Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[Danquememe]

But are the developers scripted the bandits in Kingdom Come equally evil?

I've not played Kingdom Come so have no comment on those devs, but if we're talking about Dark Souls and Miyazaki... I'll not lie, there are moments where I feel he's a sadistic .

But then you watch one of those developer videos From Software put out, and it's clear that Miyazaki is very much more the producer / visionary and not that great of a gamer (relatively speaking). There's one video where one of the devs say they actually calibrate the bosses on what Miyazaki himself is actually capable of beating, without help. Which, considering he is their boss, makes the scene pretty funny.

In fact, the only time I can remember truly raging at a game was never due to something that happened in multiplayer. It's when I encounter what feels like unfair boss/mob mechanics, or tedious nonsense, or the game not letting me actually just play it (the aforementioned intro/tutorial to Spider-Man on PS4, for example).

Multiplayer, by comparison - normally, whatever another player can do to me, I know that with time and practice, I could in theory do back to them. The playing field is even and fair (in the sense of "equality of opportunity" if not "equality of outcome"). Some players are above my level and I may never beat them, but that's just life: some people are just that good, and it's possible I'm not one of them. But there are still plenty of other opponents, and human opponents are always the most interesting, for me. Their difficulty scaling is all over the chart, and their reactions are hard to predict. There is no AI that even remotely comes close.

This is why, honestly, even as a ganker, I try to extend the offer of friendship to every player I can. I do not wish ill on the players of this game, nor any others. If there's something I can help them with in-game - even as I destroy their spaceship pixels from time to time, which is of course a feature of the game - then I will do it, and gladly. I understand that my motives will not always and may never be understood, I can only try to be consistent in my actions and hope that enough will pick up that I'm here to be an opponent to them, but not a personal enemy. My goal is to make the game a little spicier for them, that's it and nothing more. And if I can help them - the way fellow players have always helped each other in these games - then I will do it.

I know this is complicated and sounds like mixed messaging, but it's as honest and accurate a summation of my ethos as I can get. I'll work on getting the wordcount down.

 

[Danquememe]

Yamato still flying regularly?

He's still offering coaching advice via the GCI Discord; I don't know the answer to whether he's playing the actual game, though.

 

[Danquememe]

Some of them don't choose it because they specifically want to get ganked, you know. Some of "them" choose it because they want to meet other people (and no, Mobius isn't even close to that, even with its member count).

Not saying they shouldn't expect danger lurking around the corner, I agree there, that's actually another draw for me, but don't make the mistake of stating that every single player clicking Open does so because they choose to play pew pew all the time. It's not the only thing you can do in this game.

I wish the Wing Mission scaling wasn't so broken; if you're in the early game, and wanting to play with buddies, you really don't have that many immediately available co-op missions available.

We've talked about this before in this thread, but Wing Missions seem to usually feature a lot of pretty high level opponents (obviously I'm talking about the combat ones primarily). The kind that will melt somebody just getting going in their Sidewinder or Cobra or whatever. I have no idea why the missions offered aren't keyed to the level of the player requesting them, but they don't seem to be.

Not directly related, I'm sad to hear that Mobius isn't more populated / popular. That's often recommended as a good solution for folks seeking co-op PVE without PVP, but if that's not the case, it's a bummer to learn it.

 

[Danquememe]

I don't WANT to spend 99% of my first 300 hrs of playing time grinding to build a Murderhoboat and learning how to git gud at pew pew.

I've done that, exactly that; the grinding part absolutely sucks, and the gitting gud part I'm still working on, but is at least fun.

It's the longest, dullest and most tedious frontloading I've ever had to do in any videogame, but I am happy to say it's finally paying off. The PVP community in this game is full of super cool opponents. Many of whom happen to incidentally be gankers.

Sometimes the "organic 1v1s" are mostly indistinguishable from ganking, but it's really not meant with malice; it's more like, fly in Shin or Deciat, and get "an invitation you can't refuse" to participate in a fight. The way you decline, of course, is by evading and high waking.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Multiplayer, by comparison - normally, whatever another player can do to me, I know that with time and practice, I could in theory do back to them. The playing field is even and fair (in the sense of "equality of opportunity" if not "equality of outcome"). Some players are above my level and I may never beat them, but that's just life: some people are just that good, and it's possible I'm not one of them. But there are still plenty of other opponents, and human opponents are always the most interesting, for me. Their difficulty scaling is all over the chart, and their reactions are hard to predict. There is no AI that even remotely comes close.

