The Empire's State
- Thread starter CMDR Serra
- Start date
The debt is paid via service as far as I'm aware, not through currency, rather, it's a social debt.To pay off the debt? Or are they not supposed to do that?
Sometimes it might be financial debt, but in Imperial society, it's more often a debt of social status.
But then we come back to my previous post. We haven't heard of any institution that regulates how those services are valued and it could be decided by the patron on a whim.
My understating is that it's exactly that... decided purely by a patron on a whim. But as i explained, I'm pretty sure poor treatment of one's "Imperial Slaves" is frowned upon in Imperial society... meanwhile extreme lenience devalues the standing and status of the owner.
Sounds reasonable. The problem with such a system that relies on "social pressure" is that the same rules don't apply for everybody. Treating your slaves poorly might have negative consequences for patron X, but I doubt many would dare to criticize e.g. Patreus for it.
Of course. Welcome to the Patronage system.
The problem I have with the system is that given the lore vacuum, various player insert their own RP and headcanon to make the IS system out to be no better than simple slavery and so "Imps = slavers".
If FDev could actually clarify exactly how it works, then we'd be able to discuss this properly.
i.e:
I'm a good Imperial, but fall behind on my sidewinder payment. No worries - a month or two as an Imperial Slave will pay off my debt to the bank and erase any social stigma I have from not being able to pay the bank. Sign me up.
(something happens in here)
I am now free to go back to my life with debt paid, no social repercussions and potentially a useful new skill in my repertoire.
It's the bit in the middle I want to know about. I mean, it must be somewhat exploitative given AD (and others) are against it, but how exactly does it work?
Does my "master" pay off my actual debt?
Does my "master" pay me and I pay off the debt?
Does my "master" pay a 3rd party who's taken on my debt?
Does the ISA manage the whole process or is it more of an ombudsman?
etc, etc, etc...
If FDev could actually clarify exactly how it works, then we'd be able to discuss this properly.
i.e:
I'm a good Imperial, but fall behind on my sidewinder payment. No worries - a month or two as an Imperial Slave will pay off my debt to the bank and erase any social stigma I have from not being able to pay the bank. Sign me up.
(something happens in here)
I am now free to go back to my life with debt paid, no social repercussions and potentially a useful new skill in my repertoire.
It's the bit in the middle I want to know about. I mean, it must be somewhat exploitative given AD (and others) are against it, but how exactly does it work?
Does my "master" pay off my actual debt?
Does my "master" pay me and I pay off the debt?
Does my "master" pay a 3rd party who's taken on my debt?
Does the ISA manage the whole process or is it more of an ombudsman?
etc, etc, etc...
As far as I understood it (I might be wrong here) a slave only gets an allowance. It is expected by his/her owner though to provide the slave with food, shelter and clothing on at least the same level as a regular Imperial citizen. Also: When reaching the end of his/her slavery it is expected by the last owner to provide the former slave with everything they need to start anew as a free Imperial citizen.
And before you start with "Only expected? Who's going to enforce that?" please remember that personal honor is one of the pillars of Imperial society (I myself tend to use the term 'dignitas' during roleplay to reinforce its importance, something that even the devs used in the past, alongside bushido, to describe the concept of honor inside the Empire. Unfortunatly I cannot link to said article anymore as it's no longer online. You can find the link to it on the wiki).
Also: There is an agency that regulates Imperial slavery: The Imperial Slave Association (ISA).
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Yeah, when exactly is that? When the "owner" says so?
We're in fairy tale land again, when you say it works because every Imp is honorable. That just not how humans work.
No, when the ISA says so. Oh, and it is not me who says that every Imperial is honorable... the FDevs do. Source: Newsletter #22
We're in fairy tale land again because in the absence of any actual information, people just make **** up.
Imperials talking about honour again? I'd better start counting my spoons again.
Oh, you mean like...
...sorry, couldn't resist.
Anyway, here's how it goes in my head-canon:
1) A free Imperial finds him-/herself with a debt s/he can no longer stem on his/her own. To save his/her dignitas s/he reports to the ISA for a term of Imperial slavery.
2) The ISA interviews the slave-to-be on what services s/he is willing to provide (and yes, I think more "personal services" are an option to choose from. The Empire is mostly based on Ancient Rome after all, and the Romans had little to no issues with topic #1. Just take a look at the art found in Pompeii, including the Lupanar. I will not add links here because NSFW, but Wikipedia's your friend
). Depending on this and the height of the dept the length of servitude is calculated and the slave-to-be signs a contract with the ISA.3) The ISA sends the slave-to-be to one of its training centers, where s/he gets additional education and healthcare needed to make him/her fit for the chosen role(s).
4) The slave is then sold, with his/her price covering his/her debts.
