The argument is completly valid and I accept it. I will not use the small team argument at start anymore as I don't really know how many external hours CIG had bought at the beginning of the project.
Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
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Ha ha !
Yep, the whole thing is just an awful joke.
So in other words, when you say it's comparable to the length of development of CP2077, you don't actually know. The whole comparison is just bunk even if you could decide on a start date and provide some support for it rather than just throw random numbers out there.
Just forget about this whole argument, LittleAnt. Even if Cyberpunk was in full production since 2011, here's what CDPR has released in that timeframe:
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings (2011) (PC & Console)
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt (2015) (PC & Console)
The Witcher 3: Hearts of Stone (2015) (PC & Console)
The Witcher 3: Blood & Wine (2016) (PC & Console)
Gwent: The Witcher Card Game & Expansions (2018) (PC & Console)
Here's what CIG has released in that timeframe:
And really, the delay of Cyberpunk 2077 comes down to the awful, terrible things they are having to do to support old consoles. The PC and next-gen stuff were ready to go in November (according to CDPR devs), but they would lose out on anywhere between 6 million to 8 million of retail unit sales over the next 18 months if they scrubbed the console launches for the PS4 and XBone.
When they announced the move to November 19th half a year ago, I was surprised they didn't just make it a next-gen title only. I guess losing out of earning hundreds of millions of dollars probably had something to do with that not happening.
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings (2011) (PC & Console)
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt (2015) (PC & Console)
The Witcher 3: Hearts of Stone (2015) (PC & Console)
The Witcher 3: Blood & Wine (2016) (PC & Console)
Gwent: The Witcher Card Game & Expansions (2018) (PC & Console)
Here's what CIG has released in that timeframe:
And really, the delay of Cyberpunk 2077 comes down to the awful, terrible things they are having to do to support old consoles. The PC and next-gen stuff were ready to go in November (according to CDPR devs), but they would lose out on anywhere between 6 million to 8 million of retail unit sales over the next 18 months if they scrubbed the console launches for the PS4 and XBone.
When they announced the move to November 19th half a year ago, I was surprised they didn't just make it a next-gen title only. I guess losing out of earning hundreds of millions of dollars probably had something to do with that not happening.
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You forgot to put in what CIG released!
dayrth
Volunteer Moderator
No, he didn't
But there is NOTHING there!No, he didn't
It's been years away since 2014. Why shouldn't it be now? Does what they've shown recently prove anything close to finish? They may have tons of assets they barely display hints of what turns assets in a game. And please don't serve me spoilers.
And even if all was almost here, CIG has a big rock in its shoe: the Perfectionist.
Tbf, when i paid for Star Citizen and Squadron 42 back in 2012, i was told that i'd get the games i paid for within an estimated 2 years. I'm still waiting 8 years later for what i paid for, with no indication when they will arrive.
When i paid for Cyberpunk 2077 six weeks ago, i was told i'd be getting the game i paid for in November; this will now be December after a three week delay.
9+ weeks, not 9+ years. A bit of a difference.
CP 2077 hasnt been in development as long as Scammy Citisnt.
So :
- A game (TW2) developed before the period we talk about. Before 2011 CIG will not have been able to deliver a game, CIG simply did not exist at this time.
- A full beautiful AAA game (TW3).
- 2 add-on for WT3 re-using the full existing core game, using the same tools for the development, reusing large parts of the assets ot TW3 and requiring very little core dev to be released = little staff needed to make the most of what they have at disposal
- A small (comparatively to an AAA) game of cards = little staff needed.
In 2011 CIG had almost nothing of that compared to CDPR and almost all the engine/tools/partners tied to the project in 2011 were not tailored for the project that SC/SQ42 would become after the kickstarter campaing.
Also CDPR had made it's evolution from Aurora to RedEngine long before 2011. While CIG is only on it's first iteration of the Star Engine, CDPR is on it's fourth iteration of its engine. To deliver game, you need finished tools. DCPR had finished tools, CIG stil develop them.
Funnily enough, CI¬G effectively had all of those as well, especially once Erin got onboard.
