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The Empire's State
- Thread starter CMDR Serra
- Start date
The way Imperial Slavery is described, it would probably have been better to name it Imperial Peonage or possibly Imperial Serfdom. The Imperial cultural attitude implies the Imperial Slave screwed up - either in failing to reach a level of competence that was self-supporting or in engaging in financially irresponsible behavior (and ignores the possibility of catastrophically bad luck or corruption). Given the Empire's focus on Patronage and honor, there ought to be more in the lore about the benefits (both financial and status bearing) of a Patron successfully guiding an Imperial Slave through his term of service and into a productive post-contract life. Further, the concept behind the practice offers and interesting alternative to a traditional welfare-state. Too much of the actual practice of Imperial Slavery is left vague - and lots of scare quotes.
Zemina Torval 'converting' slaves to Imperial Slaves might not be the morally ideal scenario, but converting term-indefinite slaves to future productive and independent free Imperial citizens is certainly preferable to perpetual slavery (and much more economically viable than wholesale manumission). It would be interesting to have some GalNet articles and CG fluff explore what actually happens to those slaves who undergo 'involuntary conversion' to Imperial Slaves.
If enough slaves Imperial Slaves fulfill their contracts and enter Imperial Society as freemen, Imperial Slavery becomes a humanitarian solution to Federalist and Independent tacit acceptance of illegal slave trading throughout the bubble.
Well, tbh under normal circumstances I'd be an empire girl, but my Feds support had personal gain reasons. Fed rank isn't easy to come by, Feds where in the defensive with a distinct advantage and if I wanna max out my empire rank i'll do the ol 1-2 route down south.
Also the Empire desperately needs a purpose-built large fighting ship. The Corvette will eat cutters all day. Also I don't dig the apple look.
Also the Empire desperately needs a purpose-built large fighting ship. The Corvette will eat cutters all day. Also I don't dig the apple look.
Actually, the Corvette is a horrible combat ship outside of the already race-roll easy PVE because they’re too slow. The trick to combat in a Cutter (other than actually building it right) is learning to turn off Flight assist and direct the ship with relative mouse. With some practice it’s a completely different experience.
Cutters are also one of the ‘go-to’ ships for thargoid hunting, because you can control the engagement with the speed.
Whilst the Empire has certainly not looked very humane or reasonable in the recent CGs, its not like there are not parrallels in the real world for a percieved over the top reaction when a (even a democratic) state is under threat. So the behaviour is understandable.
I just do not see the Fed as any better.I n ED history, even with the more liberal party running the roost, they still managed to bomb civilians in their fight against drugs, sent the capital ships in when Lough wanted to leave, and assasinate their own, such as Smeaton, with no need for terrorists.
Its a video game where morale choices are there if you want to roleplay (once spaced some slaves to get negative influence to avoid a war, way back when failing mission was negative influence), stopped the war, did not like how I did it. So both super powers are dark grey to allow this.
Simon
I just do not see the Fed as any better.I n ED history, even with the more liberal party running the roost, they still managed to bomb civilians in their fight against drugs, sent the capital ships in when Lough wanted to leave, and assasinate their own, such as Smeaton, with no need for terrorists.
Its a video game where morale choices are there if you want to roleplay (once spaced some slaves to get negative influence to avoid a war, way back when failing mission was negative influence), stopped the war, did not like how I did it. So both super powers are dark grey to allow this.
Simon
That's nonsense. Slavery is not "accepted" in the Federation or Alliance. It exists in the Empire just as well.
"Working off your debt" is accepting slavery, just with nicer words. When Patreus invades a system, takes the inhabitants hostage and tells them they are not Imperial slaves, there's nothing voluntary about it. "You know owe me 100 billion credits each, I'll pay you 2cr/h." How civilized.
Through social inequality not everyone paid enough for a confortable live, or even the possibility of saving up for effectively retiring after a lifetime of working. Even in the post-scarcity economy of Elite, the federation codex very clearly states poverty and misery are still very present concepts, along with corporate domination.
