Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Make PowerPlay Open-Only

[Robert Maynard]

The bottom line is that it has to be 50/50 if you get through to be functional, and PP NPCs menacing enough all over to disrupt your play.

Whether it needs to be 50/50 is a matter of opinion - it could be 60/40, or 70/30 for that matter. It depends on how challenging Frontier wished to make it, noting that half of players are at or below median skill. I doubt that many would find being destroyed most of the time to be "fun".

 

[Rubbernuke]

Whether it needs to be 50/50 is a matter of opinion - it could be 60/40, or 70/30 for that matter. It depends on how challenging Frontier wished to make it, noting that half of players are at or below median skill.

The difficulty has to work for the feature, not for the player. The player has to work to overcome the best they can but if you make it too easy solo and PG become opposition free once again. Since Powerplay is optional to begin with it can afford to be more challenging since its semi detached from the core game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The difficulty has to work for the feature, not for the player. The player has to work to overcome the best they can but if you make it too easy solo and PG become opposition free once again.

Players engage in features - so this reads like the feature should only be accessible to some players, not all players - noting, yet again, that the challenge posed by other players is completely optional.

Since Powerplay is optional to begin with it can afford to be more challenging since its semi detached from the core game.

It could, to an extent, yes.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Players engage in features - so this reads like the feature should only be accessible to some players, not all players - noting, yet again, that the challenge posed by other players is completely optional.

Skill needs to be used as a gate, certainly- otherwise, every game feature acts and plays the same. NPCs have to be at least as dangerous as a mid level engineered ship at elite AI (analogous to a wing pirate mission level). But for all modes to be equal, all modes need an equal NPC opposition otherwise the feature can't slow activities enough to matter.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Skill needs to be used as a gate, certainly- otherwise, every game feature acts and plays the same. NPCs have to be at least as dangerous as a mid level engineered ship at elite AI (analogous to a wing pirate mission level).

Skill may need to be used to gate, to an extent, however where the gate sits is up to Frontier.

When I put forward the idea that NPCs should be tailored to the player's ship that does not mean that they need to be engineered - as the player's ship may not be engineered. Just as a player in a minimum risk build, i.e. fully engineered, should face a quite different NPC opponent.

But for all modes to be equal, all modes need an equal NPC opposition otherwise the feature can't slow activities enough to matter.

The conflation between Frontier's repeated statement, i.e. "all game modes are equally valid choices" and the contention that all modes should be equal does not make the former mean the latter. That the player has a choice of game modes does not mean that players in Open should dictate the challenge posed in the other game modes - as the challenge they offer, i.e. PvP, is an optional extra.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It may need to be used to gate, however where the gate sits is up to Frontier.

When I put forward the idea that NPCs should be tailored to the player's ship that does not mean that they need to be engineered - as the player's ship may not be engineered. Just as a player in a minimum risk build, i.e. fully engineered, should face a quite different NPC opponent.

Which, with FDs epic timing has thrown out the window giving engineering to everyone. NPCs need to be engineered otherwise they don't pose a challenge. Its by no accident other high end NPCs have engineering in other places. NPCs have to be universally brutal otherwise its not uniform.

The conflation between Frontier's repeated statement, i.e. "all game modes are equally valid choices" and the contention that all modes should be equal does not make the former mean the latter. That the player has a choice of game modes does not mean that players in Open should dictate the challenge posed in the other game modes - as the challenge they offer, i.e. PvP, is an optional extra.

That statement is meaningless for a competitive mode where all modes have to offer the same base challenge- but more importantly actually offer a challenge to work. NPCs need to prevent players from having a free run to anything.

Since one mode can't dictate what the other can be via difficulty it shreds the need for other modes. Whats needed is uniformity.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which, with FDs epic timing has thrown out the window giving engineering to everyone. NPCs need to be engineered otherwise they don't pose a challenge. Its by no accident other high end NPCs have engineering in other places. NPCs have to be universally brutal otherwise its not uniform.

Not really - as Frontier know how much engineering the player-base with access to Horizons has done and those who receive Horizons on the 27th have done none.

Whether NPCs need to be "brutal" remains a matter of opinion.