In theory, sure. In practice, not so much. Way back when I started multiplayer gaming in the 90s, I had high hopes for it as an improvement over poor and predictable AI. As has become painfully clear, the 'high end pro-bois' are 99% of the time just following the meta, cheesing and exploiting whereever possible. The more dynamic a game becomes, the more opportunity for cheesing/exploiting and the bigger part it becomes. Playing a shooter on a tiny screen so your eyes need to move as little as possible, with the visual details turned all the way down so nobody can hide in dense vegetation. Or flying a spaceship with a mouse in a cookie-cutter build obtained after hundreds of hours of shallow grinding.. Oh joy. And I am sure your mates with the funky-colored hairdos can tell you of the time they got all their engineered mods taken by FD after the overwhelming majority of the PvP community was caught cheating. Because Heaven's Forbid you would gank a T6 with a wing of FDLs without the perfect mods. Imagine the challenge such a situation would present!

Lets be real: Ganking a T6 in an FDL is not done because it is 'interesting' or the opponent acts 'unpredictable'. It is done because it is easy. CQC is a much more regulated and balanced affair,: there just isn't enough room to grind your way to the top, there are far fewer exploits, everyone is roughly flying equal ships. People looking for a challenge, interesting opponents, unpredictable behavior and skill over grind are there. The "lets kill a beginner in a T6" folks won't come near it and instead spend their time writing lengthy novels on why what they are doing is anything but the obvious.

Its all good in the end, but I myself prefer when people look at a tool with a sharp-edged, typically rectangular, metal blade and a long handle, used for digging or cutting earth, sand, turf, etc. and just call it a spade already.

 

[Danquememe]

The more dynamic a game becomes, the more opportunity for cheesing/exploiting and the bigger part it becomes.

That is one advantage of the flight sims I've come from - the planes are what they are, there's no grinding or whatever. Some are objectively better than others, but most can be use with some degree of success if you pick your fights and play to your strengths.

Elite, because it's not bound by historical performance data or similar, means that there's absolutely an upgrade requirement to be competitive, and a meta has of course developed. And the meta ships themselves are absurdly overpowered compared to un-engineered ships; that's power creep in a nutshell.

However - once you've gotten that build created, and all your relevant engineers unlocked, you are now back to something approaching balance, from a skill perspective. But of course, there are a lot of variables, and there are meta builds, and then counter-meta builds, and off meta builds, and all that. There's a lot to dive into there, and a lot to learn.

CQC is a much more regulated and balanced affair,: there just isn't enough room to grind your way to the top, there are far fewer exploits, everyone is roughly flying equal ships. People looking for a challenge, interesting opponents, unpredictable behavior and skill over grind are there.

It definitely feels constrained. The TTK is much, much lower than in actual Open 1v1s, there are the tremendously gamey power-ups, there is map knowledge. Sure, I play it, and enjoy it for what it is, but it's a far cry from the diversity and interest of the wider game. I don't agree that this is where the truly skillful players wind up - they are, in fact, the ones playing arranged wingfights and whatnot in Open.

 

[Revenant69]

Please allow me to paraphrase, Mr. Skippy: "I condescend to people using/creating meta builds, honing their aiming/flying skills for hundreds if not thousands of hours and using a control method available to all as replacement for ever getting good myself. That way I can appear superior while never being a skilled player myself."

Nice strategy.

 

[Danquememe]

I'm replying to this bit separately, as I want to make a clear distinction between my comments above about competitive PVP, the meta, CQC and so forth, and ganking.

Lets be real: Ganking a T6 in an FDL is not done because it is 'interesting' or the opponent acts 'unpredictable'. It is done because it is easy.

Let's be even more real than that:
Ganking is done because a target presents itself.

There's no way to know who is going to drop into the system next - it truly is entirely unpredictable. It might be a newbie in a Cobra, and it might be Yamato in an FDL.

A lot of players who have never ganked may think that the gankers are lying in wait, and letting the "hard" targets go by while only preying on the "easy" ones. And, by your logic, the easier, the better.

Oh, to be so spoiled for choice.

