The Empire's State

AlSki

AlSki
(BTW. I had to read a few old GalNet posts to find what I was looking for below and I really miss the colour they used to add!)

For me the biggest battle is not Fed vs Imp, or even Alliance. For me its about writing stories that engage the players and get them fighting for EITHER side, however I think there is a Empire/Fed bias between in the different types of players in ED.

When you first start playing it's incredibly easy to think the Empire must be Evil, thanks George (FD didn't help matters by preceding The Force Awakens with the E:D trailer at the cinema) and the Federation is the home of peaceful(!) exploration, thanks Gene. It takes a little bit of time to realise this universe is a bit more nuanced. I started playing in this universe back with FFE, and even then I chose to start originally from Sol and my first interactions were with "the enemy" in the "Evil" Empire, only to realise that they had much better stories and cooler ships.

When I started playing ED, I had just missed there was an OnionHead crisis in Lugh (https://news.galnet.fr/category/lugh-war/) , where the Federation were acting like the evil dictator (Lugh Prepares for War | Galnet News), and it was much easier to see the Federation in a different context.

Corruption is not unusual – individuals defend it shamelessly when caught as ‘getting one over the system’. Social class is only determined between ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’. There is a lot of poverty about, as well as conspicuous wealth.
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ED newsletter #23

So I joined all of the CGs, I burned my way up the combat ranks fighting for the Empire as we took down Emperor's Dawn, and discovered that the empire players were hopelessly outnumbered when in the battles with the federation. I remember one CG Imperial players averaged something like 10x the number of bonds each than Federation players, but we still lost. Being outnumbered meant I stopped being one of the crowd at a CG and started instead looking for ways that a single player might be able to shift the balance of power a little.I started taking the fight to the federation, trying to strike at systems and push them from Federation and/or to Imperial. Now I was playing the BGS.

After a while I realised I couldn't do it alone, so I joined an Imperial aligned squadron, where I discovered that "we" weren't losing as badly as I thought; From The state of the human populated galaxy - Nov 1, 3306.

b3j3HyJ.jpg


Ignore for a moment that the Empire has just crossed above the Federation in terms of number of systems, I'm sure there are other metrics where its the other way around, I think it's more interesting that the rate of loss of systems to the independents has always been higher for federation than Empire. Take a look at some of the other charts on that link and you can see that the Federation space is really quite orange (as below). It's almost as if the belief in the Federation is more dilute but the Empire is more intense.

Given my experience (and therefore my bias that makes me think other people are like me), this leads me to think that maybe, newer or more casual players, those more attracted to the awards of a CG, are with the Federation, and those who stick around are playing the BGS for the Empire?

However while we still have wars between Fed and Imp, the battle is still one of driving people to feel invested. I will never "believe" that the Federation (or Empire) are truly evil, until they take a more overt presence. Lets get;
  • Chased across systems, and sucked up into the belly of a Majestic Class Interdictor looking for Droids carrying Battle Plans.
  • Drop out of supercruise and find some Farragut Battle Cruiser's blockading the star port (I know the Federation did this with Palin's base once, but it was trivial to get around), maybe a pair of SLFs on your tail "escorting"/scanning you as come in. Better hope those credentials you got from the dodgy contact on the mission board are still good...
  • Have my shields taken off-line and drives disabled for exceeding 101m/s while docking by the Alliance (sorry Alliance I was running out of ideas)
As an aside, I was once interdicted by a player group. They dropped in en masse, multiple Anacondas, SLFs, surrounding my Phantom, and gave me their "recruitment or die" speech. We chatted for about 5 mins while I scanned all of their ships, and then I ran, well I tried to. It was the 2nd Grom Bomb that did it. In terms of recruiting speeches, now that was "evil", but it was memorable, and maybe that's not so bad.


k6q5WPG.png


Oh, and if are going for "hair"-brained conspiracy theories, my money is on the NMLA being a front for the "Aisling/Rochester" alliance. I am awaiting the GalNet post about hair-dye sales increasing !!! :cool:
 
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Ralph Vargr

Ralph Vargr
Elliot Coleman said:
Both the Federation and Empire are pretty overt in their lust to be the big dog in the pack.

In my eyes, ole Mahon and the Alliance seem pretty suspect. Never making waves, being obnoxiously diplomatic, etc. Manipulators, perhaps? Is the Alliance greasing the wheels of conflict between their rivals so they can emerge as a true superpower?

Beware the quiet ones.
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Puppeteers/Hivers. :)
 

insanephoton

insanephoton
Peter_Quill said:
For a lot of people the reason to hate the Empire is the Imperial Slavery, even though, officially, its described as working off your debt. I wonder if the Empire was more liked if they didnt use the word Slavery and used "Debt Relief Worker" or something along those lines instead
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Unfortunately various stories on Galnet (and some CGs) in the past few years have cast serious doubt on the 'Imperial slavery = voluntary indentured servitude' narrative that the Imperials claim. We have several instances of CGs for Zemina Torval and even the Emperor herself requesting commanders to bring in 'normal' slaves to be 'converted' into Imperial slaves. Doesn't sound like the slaves were given much choice in the matter. Whilst their prospects may be improved by such actions, it does suggest that the Empire tacitly approves regular slavery as long as it happens outside their territory.

