An odd selection of aquatic animals.

[Danny_zoo]

After watching the released video that leaked what Frontier obviously has been working on for quite sometime, one observation that comes to mind is what an odd choice of aquatic animals that was. Let me explain, so far and especially with the last two DLCs Frontier has been on course with animals that are widely found in zoos and for the most part widely popular. Now while we do not know what an aquatic DLC would look like and if it would be limited to four animals, what we do know is that there are three aquatic animals that leaked in this video, at the current DLC size of four animals a pack, it would only leave one spot left.

First we have the Grey Seal, a very tiny percentage of zoos exhibit this animal, you have a better chance to find it in an aquarium than in a zoo, and even there they are not guaranteed and are quite rare. Not sure what that inclusion was about, but something tells me that the legions of fans clamoring for marine mammals based on a zoo tycoon nostalgia instead of educated research on zoos have influenced this choice.

Second we have the King Penguin, that is the most perplexing choice for me, because even though this is not the Emperor Penguin, almost impossible to find in zoo, it is still not the most popular species. They are a difficult bunch to keep in zoos, and even Aquariums have a hard time creating facilities for them. African Penguins seem to be the popular zoo penguin species widely found across the world, and if one penguin species is all we get, that slot would have made sense to be given to them. So this one left me scratching my head.

Third is the Giant Otter. Now this one is not as bad as the others, and while I was an advocate for this species, I will have to be honest and say that the Asian Small Clawed Otter would have been the go to otter for any zoo game. The Giant Otter is the equivalent of the Giant Panda for aquatic animals, it is a milestone for any zoo to be able to get them. So this one is debatable.

So based on the current DLC trend of four animals, only one spot is left, who would it be?

Californian Sea Lion (I think that everyone that thinks of aquatic animals in zoos imagines a sea lion at some point, that would have been my number one pick)

Pelicans (That's right, Pelicans, they were in the concept art of Planet Zoo, and a widely popular aquatic bird, it should have been handle just like the Penguin, even though it is a bird it fits in this group, they could behave just like the flamingoes, but with a lot of aquatic navigation)

Capybara (When the SA DLC was released, this one was a winner if there was ever to be an Aquatic DLC, so now that one seems to be in the works, it is odd to imagine it without it.)

North American Beaver ( Ok, so not the most exotic animal in the world, it is classified as least concern, and not commonly found in zoos, even here in the U.S, however since this game is not always accurate in their selection, it would still be a viable option)

Green Anaconda (When I first learned about the possibility of an Aquatic DLC about a year ago, my first thought was how amazing it would be to see an Anaconda thru an underwater viewing area, when this iconic South American representative was not included in the SA DLC I was dead certain that it would come via an aquatic DLC. When else could we get a green Anaconda? Definitely not an exhibit animal.

West Indian Manatee (Now hell should freeze over, if we actually get a grey seal and not a manatee in this game, there is just no other way I can explain this one. West Indian Manatees have dedicated exhibits not only in the U.S but Europe (Germany has some really amazing ones, so does France) Asia, etc, this one has to happen.

African Penguin (I already explained this one before, but again, it is the most common species of Penguin found in zoos, somehow I feel it will be hard to hope for two penguin species in the same DLC, specially if there is only one spot left, bad move here)

Humboldt penguin (Just like the African Penguin it is a species widely distributed in zoos, should have taken precedent over King Penguins as well)

North American River Otter (Not the most exiting otter, another least concerned animal, and quite frankly I would still place the Giant otter over it any day in this game, but never the less it deserves mention)

Asian Small Clawed Otter ( Now this one is one of the most playful and popular animals in any zoo they inhabit, they are a delight to see thru glass, extremely playful and a lot more active than the Giant Otter. Many of our forum's veteran members including a one night drunk moderator have them in their signature blocks, they should have taken the otter spot. This is concerning, because Frontier's choice here can only be justified by the size difference between them and the Giant otters, so that places every other small mammal in danger of never making it into the game, I'm very worried for Meerkats)

There are a ton of other aquatic animals, but the ones mentioned above should be part of an aquatic DLC,

 

[Jeminyne]

After watching the released video that leaked what Frontier obviously has been working on for quite sometime, one observation that comes to mind is what an odd choice of aquatic animals that was. Let me explain, so far and especially with the last two DLCs Frontier has been on course with animals that are widely found in zoos and for the most part widely popular. Now while we do not know what an aquatic DLC would look like and if it would be limited to four animals, what we do know is that there are three aquatic animals that leaked in this video, at the current DLC size of four animals a pack, it would only leave one spot left.