The truth is this: if a "hard" target shows up - meaning someone with a high level combat build - they are likely going to be gankers themselves, and if not explicitly out looking for ganks, at least looking for 1v1s. They are almost certainly going to pull you regardless of whether or not you want it. Which, hey - fair play, right? You're a ganker, you get it.

Beyond that - you see the bandwidth spike, you identify the target, you pull them. You see what the surprise waiting in store for you is. It might be a Mostly Harmless in an Asp Explorer. It might be Yamato in an FDL. You literally have no way of knowing what's coming next, what they'll be flying, or what they will do. Or when they will get here.

So you wait. You see what the universe delivers up to you. And you pull it.

That's it. That's ganking target selection. You pull what appears.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Please allow me to paraphrase, Mr. Skippy: "I condescend to people using/creating meta builds, honing their aiming/flying skills for hundreds if not thousands of hours and using a control method available to all as replacement for ever getting good myself. That way I can appear superior while never being a skilled player myself."

Nice strategy.

That's just putting words in my mouth plus a poor generic insult. Not sure what your goal was with that post, but best of luck with it.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I'm replying to this bit separately, as I want to make a clear distinction between my comments above about competitive PVP, the meta, CQC and so forth, and ganking.


Let's be even more real than that:
Ganking is done because a target presents itself.

There's no way to know who is going to drop into the system next - it truly is entirely unpredictable. It might be a newbie in a Cobra, and it might be Yamato in an FDL.

A lot of players who have never ganked may think that the gankers are lying in wait, and letting the "hard" targets go by while only preying on the "easy" ones. And, by your logic, the easier, the better.

Oh, to be so spoiled for choice.

The truth is this: if a "hard" target shows up - meaning someone with a high level combat build - they are likely going to be gankers themselves, and if not explicitly out looking for ganks, at least looking for 1v1s. They are almost certainly going to pull you regardless of whether or not you want it. Which, hey - fair play, right? You're a ganker, you get it.

Beyond that - you see the bandwidth spike, you identify the target, you pull them. You see what the surprise waiting in store for you is. It might be a Mostly Harmless in an Asp Explorer. It might be Yamato in an FDL. You literally have no way of knowing what's coming next, what they'll be flying, or what they will do. Or when they will get here.

So you wait. You see what the universe delivers up to you. And you pull it.

That's it. That's ganking target selection. You pull what appears.

Well I have been ganked while flying with somewhat tough ship, thats true. But on other hand I have seen various ominous lurkers getting somewhere else fast when appearing with mean looking ship. Like FDL. Or leaving me in peace... Perhaps they were not REAL gankers?

 

[Danquememe]

Well I have been ganked while flying with somewhat tough ship, thats true. But on other hand I have seen various ominous lurkers getting somewhere else fast when appearing with mean looking ship. Like FDL. Or leaving me in peace... Perhaps they were not REAL gankers?

It's hard to know if this is confirmation bias, dumb luck, or otherwise.

I'd have pulled you, unless I was already pulling someone else.

And sent you a friend request afterwards, regardless of outcome.

 

[Ian Skippy]

However - once you've gotten that build created, and all your relevant engineers unlocked, you are now back to something approaching balance, from a skill perspective. But of course, there are a lot of variables, and there are meta builds, and then counter-meta builds, and off meta builds, and all that. There's a lot to dive into there, and a lot to learn.

It definitely feels constrained. The TTK is much, much lower than in actual Open 1v1s, there are the tremendously gamey power-ups, there is map knowledge. Sure, I play it, and enjoy it for what it is, but it's a far cry from the diversity and interest of the wider game. I don't agree that this is where the truly skillful players wind up - they are, in fact, the ones playing arranged wingfights and whatnot in Open.

The big difference is that the TTK in Open is so massively absurdly insanely high that literally everyone who is not a complete beginner is immortal. You can only die if you agree to it, and actively refuse to not be destroyed. That completely takes the wind out of any proper PvP context. In CQC you will die, even if you try your very best to stay alive. In Open that situation simply does not exist.

I'm replying to this bit separately, as I want to make a clear distinction between my comments above about competitive PVP, the meta, CQC and so forth, and ganking.

Let's be even more real than that:
Ganking is done because a target presents itself.

There's no way to know who is going to drop into the system next - it truly is entirely unpredictable. It might be a newbie in a Cobra, and it might be Yamato in an FDL.