The other problem with the narrative is the actions of Denny P before he was put in charge of the Imperial Navy. At least a couple of times he has encouraged a system to take out a loan for some new shiny cap ships, then called in the loan at short notice. When they didn't pay (because they couldn't afford to) he sent in his personal fleet to extract payment in kind i.e. a proportion of the population becoming Imperial slaves.
 

Vasco Sapien

Vasco Sapien
Vincent Serra said:
DISCLAIMER: I preface this by saying I'm no lore expert. So, obvs, personal opinion incoming. Pinch of salt may be required - and yes, I am clad head-to-foot in asbestos... 🔥🔥🚒🧯

[Admin note]: I wasn't sure if this was CG/Lore related but ended up placing it in DD. Please move if inappropriately placed.

So the CG results so far are pretty convincing. 56% vs 14% in favour of the Feds so far. What this suggests - to me at least - is that some or more of the following are true:

1. Players read the descriptions and make a choice for the Feds based on the scenario.
2. Players read the descriptions and make a choice for the Feds based on the rewards.
3. Players make a choice based on other mission parameters - distance to station from CZ, facilities available at base...
4. There's a more general pro-Federal (and/or anti-Imperial) bias among CMDRs.

However, when you take other CGs into account where despite the differing scenarios, goals, rewards etc we've had the same result, I'm drawn to 4. This, however brings in option 5:

5. The Imperials are often being portrayed in-setting as being in the wrong - so in-game bias in unsurprising.

Recently, the Imperials are always invading systems, trying to hijack engineers and generally behaving in the way that an evil empire would when there are so many more sensible options (question Liz R. without taking her into custody, being more circumspect in investigating NMLA). There's no subtlety, diplomacy or flair - just a rather brutish application of blunt force which has proven time and again to end in abject failure. In other words - to me - they are not acting rationally. Now this may in the end all pay off plot-wise, but I'm not seeing it so far... After all, the definition of insanity is repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting different results.

To my mind, the Empire is the one original faction in Elite. The one faction built not on "freedom" or "democracy" but one with a much subtler, more esoteric culture. One which outsiders may consider flawed, but which works for them nonetheless. Granted, it's not for everyone, but which culture is? There's the forgotten underclass of the Federation who are easily exploited by those with money or the Alliance systems that are tolerant of autocracy and dictatorship due to their policy of self-determinism? Both of these facets seem not to sway players as much as "slavery".

The fact that the Empire now seems to be a force for evil with no redeeming qualities does a disservice to the whole setting. It turns them into the Empire of the SW universe where they are unequivocally evil and should be destroyed out of hand for the benefit of the entire galaxy.

Now FDev can continue to portray the Empire as the unequivocal villain of the piece - it's their setting after all - but I'm becoming less and less engaged with the faction as they become more and more two-dimensional.

TLDR - Of late, the Empire comes off as the bad guy. I believe Elite is the poorer for it.

I'd (genuinely) be interested to know what people think:
  • Do you have another explanation of why the CGs always skew heavily to the Feds? If so please elaborate.
  • Are you happy with the current portrayal of the Empire?
  • Would you like to see the Empire defeated and subsumed with another power/a new power created in their place/something else?
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Ive always been a fan of the Empire in Elite and Imperial states within Science Fiction and Fantasy in general, i think its a cornerstone in some Fiction.
If i am honest, i think Frontier right now are trying to redesign and re-present the Empire in Elite Dangerous and im betting its to do with * cough * real world politics.
Which for me at least is a massive shame.

But wait and see.
 

Daniel Cloudsifter

Daniel Cloudsifter
Vincent Serra said:
TLDR - Of late, the Empire comes off as the bad guy. I believe Elite is the poorer for it.

I'd (genuinely) be interested to know what people think:
  • Do you have another explanation of why the CGs always skew heavily to the Feds? If so please elaborate.
  • Are you happy with the current portrayal of the Empire?
  • Would you like to see the Empire defeated and subsumed with another power/a new power created in their place/something else?
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Based on what I've read of the lore, both in-game and from external sources (websites, official EDRPG) , I would sum the super powers up as:
  1. Federation - citizens have legal freedom, anyone can rise through the ranks of power, but corporate influence corrupts the government and restricts the citizenry (varying degrees of economic freedom.
  2. Empire - citizens can be indentured servants (imperial slaves), very little ability to rise through the ranks (done through families and multiple generations). However, political figures are directly motivated (via the whole patronage systems) to be very responsive to, and often take personal care (economic, medical, etc.) of, their citizens.
  3. Alliance - the ideal democratic government. Plenty of freedom, democratic participation. Downside is it is small, divided, and slow to react.