First we have the Grey Seal, a very tiny percentage of zoos exhibit this animal, you have a better chance to find it in an aquarium than in a zoo, and even there they are not guaranteed and are quite rare. Not sure what that inclusion was about, but something tells me that the legions of fans clamoring for marine mammals based on a zoo tycoon nostalgia instead of educated research on zoos have influenced this choice.

Second we have the King Penguin, that is the most perplexing choice for me, because even though this is not the Emperor Penguin, almost impossible to find in zoo, it is still not the most popular species. They are a difficult bunch to keep in zoos, and even Aquariums have a hard time creating facilities for them. African Penguins seem to be the popular zoo penguin species widely found across the world, and if one penguin species is all we get, that slot would have made sense to be given to them. So this one left me scratching my head.

Third is the Giant Otter. Now this one is not as bad as the others, and while I was an advocate for this species, I will have to be honest and say that the Asian Small Clawed Otter would have been the go to otter for any zoo game. The Giant Otter is the equivalent of the Giant Panda for aquatic animals, it is a milestone for any zoo to be able to get them. So this one is debatable.

So based on the current DLC trend of four animals, only one spot is left, who would it be?

Californian Sea Lion (I think that everyone that thinks of aquatic animals in zoos imagines a sea lion at some point, that would have been my number one pick)

Pelicans (That's right, Pelicans, they were in the concept art of Planet Zoo, and a widely popular aquatic bird, it should have been handle just like the Penguin, even though it is a bird it fits in this group, they could behave just like the flamingoes, but with a lot of aquatic navigation)

Capybara (When the SA DLC was released, this one was a winner if there was ever to be an Aquatic DLC, so now that one seems to be in the works, it is odd to imagine it without it.)

North American Beaver ( Ok, so not the most exotic animal in the world, it is classified as least concern, and not commonly found in zoos, even here in the U.S, however since this game is not always accurate in their selection, it would still be a viable option)

Green Anaconda (When I first learned about the possibility of an Aquatic DLC about a year ago, my first thought was how amazing it would be to see an Anaconda thru an underwater viewing area, when this iconic South American representative was not included in the SA DLC I was dead certain that it would come via an aquatic DLC. When else could we get a green Anaconda? Definitely not an exhibit animal.

West Indian Manatee (Now hell should freeze over, if we actually get a grey seal and not a manatee in this game, there is just no other way I can explain this one. West Indian Manatees have dedicated exhibits not only in the U.S but Europe (Germany has some really amazing ones, so does France) Asia, etc, this one has to happen.

African Penguin (I already explained this one before, but again, it is the most common species of Penguin found in zoos, somehow I feel it will be hard to hope for two penguin species in the same DLC, specially if there is only one spot left, bad move here)

Humboldt penguin (Just like the African Penguin it is a species widely distributed in zoos, should have taken precedent over King Penguins as well)

North American River Otter (Not the most exiting otter, another least concerned animal, and quite frankly I would still place the Giant otter over it any day in this game, but never the less it deserves mention)

Asian Small Clawed Otter ( Now this one is one of the most playful and popular animals in any zoo they inhabit, they are a delight to see thru glass, extremely playful and a lot more active than the Giant Otter. Many of our forum's veteran members including a one night drunk moderator have them in their signature blocks, they should have taken the otter spot. This is concerning, because Frontier's choice here can only be justified by the size difference between them and the Giant otters, so that places every other small mammal in danger of never making it into the game, I'm very worried for Meerkats)

There are a ton of other aquatic animals, but the ones mentioned above should be part of an aquatic DLC,

Can you link me to that video?

 

[Danny_zoo]

Sure thing, here is the link, it is an interesting video, the leaks start at around the 18 minute mark. You will need to stop it and just focus on the screen behind the Devs, you will find the Sun Bear, King Penguin, Grey Seal and Giant Otter, they are in a variety of completion stages as not every single species has all the rigs completed.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NSndf71o7c

 

[NZFanatic]

There were no grey seals in Zoo Tycoon just FYI - there were California sea lions in the original game, and elephants seals and Pacific walrus in Marine Mania, and then in Zoo Tycoon 2 Marine Mania we had the California sea lion and walrus again. So it isn't nostalgia. I think it's just Frontier making weird decisions as they tend to do (Himalayan brown bear?).