That statement is meaningless for a competitive mode where all modes have to offer the same base challenge- but more importantly actually offer a challenge to work. NPCs need to prevent players from having a free run to anything.

Since one mode can't dictate what the other can be via difficulty it shreds the need for other modes. Whats needed is uniformity.

It would seem that Powerplay already offers the same base challenge in every game mode. That that challenge is somewhat lacking is agreed (by me at least) - what is not agreed is to what level it should be increased to.

The need for modes predates Powerplay by some margin and there's no guarantee that the game would even exist if the three game modes had not formed part of the game design from the outset - and Powerplay was consciously implemented in all three game modes.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Not really - as Frontier know how much engineering the player-base with access to Horizons has done and those who receive Horizons on the 27th have done none.

Whether NPCs need to be "brutal" remains a matter of opinion.

Which, is irrelevant. Features have to make people want to actually engineer, otherwise what is the point of having them at all? Set the bar too low and its too easy (as it is now which is causing the problem). Having to invest time is not a sin- nearly every other part of the game requires it, why is Powerplay suddenly exempt when out of all the features its the one most likely (conceptually at least) going to put you in harms way the most?

It would seem that Powerplay already offers the same base challenge in every game mode. That that challenge is somewhat lacking is agreed (by me at least) - what is not agreed is to what level it should be increased to.

Solo and PG offer no challenge- challenge being defined as NPCs pushing back against you making the primary roles of Powerplay less uniformly easy and efficient. Without a wholesale redesign the only route to that is to radically increase NPC aggression and capability in the places that would matter the most.

The need for modes predates Powerplay by some margin and there's no guarantee that the game would even exist if the three game modes had not formed part of the game design from the outset - and Powerplay was consciously implemented in all three game modes.

I'm not arguing about the modes in general because I think they are a good thing. What I am arguing about is that Powerplay as it is does not fit- itexists on the periphery of EDs design overlapping a lot of its features- however these parts it relies on do not combine in a coherent way creating issues and inconsistencies. Only dev time can mitigate the worst of them, and only a lot of dev time can properly address them.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which, is irrelevant. Features have to make people want to actually engineer, otherwise what is the point of having them at all? Set the bar too low and its too easy (as it is now which is causing the problem). Having to invest time is not a sin- nearly every other part of the game requires it, why is Powerplay suddenly exempt when out of all the features its the one most likely (conceptually at least) going to put you in harms way the most?

It may be entirely relevant - as to gate a feature behind "all the engineering" might reduce potential participants to a rather small subset of the player-base.

Equally, set the bar too high and it is too hard - which would cause another problem (albeit for different players).

Arguably AX combat puts one in harms way the most.

Solo and PG offer no challenge- challenge being defined as NPCs pushing back against you making the primary roles of Powerplay less uniformly easy and efficient. Without a wholesale redesign the only route to that is to radically increase NPC aggression and capability in the places that would matter the most.

Whether the redesign would be "wholesale" or whether NPCs need to be changed "radically" remains a matter of opinion.

I'm not arguing about the modes in general because I think they are a good thing. What I am arguing about is that Powerplay as it is does not fit- itexists on the periphery of EDs design overlapping a lot of its features- however these parts it relies on do not combine in a coherent way creating issues and inconsistencies. Only dev time can mitigate the worst of them, and only a lot of dev time can properly address them.

.... and only time will tell what changes Frontier are prepared to make to Powerplay.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It may be entirely relevant - as to gate a feature behind "all the engineering" might reduce potential participants to a rather small subset of the player-base.

Equally, set the bar too high and it is too hard - which would cause another problem (albeit for different players).

Its not gating anything- you can still go out and do it, just you'll be at a disadvantage. Even the assassins powers send after those who defect are toothless when they should be G5 and very scary.

Arguably AX combat puts one in harms way the most.

No it would not, because its POI based and not random- its you going to that location and dropping in. Powerplay is gather and traverse space- PP NPCs should be all over hassling you in a more difficult analogue of a hauling mission.

Whether the redesign would be "wholesale" or whether NPCs need to be changed "radically" remains a matter of opinion.

.... and only time will tell what changes Frontier are prepared to make to Powerplay.