You also don't see the Federation solving the poverty problem either. Patreus' behavior is a strawman: his behavior doesn't conform to Imperial standards of honor. We don't know if his asset realization campaigns are Federalist propaganda, aberrant behavior from a powerful senator, an accurate depiction of Imperial Slavery as an institution, or just bad writing from Fdev lore guru's. My point was that Imperial Slavery as form of enlightened peonage with an expectation of independence at the end of the contract is consistent with the Paternalistic nature of the Empire if the post-servitude life of an Imperial Slave reflects on his former "master." In that environment I think you could make a strong case that Imperial Slavery combined with the cliens relationship would create better outcomes for the Imperial Slave citizen than the bureaucratically driven welfare solutions of the Federation and Alliance and their corporate wage-slaves.
Since you mentioned the quality of the writing, let's assume Elite is aimed at adults.
With that in mind, I remain convinced that something like Imperial Slavery is a fairy tale. It's certainly sugar coated, but beneath it's a system of oppression and exploitation. Take a look at humanity and tell me it wouldn't get abused to no end.
With that in mind, I remain convinced that something like Imperial Slavery is a fairy tale. It's certainly sugar coated, but beneath it's a system of oppression and exploitation. Take a look at humanity and tell me it wouldn't get abused to no end.
While such cases surely exist they are rather rare due to the existence of the Imperial Slave Association (ISA), which gets audited on a regular basis.
I don't really disagree. Elite seems to reflect a world where every structured authority is a very dark shade of grey. But if we're going to take the conceit that the Federalists effectively champion Free Markets and the Alliance effectively champions Democracy, I don't think its too far of a stretch to think Imperial Slavery is an honest attempt at eliminating poverty. From an Imperial perspective, Imperial Slavery looks a lot more like an alternative to welfare than the slavery practiced in Federation and Alliance space. I imagine the Federation has a similar problem with accusations of wage-slavery.
Getting back to the thread title, in the interest of presenting each faction in its best light it would be better to refer to Imperial Slavery as Imperial Peonage/Vassalage etc.
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Shh, we were trying to keep that a secret and let everyone believe cutters weren't any good.
Where does the Alliance get off being the "champions of democracy"? The Alliance is exactly what it says that it is, an "Alliance" of free star systems that banded together and collectively said enough to both the Federation and the Empire. Within its borders, the Alliance has dictatorships, patronages, and even corporate governments where the fate of billions is decided in an executive board room. Not that this is a bad thing, because I do like the Alliance for all of their imperfections (and their multi-cannons, and their rail guns, and their plasma accelerators). Let's just keep the facts straight.
Democracy was a poor choice of words. In my defense, from the wiki: "The Alliance was established in 3230 in Alioth, and portrays itself as a beacon of human rights and democracy in an increasingly autocratic universe." Notionally, the Alliance is more democratic in the way it treats its member states.
Yeah, Indentured Servitude is a closer-fitting term, which is a form of slavery by another name but nonetheless, entirely different to wholesale slavery.
The fundamental difference is that in Imperial Slavery, which parallels a Patronage government, there are mutual obligations, and a Patron stands to lose far more than they may benefit from the mistreatment of "Imperial Slaves".
But the Federation? That's not mistreatment of it's citizens, it's just doing business. I mean, let's face it, Imperial Slavery is really just functional trickle-down economics, as opposed to proceeds simply ending up in a CEO's pocket. A Patron succeeds, Imperial Slaves under their watch benefit.
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Not even computer games can escape from 2020's masslock... 
But we don't really know that, do we? I don't think we have any word on the exact "wages" of Imperial slaves. You seem to think it's a percentage based on the owner/patron's wealth. It might just as well be 0.00001cr p.a. or whatever they feel like.
I don't even think there is wages. But who needs wages when you're housed, clothed, well fed and treated well and provided your needs, in exchange for service.