Edit: Also there is no way we'll get an anaconda as anything except an exhibit animal (presumably with a larger exhibit size, but I doubt that). Snakes are not 'open air habitat' animals - in almost all zoos they require carefully controlled environments. That includes the green anaconda, despite its considerable size (honestly it usually includes the Nile monitor as well, and even the Komodo dragon is often displayed with at least a significant indoor section to its habitat).

The king penguin is really the only animal in that video I'm automatically happy with, but I'll take the seal. I'm not thrilled with the idea of the giant otter, because I agree that the Asian small-clawed is the much more obvious and well-known choice.

 

[VioletGrey]

Well if you put it that way, giant pandas are extremely rare to see in zoos, too.

I don't want the game limited to just what's popular and common in real zoos.

 

[Danny_zoo]

There were no grey seals in Zoo Tycoon just FYI - there were California sea lions in the original game, and elephants seals and Pacific walrus in Marine Mania, and then in Zoo Tycoon 2 Marine Mania we had the California sea lion and walrus again. So it isn't nostalgia. I think it's just Frontier making weird decisions as they tend to do (Himalayan brown bear?).

Edit: Also there is no way we'll get an anaconda as anything except an exhibit animal (presumably with a larger exhibit size, but I doubt that). Snakes are not 'open air habitat' animals - in almost all zoos they require carefully controlled environments. That includes the green anaconda, despite its considerable size (honestly it usually includes the Nile monitor as well, and even the Komodo dragon is often displayed with at least a significant indoor section to its habitat).

The king penguin is really the only animal in that video I'm automatically happy with, but I'll take the seal. I'm not thrilled with the idea of the giant otter, because I agree that the Asian small-clawed is the much more obvious and well-known choice.

Well you make a good point about the Anaconda, they definitely are not open air habitat animals, I guess I always assume and reason that other players would understand this and create suitable habitats, but with all the crazy stuff you often see in this game, you are probably right, and they should be confined to exhibits. The thing is that I do not have high hopes on Frontier adding bigger exhibits as an option, even though it would make absolute sense to do so. And of course the selfish reasoning, that Frontier would never put in the time to design an Anaconda habitat that does them justice, and I on the other hand would if they released them as habitat animals. But agree with you on this one.

About the grey seals, I really was not saying that they were part of that game, I honestly could care less, you know my feelings about that game, it ruined the virtual zoo experience for a lot of this players now, because they keep on asking for whales, dolphins, dinosaurs, etc, because they think this is how a zoo game should be handled. What I meant is that there was so much pressure by this players that Frontier went ahead and said let's give them a Seal and never mind all the other animals that should take precedent.

I can see why you would like the King Penguin, it is a beautiful animal, and pretty distinct and colorful. But a similar issue as the one with the Anaconda arises, their exhibits will have to be indoors, and in all honesty, you as a zookeeper know that they are pain in the rear to maintain, lots of money there. I can already see the zoos in YouTube with an open air King Penguin exhibit in the middle of a tropical zoo. But I will definitely use them, maybe it would inspire me to eventually built a European historical Zoo like Antwerp or even Berlin.

 

[NZFanatic]

Well if you put it that way, giant pandas are extremely rare to see in zoos, too.

I don't want the game limited to just what's popular and common in real zoos.

It's never been about what is popular or common, but what is more iconic. The giant panda is a rarity in zoos, but even so it is an iconic zoo animal - in terms of otters, the Asian small-clawed is easily the most common species displayed in zoos, but also the most commonly referred to when people imagine otters. The giant otter might be more unique and specialised, but it isn't really comparable to the giant panda in that the panda is such a glaringly obvious choice for a zoo game.

Given that we are limited in our choices, I think going for iconic over rare and even over popular is a better path than including random animals.

I mean, the cassowary was popular, and rare, but certainly not emblematic of Australian fauna. People were happy with it, sure, but there was a lot of discussion around why the emu was overlooked.

 

[Danny_zoo]

Well if you put it that way, giant pandas are extremely rare to see in zoos, too.