Well, there is only so much you can alter to the current design of Powerplay to improve it. Either FD accept it needs change and does that, fiddles a bit or leaves it (and accepts its low player base which is one of the root causes of its issues to begin with).

 

[RellTyr]

A type of voting system for pledged powers could be interesting, players from each side could vote on going to war or not, what direction they should take, etc.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Its not gating anything- you can still go out and do it, just you'll be at a disadvantage. Even the assassins powers send after those who defect are toothless when they should be G5 and very scary.

True - however it may dissuade players from engaging in it due to a time-gate, i.e. engineering unlocks, gathering, applying experimental effects, etc. - which is a complaint from some of those wishing to be competitive in PvP.

No it would not, because its POI based and not random- its you going to that location and dropping in. Powerplay is gather and traverse space- PP NPCs should be all over hassling you in a more difficult analogue of a hauling mission.

Fair point on the POI basis of AX combat.

In hauling missions, one need only evade the attacker's interdiction once (per system?) for them to cease attempting to interdict.

Well, there is only so much you can alter to the current design of Powerplay to improve it. Either FD accept it needs change and does that, fiddles a bit or leaves it (and accepts its low player base which is one of the root causes of its issues to begin with).

Several options are indeed open.

 

[Rubbernuke]

True - however it may dissuade players from engaging in it due to a time-gate, i.e. engineering unlocks, gathering, applying experimental effects, etc. - which is a complaint from some of those wishing to be competitive in PvP.

Which is a non-gate, when its part of the main game.

In hauling missions, one need only evade the attacker's interdiction once (per system?) for them to cease attempting to interdict.

Which is why upping NPC difficulty is the most basic option, and inferior to Open (where players have no hard rules)- in reality you'd beed to mix it with this to be effective (from my suggestion thread) since NPCs have limited places to attack- and why they need to be hard to compensate for the lack of opportunities:

Fortification and preparation: this uses the hidden trader POI mechanic. You must scan the nav point (so you drop into a potentially dangerous spot) to find your contact to transfer your cargo (which you do by proximity). Each location is different, so it means more variation against bots, allows for more danger (you don't have the protection of a stations guns or no fire zone for NPCs / players). This also gets around pad blocking since...there are no pads. This fits the 'shadow war' premise of Powerplay in that you are fighting a clandestine war. Your contact will be defended by your own power, but any rival PP NPC can drop in to attack.

Several options are indeed open.

Lets hope FD feel getting it right is better than doing a bodge.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is a non-gate, when its part of the main game.

Up to now, engineering has not even been an option for a significant number of players - we'll see how "required" it becomes after Horizons is wrapped into the base game.

Which is why upping NPC difficulty is the most basic option, and inferior to Open (where players have no hard rules)- in reality you'd beed to mix it with this to be effective (from my suggestion thread) since NPCs have limited places to attack- and why they need to be hard to compensate for the lack of opportunities:

It is the most basic option, certainly.

Lets hope FD feel getting it right is better than doing a bodge.

Indeed, noting that what different players think is "right" differs.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Up to now, engineering has not even been an option for a significant number of players - we'll see how "required" it becomes after Horizons is wrapped into the base game.

All advanced features require some form of preparation via investment in skills, ship etc, Powerplay should be no different. You have a difficulty and you either match the level required or you don't engage with that feature. Its why in that NPC idea Powerplay effort scaled the enemies- those who are invested get the hardest challenge while those who graze at the lower ranks get a mild challenge (or none). Far from perfect but better than now.

Indeed, noting that what different players think is "right" differs.

You can design a mode agnostic Powerplay- several people including myself have done so, but it takes effort from FD do do it. So far they don't want to commit very much, and if that persists then the options for anything new with the existing design is limited.

 

[Defacto]

Wow, 32 pages...

I'll give you open only people credit for your passion! But I think Robert Maynard has an important point you're seeing past. Ultimately your ideas completely clash with the fundamental concept for how player interactions are set up in this game: the player can always opt out. Doesn't matter if the players is off on their own doing nothing that affects the universe, or if the player is undermining PP like crazy, or doing BGS shenanigans, they can always opt out of player interactions. Is this exploitable? Yes. Will it make people who would want player interaction go solo for an advantage, impoverishing both their own and others' experience? Yes. Makes PP and BGS botting even harder to stop? Yes. It's also a cornerstone of how this game is designed, for good and bad.

