping me from playing ED and wasting my leisure time.

Well, i would say that the pirates at times also want to waste our time. We trade or mine, have our things we want to do, and then boom. Someone want's to steal from ya... it's annoying xd. At least to me.

 

[Tividar]

And that's the thing. There is nothing making me feel, that i should agree to that kind of gameplay. I don't have to take up this challenge. SInce it's not really necessary, and winning doesn't give me anything.
If i loose, i give up my ship or my cargo. And if i win? Nothing.

The risk is asymetrically in favor of the pirate, the reward is asymetrically in favor of the pirate. The gameplay is not compelling, and piracy is relatively un-profitable. Even if you want to experience a piracy event, the odds are the "pirate" is just looking for an easy kill. I am amazed this subject keeps popping up. Its not a pirates vs. victims "provide my content" sort of issue - its a Frontier fix your s*** sort of issue.

 

[Alsteif]

The risk is asymetrically in favor of the pirate, the reward is asymetrically in favor of the pirate. The gameplay is not compelling, and piracy is relatively un-profitable. Even if you want to experience a piracy event, the odds are the "pirate" is just looking for an easy kill. I am amazed this subject keeps popping up. Its not a pirates vs. victims "provide my content" sort of issue - its a Frontier fix your s*** sort of issue.

Yeah... it all falls to Frontier doing anything with the game. I have promised myself today, that i will not mine salt with this thread though! As such, i am trying my best ^ ^.
Elite is made for everyone and no one - thus many people are trying to play the game in their own ways, and ... some are trying to make people play in "only" their way. While disregarding all other ways of playing.

The main reason for this thread to exist is that, while playing in a pg there were so, so many people talking to me and the others to go to open "and play for real!" Which.... i found as bizzare and rather annoying. Thus i tried to figure out WHY people don't want to play in open.
Your answer and my match. But i wanted a bit of an insight from other people on the topic.

 

[Tividar]

Yeah... it all falls to Frontier doing anything with the game. I have promised myself today, that i will not mine salt with this thread though! As such, i am trying my best ^ ^.
Elite is made for everyone and no one - thus many people are trying to play the game in their own ways, and ... some are trying to make people play in "only" their way. While disregarding all other ways of playing.

The main reason for this thread to exist is that, while playing in a pg there were so, so many people talking to me and the others to go to open "and play for real!" Which.... i found as bizzare and rather annoying. Thus i tried to figure out WHY people don't want to play in open.
Your answer and my match. But i wanted a bit of an insight from other people on the topic.

"Playing for real..." SMH.

"Hey Johnnie! lets go play baseball. Real baseball. But here's the thing: you've chosen of your own free will to play the role of a T-Baller, so you have to use a wiffle-bat, and I've chosen to be an all-star capable of throwing 100 mph+ fastballs, so I'm going to use this baseball air-cannon. We are going to have so much fun..."

 

[AtomicJuggler]

And i agree 100% with you. By going to open, you agree to the fact, that you May be the target.
But there is no reason for me to do So.
Since we have solo and PG's.
Even if credits were harder to Come by, People wouldnt fly in open. Because why would they?

If the credit gain or asteroid yield was a lot lower in solo, and the crime and punishments more efficient in open, 'open' would be a more interesting option for everyone.

 

[Juniper]

If the credit gain or asteroid yield was a lot lower in solo, and the crime and punishments more efficient in open, 'open' would be a more interesting option for everyone.

So that simply punishes solo & PG players for no reason whatsoever.

Can't you think of something other than a stick to beat people with to entice them to do something they inherently don't want to do?

Bit sad really.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

How is that a problem?

If you read the rest of my post, you'd understand why i think its a problem.

If I thought Open would just be pirates, I'd have a huge problem with such an absurd and arbitrary constraint.

I click Open because I want the unrestricted experience, where my CMDR can encounter other CMDRs, any other CMDRs, whose players are willing to follow the rules of the game.

