Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos

[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos
I personally think it is entirely about the players, a small percentage may have once viewed (and still do) OPEN as a chance (as someone else cleverly put it) for PwP but more and more come to the game with the view that OPEN is mainly for the purpose of PvP.

The mantra seems to be that you should expect that someone will attack you at some point in OPEN but it feels like that many view OPEN as only being there for that reason. There is a distinction.
 

Riverside

Riverside
Sylow said:
Their idea was that we'd have something like in an old game MUD, UO, Tibia or to some degree EvE: while some people would try to create a mess, others would protect the area and take down the bad guys. Players policing their area of space can be interesting gameplay.

What FD were utterly unaware of were just a few small details: how big the galaxy of ED actually is, that somebody implemented a P2P system and that the game would use instances. These limitations mean that policing an area is basically impossible, while creating trouble is incredibly easy. (The ones policing have to find exactly the one person creating trouble, which can be really hard when the game just puts them in different instances. In contrast the troublemaker is not limited in that way. Any person who's placed in the same instance as him can be a target. )

But hey, I guess FD really had no chance to know that FD would decide to implement things this way... :D ;)
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Hotspots, or pinch points (like the jump gates in Eve) are where emergent content happens. In ED's case, for those that want it, those that don't can switch modes & all PvP threat is completely eliminated. I generally play in Open but if I were to switch to solo I could visit any system in the bubble & poke around without having to look over my shoulder. But that's boring (for me) so generally I stick to Open.

But I'm not looking for PvP, I'm looking for 'intel' to find out what other players are up to & to get that I need to be in Open really. Or I suppose I could just use 3rd party tools like discord & stuff that trivialises teamwork & grapevines, eliminating most of the fog of war that allows opportunities for mistakes & wrong assumptions to stir up the pot ;)

I think the basic gameplay elements & dilemmas created are excellent, but if I want to go to Deciat to actually engineer a ship (rather than to meet people) I'll probably just go in Solo & the game allows that.
 

Vetinari

V
Riverside said:
In ED's case, for those that want it, those that don't can switch modes & all PvP threat is completely eliminated. I generally play in Open but if I were to switch to solo I could visit any system in the bubble & poke around without having to look over my shoulder.
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Or you could play on XB. Seriously. I cant speak for PS but have watched a player go round nearly all the bubble engineers repeatedly the past few weeks including Deciat on 3 separate occasions and not once seen a single player. Everywhere I go including sites of scientific interest have minimum 3 FCs and not one sign of a player.

Incidentally theres a bit on XB where I can see that 0.15% of players on XB have bought an FC. I dont have any way of telling what is counted as a player (a purchaser, a recent player, someone who played the tutorial once?) nor how many people actually bought the game. But it does imply a LOT of FCs are PC owners as well. Anybody get any stats for PS?
 

Riverside

Riverside
Vetinari said:
Or you could play on XB. Seriously. I cant speak for PS but have watched a player go round nearly all the bubble engineers repeatedly the past few weeks including Deciat on 3 separate occasions and not once seen a single player. Everywhere I go including sites of scientific interest have minimum 3 FCs and not one sign of a player.

Incidentally theres a bit on XB where I can see that 0.15% of players on XB have bought an FC. I dont have any way of telling what is counted as a player (a purchaser, a recent player, someone who played the tutorial once?) nor how many people actually bought the game. But it does imply a LOT of FCs are PC owners as well. Anybody get any stats for PS?
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Okay I take your point about consoles not being as well populated, but generally I want to meet the other Cmdrs operating in the system, I'm just not specifically looking for PvP. If it happens it happens, and I accept that risk that just as in real life, very very occasionally someone will lack self-restraint when I meet & greet them.
 
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PeLucheuh

PeLucheuh
[VR] CaptainPugwash said:
The main issue I have with this is that pure killing is just too easy in most cases. Why should they accept a friend request from someone who has just killed them? The majority (understandably) won’t. Why not make the gank more of a challenge by for example sniping a few internal modules or using smaller ships with less firepower. Get them to solve a riddle or else they die, Use your imagination!
Most gankers are just lazy.
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Victims are even more lazy. Surviving is the easiest thing to do. Though, it requires to acknowledge the game’s rules and mechanics and adapt to the environment the player is playing in. But yeah it is always easier to blame someone else than ourself.
 

Stelar 7

Stelar 7
galahad2069 said:
If someone leaves a game just because they fell victim to a random opponent in the level 60 dungeon after having chosen the hardest possible difficulty level in the login window, then good riddance, maybe the game isn't for them after all.
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What does that have to do with E:D? There are no level caps, or levels. Talking about aggressive players like they are a difficulty level is pretty silly too.

Gankers aren't a threat to experienced players. So calling them a difficulty level is pretty ridiculous.