So I don't view any superpower as "the bad guy." They're far too nuanced for such simplistic labels. That said, I know a lot of the community takes that immediate stance towards the Empire; they see "slave" and nothing else matters.

As for this CG, the Empire as whole isn't acting as the bad guy, but they are being extremely aggressive. Some that is understandable, due to their suffering terrorist attacks on their stations and the assassination attempts (some successful) on royal family members. The response is even more aggressive as it is being lead by Patreus. His motives are always suspect (see the book Premonition). So are Zachary Hudson's - who is currently crippled by his possible involvement in the attempt on President Halsey's life.
 

Amanojaku

Amanojaku
Meh. You could also say the Feds are the bad guys for harboring terrorists. Imperial intelligence has pinned the bombings on the NMLA, who had ties to Marlinism. The Marlinists fled to the Feds who obstructed justice and used "protecting innocent refugees" as an excuse to welcome a war. It's not like they weren't counting on the Imps to invade, and it's not like the Feds aren't capable of defending their territory. The Empire doesn't have a superior military that can roflstomp the Feds like a modern day superpower invading a third world country. Both sides were itching for a war anyway.
 

don carnage1

don carnage1
This isn’t rocket science. Gamers generally do not like playing as bad guys, whether it’s Elite or any other game.

There are exceptions of course. None of the superpowers are wholly “good,” except the Empire is consistently in a worse light than the others... both in CGs and background lore.

This also extends to independent factions. The “good guy” generally wins, even when there is a reward bias toward the baddies.

We saw this in the CG where players were given a choice between advanced AX multicannons or missiles as rewards. The missiles were proven to be more useful, except their faction was clearly the evil one. So they lost.

That’s all this is.
 

Tarkus Venius

Tarkus Venius
Peter_Quill said:
My main point was them outright using the word slave. If a new players starts reading up on the super powers and one says "Yep we use slaves" most will stop considering the empire and maybe decide between the Alliance and the Feds
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They aren't reading into the Empire very far.

There are no slaves in Aisling space. Not a single one. Aisling and her devoted pilots run about half of the Empire currently.
 

Borko

Borko
Or maybe it's because for forty years no one has been able to turn around without seeing Star Wars plastered onto something. SW has a huge cultural footprint and presents the Empire as the baddies. That's gonna leak over into another game about space fighters.
 

Tarkus Venius

Tarkus Venius
Borko said:
Or maybe it's because for forty years no one has been able to turn around without seeing Star Wars plastered onto something. SW has a huge cultural footprint and presents the Empire as the baddies. That's gonna leak over into another game about space fighters.
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Only if the video game writer isn't very smart or creative.
 

AlSki

AlSki
Tarkus Venius said:
They aren't reading into the Empire very far.

There are no slaves in Aisling space. Not a single one. Aisling and her devoted pilots run about half of the Empire currently.
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I don't mean to do those pilot's any dis-service in their sterling efforts, but the best you could say is there is no slave trade in Aisling space, and I would happily agree. Unfortunately we only see the market numbers of trade. Until there is evidence (GalNet accepted) that you've been to all the households across that space and purchased out all the current contracts (even from the stubborn old matriarch's who've had slaves for the last 80yrs) they will still be some in the households somewhere.
We could also consider that just because a trade is no longer visible does not mean it not traded. Do you see any on the black markets? Are there ever any missions to bring some in privately bypassing the markets?
 

Helvellyn

Helvellyn
I'd very much like to see a lot more nuance in the political portrayals, even if that still means an Empire with an outlook most people wouldn't really find all that acceptable these days. But it really is painted too much as a boo-hiss villain. I don't mind some outright good and outright evil - everything's grey and just as bad really when you dig in to it is just as lazy, but look at reality - the Roman Empire was rather more unpleasant than this Empire but even that we don't see in quite the same two dimensional light, and I doubt its rulers acted quite so much either (with a few notable exceptions). Lets have political entities, not cliches please!
 

Tarkus Venius

Tarkus Venius
alski said:
I don't mean to do those pilot's any dis-service in their sterling efforts, but the best you could say is there is no slave trade in Aisling space, and I would happily agree. Unfortunately we only see the market numbers of trade. Until there is evidence (GalNet accepted) that you've been to all the households across that space and purchased out all the current contracts (even from the stubborn old matriarch's who've had slaves for the last 80yrs) they will still be some in the households somewhere.
We could also consider that just because a trade is no longer visible does not mean it not traded. Do you see any on the black markets? Are there ever any missions to bring some in privately bypassing the markets?
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It clearly says "Imperial Slaves Banned" Not "Imperial Slave Trade Banned". I am only going by what the game says.

That's for over 1080 star systems, most of which are imperial or formerly imperial under the administration of an "independent" faction whose squadron is 100 percent Imperial.

As to whether there is criminal activity, that is neither here nor there.
 

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