I'm not looking for the Elite: Dangerous Piracy-only mode, where the only way other CMDRs can interact with mine are as immersion defying examples of a profession even more lacking in context than ganker, attempted murder hobo who only targets victims that cannot actually die, or wandering troupe of criminally violent asylum escapees.

Again, perhaps read what i wrote? I wasn't suggesting pirates only, but i don't want to play with the sorts of people who will blast people in a sidewinder while sending "git gud scrub" over comms.

Given the choice between both good and bad types of people or neither, i'll take neither.

You are fine to want a different experience, i'm not aruging against that.

 

[Alsteif]

"Playing for real..." SMH.

"Hey Johnnie! lets go play baseball. Real baseball. But here's the thing: you've chosen of your own free will to play the roll of a T-Baller, so you have to use a wiffle-bat, and I've chosen to be an allstar capable of throwing 100 mph+ fastballs, so I'm going to use this baseball air-cannon. We are going to have so much fun..."

Right? What i got from my conversations on forum, discord and in game gave me basicly, that:

• for some people, the "experience of fighting for your life" is enough, and that is fine;
• for others, pvp should not exist at all, because they don't like it;
• for yet others, there should be only pvp, because they think so;
• and some belive, that the game is simply unbalanced.

And no one is wrong here.

So that simply punishes solo & PG players for no reason whatsoever.

Can't you think of something other than a stick to beat people with to entice them to do something they inherently don't want to do?

Bit sad really.

Yep. We can't punish solo/pg'swhile giving open more. Solo and Pg's should stay the same, while open shoule give some kind of a bonus for the risk taken. That's all.
Edit: ie: taking away from solo/pg's is bad.

 

[Robert Maynard]

IF Elite had rewards for being a prey and winining, then people would play in open. And maybe even be better at pvp.

Some might - and some of those may make use of the block feature.

Then there's the issue that some router's default settings make it difficult to instance with any other players.

The rewards would have to be quite significant to encourage a player to enjoy being "prey" to a leaching pirate - and if they were significant there'd be more incentive to game the system to earn the rewards through uncontested encounters. Frontier learned early that some players will collude if it is possible.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Very much this. The more unassuming a ship is, the better - more experienced players obviously see through it but every now and then you get someone who thinks their Corvette makes them ruler of the galaxy

For all I care, that Corvette owner can be ruler of whatever.

I am happy with my speedy space van!

 

[Alsteif]

Some might - and some of those may make use of the block feature.

Then there's the issue that some router's default settings make it difficult to instance with any other players.

The rewards would have to be quite significant to encourage a player to enjoy being "prey" to a leaching pirate - and if they were significant there'd be more incentive to game the system to earn the rewards through uncontested encounters. Frontier learned early that some players will collude if it is possible.

Obviously. The point is that while open should give a bonus/reward to people who enjoy pvp content, solo and pg's should stay as they are, with lucrative existing and lucrative rewards, playing with either friends/choosen people or npc's.
NO one want's to take away credits per hour from people, who can't or don't want to play in open.
But playing in open - which has some risks to it, could have an incentive to actually playing in there, where you can be killed by another player.
Of course - it shoudn't be a flat bonus just for playing in open. The galaxy is way too large, people would just hide in systems. It would need to be a bonus to an activity, related to pvp/piracy/playing with people.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

On the other hand, why is adversity with the possibility of loss and setback seen as an inherent negative?

If one's idea of good game design is one where risk is non-existent and no one ever loses, then they're not describing a game so much as a permanent tutorial mode.

 

[Robert Maynard]

On the other hand, why is adversity with the possibility of loss and setback seen as an inherent negative?

If one's idea of good game design is one where risk is non-existent and no one ever loses, then they're not describing a game so much as a permanent tutorial mode.

Is loss at the guns of a player "fun" or is a tedious waste of precious game time....?

I don't expect that many are asking for no risk from the game - and Frontier set the challenge posed by the PvE game.