They are a trap that can diminish the fun of new players. Not something I'd pat myself on the back for.
 

Sir Ganksalot

Sir Ganksalot
Stelar 7 said:
Not really,

Though the owner is the game dev I suppose so owne4 might be a bad word. It's really about the number of dog poops one has to deal with to enjoy the park with others. On my playtimes the poop is barely noticeable, however other times it seems almost unavoidable, especially over in Deciat. Also for some reason the poop only seems to want to stick to my hauler shoes and not the sportie combat ones...
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LMAO, this analogy....
Yeah I guess that makes sense 😂
 

Danquememe

Danquememe
Sylow said:
Their idea was that we'd have something like in an old game MUD, UO, Tibia or to some degree EvE: while some people would try to create a mess, others would protect the area and take down the bad guys. Players policing their area of space can be interesting gameplay.

What FD were utterly unaware of were just a few small details: how big the galaxy of ED actually is, that somebody implemented a P2P system and that the game would use instances. These limitations mean that policing an area is basically impossible, while creating trouble is incredibly easy.
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This nails it in a lot of respects, and now consider this: you're a player looking to get guaranteed excitement when you login.

You could choose to limit your interaction to just lawful activities, and only against ships meeting X and Y requirements, and so forth.

But then layer the size of the galaxy, the instancing issues, etc that you've just laid out.

Now: how likely is it you'll get "action" each time you login?

This is, in fact, a fundamental problem with the game. There are lots of people who come to Elite seeking gaming challenge, and let me assure you, the challenge between human and NPC is immeasurably different.

Every NPC flies pretty much exactly alike - they just have better gear as they get higher and higher combat rank.

Human pilots are all different. Some do similar things, but they are eminently unpredictable.

I hate to say it, but human pilots are simply far better "content" than any NPC. This is true for most games, and especially so for Elite.

If you've read this far, I'm sure you've followed the chain of reasoning:
Ganking is what happens when a human player seeking the most efficient source of entertainment chooses to maximize their return on (time) investment.

This statement is not meant to be construed as a rationalization nor justification for "immoral" in-game behavior. But I do think it helps explain the popularity of ganking among PVP -oriented players.

Last night, my friend Cow and I hung out in Deciat. We ended up having nonstop PVP battles with other gankers for hours. It was a lot of fun. I got to have a battle with one of my favorite lawfuls, which I survived only because he ran out of ammo. I also got "legit" 1v1 engagements with far more experienced players - which I lost - that were great learning experiences.

Deciat is a complete warzone, because players go there to find other players to PVP with. San Tu and Shinrarta are as well, but traffic reports indicate that Deciat is, typically, the best place to find "action," and thereby get the most, ahem, bang for your buck. There's a rationale to it, in other words, and it's not necessarily even about the stereotypical "gank the newbie in the Sidewinder for the lulz." It's just that those players get caught in the literal crossfire that consumes everyone who enters Deciat on a busy day/night/whatever.
 
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TiberiusDuval

T
Danquememe said:
This nails it in a lot of respects, and now consider this: you're a player looking to get guaranteed excitement when you login.

You could choose to limit your interaction to just lawful activities, and only against ships meeting X and Y requirements, and so forth.

But then layer the size of the galaxy, the instancing issues, etc that you've just laid out.

Now: how likely is it you'll get "action" each time you login?

This is, in fact, a fundamental problem with the game. There are lots of people who come to Elite seeking gaming challenge, and let me assure you, the challenge between human and NPC is immeasurably different.

Every NPC flies pretty much exactly alike - they just have better gear as they get higher and higher combat rank.

Human pilots are all different. Some do similar things, but they are eminently unpredictable.
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Considering that many NB pilots simply panic and don't controll at all, some of your targets are SIGNIFICANTLY easier than NPC's. Also NPC's to certain extent scale up following your combat rank. Your favoured prey generally doesn't. Also many human pilots fly WEAKER ships than common NPC. Either for reason (min maxing, exploration) or ignorance.
 

[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos

[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos
Vetinari said:
Or you could play on XB. Seriously. I cant speak for PS but have watched a player go round nearly all the bubble engineers repeatedly the past few weeks including Deciat on 3 separate occasions and not once seen a single player. Everywhere I go including sites of scientific interest have minimum 3 FCs and not one sign of a player.

Incidentally theres a bit on XB where I can see that 0.15% of players on XB have bought an FC. I dont have any way of telling what is counted as a player (a purchaser, a recent player, someone who played the tutorial once?) nor how many people actually bought the game. But it does imply a LOT of FCs are PC owners as well. Anybody get any stats for PS?
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The only stat I've ever looked at (and it was in the last couple of weeks) was the achievement unlocked for buying your first ship. 49% of PS players have unlocked it. Now I don't know how many play on the PS, but my guess is, if only half played enough to purchase a new ship, at least half again are unlikely to have purchased an FC. When I log on later I'll have a look art the carrier trophies.
 