You can make nice and correct arguments all you want, but I think you'll need the suggestion thread of the century if you want FD to even consider changing this. I'll happily cheer you on but I think any suggestion of the type ''make [game concept] open-only'' is even more hopeless than my ''let's go back to beta and rework all the things'' suggestions that I keep pushing into any topic where they are remotely relevant.

The 'basic' solution of upping NPC difficulty has the advantage of not going against the entire design philosophy (however flawed it may be) of player interactions (or non-interaction...) that FD have developed. Quite to the contrary actually, if you go by 'guides', advertisements and ingame information, one would expect things to already be like this! The world of Elite is a dangerous place after all... at least in the backstory and loading screen tips.

 

[Kate Balthazar]

Whatever gets more Powerplay in Open, I support! I run an Open-only Powerplay squadron and we are currently the top Aisling squadron this cycle, we've been hauling, undermining, doing BGS work, and engaging Federal opposition in PVP, and there's been nothing like the presence of Federal commanders to get everyone engaged and excited about Powerplay. My primary motivation was realizing that when the Feds field truly impressive blockades of important stars, with two or three wings of CMDRs, that all the effort they put into coordinating and preparing for that can get bypassed by utilizing instancing mechanics. If at all possible, keeping Powerplay in Open so that our work isn't wasted and all factions can still directly oppose enemy action effectively!

If that can't be done, it would be nice if we had some way to protect or attack systems on a server level. If we had an activity that we could perform to increase NPC presence from our faction in the target system, in a way that would also affect players in Console, Solo and PG, that could be another way to solve the issue. If we could ensure that there are going to be more wings of Deadly/Elite rank ships, especially Anacondas/Corvettes/Cutters interdicting enemy-faction ships in space and appearing in Undermining spawn groups, we could do a lot to resist enemy action by those that we can't enter instances with.

 

[CMDR Foursyth]

but I think you'll need the suggestion thread of the century

What do you think we're building here?

Since everybody is hell-bent on Solo being a valid mode, but are OK with bumping NPC difficulty, I propose that if you enter Solo while carrying PP merits or cargo, you get jumped by 20 ATR any time you enter a system. It's a totally valid way to play PP in Solo and does not in any way invalidate the EULA and back-of-the-box promise that Frontier made - it's just a rebalancing of the game to reflect the emergent nature of complex systems. There - problem solved, Solo lurkers happy, home for tea and medals!

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

I see those solo beckers being happy with wing of recurring g5 engineered (for real) FDL's attacking their haulers and anacondas underbuilds, and this would be npc eqivalent of open power play in valueble expansions.

 

[DemiserofD]

Whatever gets more Powerplay in Open, I support! I run an Open-only Powerplay squadron and we are currently the top Aisling squadron this cycle, we've been hauling, undermining, doing BGS work, and engaging Federal opposition in PVP, and there's been nothing like the presence of Federal commanders to get everyone engaged and excited about Powerplay. My primary motivation was realizing that when the Feds field truly impressive blockades of important stars, with two or three wings of CMDRs, that all the effort they put into coordinating and preparing for that can get bypassed by utilizing instancing mechanics. If at all possible, keeping Powerplay in Open so that our work isn't wasted and all factions can still directly oppose enemy action effectively!

If that can't be done, it would be nice if we had some way to protect or attack systems on a server level. If we had an activity that we could perform to increase NPC presence from our faction in the target system, in a way that would also affect players in Console, Solo and PG, that could be another way to solve the issue. If we could ensure that there are going to be more wings of Deadly/Elite rank ships, especially Anacondas/Corvettes/Cutters interdicting enemy-faction ships in space and appearing in Undermining spawn groups, we could do a lot to resist enemy action by those that we can't enter instances with.

Why don't you try recruiting more solo players, instead? They're beating you on the solo level, which leaves them little reason to engage you in open. If you get enough solo players to make it more competitive, they'll have more incentive to compete with you more directly in open.

You already have the means to compete with them on their level. Use them.