5) Once the contract ends the Imperial slave will be an Imperial citizen again.
Imperial Slaves are really Indentured Servants - I think FDEV just wanted to highlight the differences with the Feds even more by using the word "Slaves".
At least its out there, as opposed to all the covert slavery in the Federation by salary/social status etc!
At least its out there, as opposed to all the covert slavery in the Federation by salary/social status etc!
Makes total sense and if they made that official I'd be happy.Oh, you mean like...
...sorry, couldn't resist.
Anyway, here's how it goes in my head-canon:
1) A free Imperial finds him-/herself with a debt s/he can no longer stem on his/her own. To save his/her dignitas s/he reports to the ISA for a term of Imperial slavery.
2) The ISA interviews the slave-to-be on what services s/he is willing to provide (and yes, I think more "personal services" are an option to choose from. The Empire is mostly based on Ancient Rome after all, and the Romans had little to no issues with topic #1. Just take a look at the art found in Pompeii, including the Lupanar. I will not add links here because NSFW, but Wikipedia's your friend
3) The ISA sends the slave-to-be to one of its training centers, where s/he gets additional education and healthcare needed to make him/her fit for the chosen role(s).
4) The slave is then sold, with his/her price covering his/her debts.
5) Once the contract ends the Imperial slave will be an Imperial citizen again.
Basically to cover the debt, you work out what the labour is worth per day and then the time commitment to cover the debt is.
Until this is official, though, you'll always get the "yeah, but slave" crowd chiming in.
As far as I can tell, the official line is vague.
The very concept of a human feudal sci-fi Empire is knda ridiculous.
Read again.
"an honourable Imperial citizen would sell themselves into slavery"
That at most say that an Imp. citizen should act honorable, but clearly not everyone is.
I read the OP then skipped to this page where it seems to be about slavery. But to the OP questions...
All 3 SP are flawed, imperfect so none are the goodies but maybe one is more of a baddie than the others with 2020 glasses on. Back in 84 and beyond where the lore was written and the foundations set for the Empire it wasnt such an issue. Its an unfortunate case of RL 'woke' catching up with something from last century.
All of your OP points are valid, the Imps written as bad as they are and Aisling even written as a vacuous non-entity repeatedly....to the point I actually felt sorry for her at Hadrian's bedside being utterly useless and just wanting to help and just getting in the way.....but then her statement in the next GalNet put that sympathy back in the box as she became once again an over-privileged head princess with no idea of real life for the slaves or the people under her. Throwing their weight around instead with Warships etc, its designed to get people to take a side.
So a Revolution? Wouldn't be the same at all would it? It would be a democracy of some description, a dictatorship of some description or maybe a theocracy. It would need players to buy into whatever lore is being created, and probably most of them would have to current Imps, not sure how many Feds or Allied would jump to a new SP created out of the Empire, or anywhere for that matter, thered have to be a good lore reason.
So you may be stuck with it. You may get away with abolishing slavery but your whole system depends on it, so could you isolate and remove it and still keep the arrogance? Maybe when the old queen dies and the new ruler takes over they can implement some changes....and now is a good time for that to happen.
But if the Empire becomes too 'good' then its the obvious single choice and if it remains as 'bad' as the other 2 youre still in the same boat.
All 3 SP are flawed, imperfect so none are the goodies but maybe one is more of a baddie than the others with 2020 glasses on. Back in 84 and beyond where the lore was written and the foundations set for the Empire it wasnt such an issue. Its an unfortunate case of RL 'woke' catching up with something from last century.
All of your OP points are valid, the Imps written as bad as they are and Aisling even written as a vacuous non-entity repeatedly....to the point I actually felt sorry for her at Hadrian's bedside being utterly useless and just wanting to help and just getting in the way.....but then her statement in the next GalNet put that sympathy back in the box as she became once again an over-privileged head princess with no idea of real life for the slaves or the people under her. Throwing their weight around instead with Warships etc, its designed to get people to take a side.
So a Revolution? Wouldn't be the same at all would it? It would be a democracy of some description, a dictatorship of some description or maybe a theocracy. It would need players to buy into whatever lore is being created, and probably most of them would have to current Imps, not sure how many Feds or Allied would jump to a new SP created out of the Empire, or anywhere for that matter, thered have to be a good lore reason.
So you may be stuck with it. You may get away with abolishing slavery but your whole system depends on it, so could you isolate and remove it and still keep the arrogance? Maybe when the old queen dies and the new ruler takes over they can implement some changes....and now is a good time for that to happen.
But if the Empire becomes too 'good' then its the obvious single choice and if it remains as 'bad' as the other 2 youre still in the same boat.
And people say stealing everything and eating people are wrong.