…a mature engine and experienced developers on this engine — the engine developers themselves, in fact, as well as multiple other third party contractors well-versed in their own tools and workflows. They also had legal and marketing staff (the former once again taken from the engine manufacturer), on top of the usual production posse that at the time had been running together for over two decades.
How much of that they had in 2010— when Chris said they got the project started — is perhaps a different matter.
Not to mention that, what CDPR had in 2011 is of pretty low relevance to what they had when development of CP2077 properly started.
Illfonic were experienced developers with CryEngine too, that's why CIG trumpeted hiring them for the FPS portion of the games. Unfortunately they were poorly managed by CIG, resulting in most of the work being scrapped or redone, the details of which only became public thanks to a Kotaku UK investigation.
In 2013 CIG contracted Illfonic, a third-party studio based in Denver, to build the Star Marine module and the first-person systems needed for Star Citizen.
So, in 2013, Roberts had two studios, multiple contractors, and three third-party studios working on an already ambitious game that was only growing more complex
Illfonic worked on Star Marine for nearly two years, but production issues like the one above have meant that nothing it worked on has been released, and much of what it did create has been rewritten by CIG.
The worst example of wasted effort was discovered towards the end of Illfonic’s time on Star Marine: CIG found that the entire map was built to the wrong scale.
Unfortunately, the assets that Illfonic had created for the Gold Horizon level did not fit into the levels that CIG had built. CIG asked lllfonic’s artists to remake the lot.
“I'm always very perplexed by this,” Roberts told me when I asked how this happened. “We got everyone together and had a whole art summit in Austin in 2013. I thought we were all on the same page but I guess at some point we weren't.”
It all seems to come down to a lack of producers on an already-stretched team. There was no one person in a position to spot these problems. Months of work had to be redone to fix the scale problem.
Meanwhile at Illfonic, the work to get the Star Marine it had created to work with the ever-changing Star Citizen was becoming a real burden for the studio. Star Marine was delayed, and delayed again. One source told me that eventually Chris Roberts asked Illfonic if it could reconcile the problems in the FPS module, and the company instead ended its partnership with CIG. “Illfonic sent the email,” a source tells me. “It was a mutual thing but Illfonic sent the email.”
We still don’t know for the earliest years. We do know that their use of contractors was certainly substantial from 2013 on.
CIG has muddied the water somewhat while pushing the 'small team, starting from scratch' argument, by leaving out the contractor contributions:
Staff Only Numbers for Dev 2012 - Aug 2015:
But throw in the contractor numbers, and it looks a different story
Staff + Contractor Numbers for 2013 - 2014:
Aug 2013: 90 (50 staff, 40~ contractors) [and rising]
Oct 2013: 110 (IE at Citcon. Approx 130-140 by this vid in Dec)
June 2014: 268 (approx half staff, half contract)
CDPRed almost went bankrupt several times before and after the Witcher 1 release in 2007. They were by no means a "well-established" company. The only reason they made their own engine was to get Witcher 2 to consoles, something they promised to Atari so they wouldn't get sued into the ground for their other bad business deals. Financially, they were barely holding on until the massive sales of the Witcher 2 put them on the AAA map.
Even discounting Witcher 2 and all the Witcher 3 DLC, CDPR will have put out two more games than CIG, across multiple console generations, since the start of the Kickstarter campaign for Star Citizen.
And has been mentioned before, CIG had dozens of outside contractors with years and years and years of experience and an off-the-shelf engine that was touted as "amazing" and "perfect" for Star Citizen (by Chris Roberts and countless other CIG devs). It was only after the CryTek/CIG partnership started to dissolve in early 2015 that we heard the "CryEngine is awful, we are redoing everything in it and building our own tools" type stuff come out. Of course, that was followed up with "Uh, wait, no, Lumberyard is amazing and perfect for Star Citizen!"
I know you're a recent backer but some of us have been following this project for almost a decade. It's dead and will never "release" with anywhere close to the features promised or pre-sold. It will stay in this pre-alpha word for years to come, if not forever. I doubt we'll see a full SQ42 release before 2024, if ever.
How do you reckon that? By his own statement hes a backer since 2013. I wouldnt call that "recent" as its 2020 today or am I wrong?