Sylow

Sylow
Danquememe said:
If you've read this far, I'm sure you've followed the chain of reasoning:
Ganking is what happens when a human player seeking the most efficient source of entertainment chooses to maximize their return on (time) investment.
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I have read this far and say that the last sentence is exactly where you went wrong. Or at least it was wrong when i still was involved in PvP. At that time the most efficient source of the mentioned entertainment was to contact the fight club and turn up there.

Guaranteed fights among people who also were interested in fighting. No shooting at beginners in Sidewinders or casual players in T7s. But other dedicated combat players of different skill levels, in ships set up for the task. Single or in wings. An actual challenge and actually interesting fights. On demand. No need to chase anybody, no need to interdict a victim, just go there and fight. Clearly the actually most efficient source of getting this kind of entertainment.

In contrast ganking is defined by attacking people who are not interested in being attacked. Also, you mention Deciat. A system with a not combat oriented engineer. It indeed seems to be the primary place for ganking. Did you ever ask yourself, why it would exactly be that system? The simple answer is: because there you have a chance to find people who are not set up to fight, neither in mentality nor on their ship layout. Easy targets. This and nothing else is why Deciat is such a ganking hotspot: To be able to kill people while reducing the risk of actually having to face somebody who's optimized to fight back.

If what you write is true, that you do it for the challenge, then look up the fight club. (I actually don't know if it still is active, but i would be very surprised if they have shut down their operation. ) Use the terms "duels", "wing fights" or "PvP" in general. Leave the term "gank" to what it means: trying to get easy kills on targets which are not prepared to fight back.

Of course, the fight club also has one massive requirement, which many gankers are unable to meet: being able to communicate. That all by itself is way above and beyond the capability of most gankers, effectively blocking them from ever accessing it. (Which on the other hand, when i turned up there, was the big advantage for me. Communication is what changed my opponent there from "an NPC with variable challenge rating" to an actually interesting person. You fight and you talk. The banter before the fight as well as the "congrats" in the end, the commeradrie instead of the lust for the primitive kill of a weaker target is what, at least in my eyes, puts it on a higher level. )
 
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Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Watt Port in Enayex still hosts organised PvP (in Sideys ;)) every Thursday night I think - the rules are quite fun too... (no, I've not joined in, but it was one of my 'home' stations for a while)

I gather the skill exhibited by those pilots to be quite exceptional too!
 

galahad2069

G
Stelar 7 said:
What does that have to do with E:D? There are no level caps, or levels. Talking about aggressive players like they are a difficulty level is pretty silly too.
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No, it's not.
A harder difficulty level usually means nothing more than tougher opponents with more hitpoints, more damage and/or better AI.
What matters is how easy it is to defeat these opponents, whether or not they are NPC's or players is irrelevant in this analogy, since NPC's are braindead easy in ED and players happen to be the only real threat.

Stelar 7 said:
Gankers aren't a threat to experienced players. So calling them a difficulty level is pretty ridiculous.
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And the level 100 boss isn't a real threat to an experienced player who is using premium gear and whatnot. So calling the difficulty level that allows you to meet such opponents ingame, well, a difficulty level, is ridiculous... oh wait.

Stelar 7 said:
They are a trap that can diminish the fun of new players. Not something I'd pat myself on the back for.
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Speak for yourself. They definitely did not diminish my fun when I was a new player.
Besides, similarly to most games, players have options in ED as well. They can always choose a mode in which there are only easier opponents.
 

Sylow

Sylow
Rat Catcher said:
Watt Port in Enayex still hosts organised PvP (in Sideys ;)) every Thursday night I think - the rules are quite fun too... (no, I've not joined in, but it was one of my 'home' stations for a while)

I gather the skill exhibited by those pilots to be quite exceptional too!
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Wow! I didn't even know of that. And actually, Sidey-PvP sounds like fun and also affordable.

May i please know which group does that or under which name this is run? I'd be curious on the rules, although i guess Thursday night won't be easy for me... (but alas, at some time i'll have to get rid of some vacation days and traveling around currently also is not possible... time will tell, if i might manage. :) )

Edit: Removed an ugly typo. You can still see in Bigmaecs reply on how ugly it was, but i had to correct it. :D
 
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Bigmaec

Bigmaec
Sylow said:
Wow! I didn't even know of that. And actually, Sidey-PvP sounds like fun and also affordable.

Pay i please know which group does that or under which name this is run? I'd be curious on the rules, although i guess Thursday night won't be easy for me... (but alas, at some time i'll have to get rid of some vacation days and traveling around currently also is not possible... time will tell, if i might manage. :) )
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Isn't that organized by Exigeous?
 
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