A lot of players who have never ganked may think that the gankers are lying in wait, and letting the "hard" targets go by while only preying on the "easy" ones. And, by your logic, the easier, the better.

Oh, to be so spoiled for choice.

The truth is this: if a "hard" target shows up - meaning someone with a high level combat build - they are likely going to be gankers themselves, and if not explicitly out looking for ganks, at least looking for 1v1s. They are almost certainly going to pull you regardless of whether or not you want it. Which, hey - fair play, right? You're a ganker, you get it.

What you describe is how people want the game to be, not what it currently is. I've over 3000 hours or so in Open. I've spend over a year flying from Shinrarta and been to Deciat over and over. When you fly in a 'godship' such as an FdL with Elite combat rank you are attacked zero times. When you fly a 'PITA ship' such as a courier with Elite combat rank you are attacked zero times. The only times I am attacked by gankers since having Elite combat rank is when I fly a T7 or some such for fun.

This whole 'gankers in Deciat are excited to attack an elite fdl on their own, they cant wait to see what will happen' is simply not true. They will ignore you and wait for the AspX looking for its first FSD mod.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

It's hard to know if this is confirmation bias, dumb luck, or otherwise.

I'd have pulled you, unless I was already pulling someone else.

And sent you a friend request afterwards, regardless of outcome.

Would be somewhat boring experience for you. I'd just boost towards you and start high jump No way you could take down in 1v1 engineered Cutter with prismatics, engineered armour, hrbs mrbs before jump sequence is completed Against exploration Krait of mine you probably would be more succesfull.

 

[Danquememe]

This whole 'gankers in Deciat are excited to attack an elite fdl on their own, they cant wait to see what will happen' is simply not true. They will ignore you and wait for the AspX looking for its first FSD mod.

It's possible that they know you and know they can't beat you, or that you're experienced enough that you'll just immediately high wake. Or maybe you're a reverski guy. I really don't know; I've never engaged with you in-game.

Couriers are extremely fast and you likely have yours setup in a manner in which only another Courier has even a ghost of a chance to catch it.

So... there may be reasons, I don't know. I wasn't there and can only speak for myself - I trust that it's understood that all of us are merely sharing our own opinions, perspectives and experiences. None of us are arguing from authority because, at the end, we're all just gamers playing a game and having our experiences. I think it's fun to talk about them here!

Send me a friend request - same name in-game as here. I'll attack your Elite FDL until you get sick of it. With my Competent level Krait. Think of the kills you can farm! For me, it's just practice and experience. For you - you can make me eat that 10M rebuy each time. You can put it to a filthy ganker. What's not to love?

 

[Danquememe]

Would be somewhat boring experience for you. I'd just boost towards you and start high jump No way you could take down in 1v1 engineered Cutter with prismatics, engineered armour, hrbs mrbs before jump sequence is completed Against exploration Krait of mine you probably would be more succesfull.

If only you knew just how truly awful I am at PVP.

Honestly, most people have a fair chance and it's a small risk to give it a go, assuming they're in a halfway decent combat ship. My aim is poor, my tactics are weak, my willingness to die is high.

Give it a go, why don't you!

 

[Bigmaec]

The big difference is that the TTK in Open is so massively absurdly insanely high that literally everyone who is not a complete beginner is immortal. You can only die if you agree to it, and actively refuse to not be destroyed. That completely takes the wind out of any proper PvP context. In CQC you will die, even if you try your very best to stay alive. In Open that situation simply does not exist.



What you describe is how people want the game to be, not what it currently is. I've over 3000 hours or so in Open. I've spend over a year flying from Shinrarta and been to Deciat over and over. When you fly in a 'godship' such as an FdL with Elite combat rank you are attacked zero times. When you fly a 'PITA ship' such as a courier with Elite combat rank you are attacked zero times. The only times I am attacked by gankers since having Elite combat rank is when I fly a T7 or some such for fun.

This whole 'gankers in Deciat are excited to attack an elite fdl on their own, they cant wait to see what will happen' is simply not true. They will ignore you and wait for the AspX looking for its first FSD mod.

It's possible that they know you and know they can't beat you, or that you're experienced enough that you'll just immediately high wake. Or maybe you're a reverski guy. I really don't know; I've never engaged with you in-game.

Couriers are extremely fast and you likely have yours setup in a manner in which only another Courier has even a ghost of a chance to catch it.

So... there may be reasons, I don't know. I wasn't there and can only speak for myself - I trust that it's understood that all of us are merely sharing our own opinions, perspectives and experiences. None of us are arguing from authority because, at the end, we're all just gamers playing a game and having our experiences. I think it's fun to talk about them here!

Send me a friend request - same name in-game as here. I'll attack your Elite FDL until you get sick of it. With my Competent level Krait. Think of the kills you can farm! For me, it's just practice and experience. For you - you can make me eat that 10M rebuy each time. You can put it to a filthy ganker. What's not to love?

I'd say you're both correct

There are gankers out there who would take on any FdL jumping in, and there are those out there who won't.
Source: my anecdotal evidence

 

[TiberiusDuval]

If only you knew just how truly awful I am at PVP.

Honestly, most people have a fair chance and it's a small risk to give it a go, assuming they're in a halfway decent combat ship. My aim is poor, my tactics are weak, my willingness to die is high.

Give it a go, why don't you!

Well considering that my current and likely long time base of operations is in Colonia region, even transferred all my ships there (and I'm really not going to fly FDL or Cutter to Bubble and back), chances are remote. Secondly my main ship is made to do about two things. Blast NPC's with longish loiter time at haz res'es, and be tough enough to survive gank attempts. Against more agile opponent knowing his business it is not going to be great fighter.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

The big difference is that the TTK in Open is so massively absurdly insanely high that literally everyone who is not a complete beginner is immortal. You can only die if you agree to it, and actively refuse to not be destroyed. That completely takes the wind out of any proper PvP context. In CQC you will die, even if you try your very best to stay alive. In Open that situation simply does not exist.

I have to say you are about right, about only times I have died with my Cutter after engineering it were when I got stubborn and tried to fight it out. With prompt high wake, no real risk of getting blasted to pieces.

 

[Danquememe]

Well considering that my current and likely long time base of operations is in Colonia region, even transferred all my ships there (and I'm really not going to fly FDL or Cutter to Bubble and back), chances are remote.

I see what you did there, and I like it, hehe.

BUT! I will someday in the not too distant future be visiting Colonia so I can meet the engineers there for the first time. So it's actually more likely than you think!

Feel free to send a friend request: CMDR D'ANQUEMEME

This goes for anyone looking for easy kills ganker EWACS more clown faces in their friends list whatever you get the idea

 

[Ian Skippy]

It's possible that they know you and know they can't beat you, or that you're experienced enough that you'll just immediately high wake. Or maybe you're a reverski guy. I really don't know; I've never engaged with you in-game.

Couriers are extremely fast and you likely have yours setup in a manner in which only another Courier has even a ghost of a chance to catch it.

True, my Courier and Vipers (even in combat fitting) are ultra-high speed, have chaff and are so small that you really have no hope in hell to kill it before it is out of range. And even my Multi-role FDL has no plenty of shields that I can finish my drink and then high-wake. But that kinda is the point: the game balance of ED is so weird (which is a polite way of saying really really really bad) that there are no 'legit ganks' against an opponent anywhere close in experience and gear. To kill another player that doesn't want to be killed the 'victim' must be inexperienced and fly a feeble ship. And that is a big reason for why ganking is such a thing. I am sure most PvP players would love to interdict me and blow my shiny FDL up (which would suck as it has 0% paint after all these years). But being decent is skilled enough to defend yourself 100% of the time against even the best PvP player in the game. Its like a game of chess where one of us has only our King and the other has the King and a Knight; nobody is going to win, no matter how skilled the guy with the Knight is. We're wasting each other's time.

So... there may be reasons, I don't know. I wasn't there and can only speak for myself - I trust that it's understood that all of us are merely sharing our own opinions, perspectives and experiences. None of us are arguing from authority because, at the end, we're all just gamers playing a game and having our experiences. I think it's fun to talk about them here!

For sure!

Send me a friend request - same name in-game as here. I'll attack your Elite FDL until you get sick of it. With my Competent level Krait. Think of the kills you can farm! For me, it's just practice and experience. For you - you can make me eat that 10M rebuy each time. You can put it to a filthy ganker. What's not to love?

Feel free to send me one if I take to long, my cmdr name is the same as well. But do note that I am in Colonia, lately don't play all that much (waiting for moar content after six years...) and live in Carcosa. If you decide to come over you'll have to deal with Big Meanies like Bicmaec.