I don't want the game limited to just what's popular and common in real zoos.

I understand your point, I'm an advocate myself that at times we need to bend the rules, and remember that it is a game. However the thing with the Giant Pandas is that yes they are not common in zoos, and you have to pay a royalty to the Chinese to even bring them over, but they are at the end of the day the face of many zoos, and a household name in the industry. Neither of those three animals with the exception of the Giant Otter that is a highly desirable species by many zoos, can claim that.

But the point is not even about that, Giant Pandas would not have a suitable replacement species that is widely represented in zoos to take their place, the King Penguins and Giant Otters do. The Grey Seal is another story, every single aquatic animal I posted above deserves a slot over them, they are just in the wrong game.

 

[NZFanatic]

I can see why you would like the King Penguin, it is a beautiful animal, and pretty distinct and colorful. But a similar issue as the one with the Anaconda arises, their exhibits will have to be indoors, and in all honesty, you as a zookeeper know that they are pain in the rear to maintain, lots of money there. I can already see the zoos in YouTube with an open air King Penguin exhibit in the middle of a tropical zoo. But I will definitely use them, maybe it would inspire me to eventually built a European historical Zoo like Antwerp or even Berlin.

Edinburgh Zoo has an outdoor king penguin habitat, and the other place I've seen them in is the Kelly Tarlton's SeaLife Aquarium here in New Zealand where they are kept in an indoor habitat. So for me, it goes 50/50. I've never worked with king penguins, only little blue penguins, both in a zoo environment and in the wild as part of a Department of Conservation initiative (along with the yellow-eyed and Fiordland crested penguins, though the latter was less "involved" and more conceptual).

I give the king penguins a pass because while you are right that they wouldn't do well in a tropical zoo environment, they do fine in a temperate/taiga zoo environment (even their natural range isn't on the icecaps, but on the sub-Antarctic islands such as the South Sandwich Islands).

Regarding the seal, I think we have the same belief more or less - it was just Frontier making a strange choice as they seem to enjoy doing (as I said, the Himalayan brown bear was an outright bonkers decision in terms of 'zoo realism').

 

[Danny_zoo]

It's never been about what is popular or common, but what is more iconic. The giant panda is a rarity in zoos, but even so it is an iconic zoo animal - in terms of otters, the Asian small-clawed is easily the most common species displayed in zoos, but also the most commonly referred to when people imagine otters. The giant otter might be more unique and specialised, but it isn't really comparable to the giant panda in that the panda is such a glaringly obvious choice for a zoo game.

Given that we are limited in our choices, I think going for iconic over rare and even over popular is a better path than including random animals.

I mean, the cassowary was popular, and rare, but certainly not emblematic of Australian fauna. People were happy with it, sure, but there was a lot of discussion around why the emu was overlooked.

Excellent points. This statement has made me rethink my position in regards to the King Penguin, the African Penguin is in my opinion more popular overall, but when you think iconic, the King Penguin is definitely it. It immediately transports you to historical zoos, temperate zoos, etc. Would love to replicate Antwerp Zoo that would be a fun project, and could use this animal there.

 

[FoxyDee]

I do think alot of these choices have to do something about the size of the animal. Basically king penguins are the second biggest species and giant otter is well..giant compared to other otters. I guess they wanted to have something quite visible. I am all for small aniamals! But just saying it might have to do something with it.

I would gladly change the seal for a sea lion, this one just seems a weird choice. But of course, that doesnt mean we wont be getting a sea lion also. Or any smaller penguin or a different species of otter. Would be awesome if we had for example 2 species of penguin - 1 big one the king penguin and one smaller, like Humbolt or something. Same with the otter - a giant otter and then perhaps the smaller asian clawed one.

I think it was a shame they did not use the beautiful kangaroo rig for additional smaller species of kangaroo, for example a wallaby. They are reasonably different but still could use the rig.

 

[Jeminyne]

I agree with @FoxyDee, I doubt we would get one random seal and then nothing similar. I bet we will get at least a sea lion, a walrus, then maybe an elephant seal. Just the fact we have proof they are working on pinnipeds changes everything! For all we knew, we weren't getting anything of the sort. But now we know we are. I also agree with getting one more penguin species, that's smaller and more common. Everyone would be satisfied. It's almost guaranteed they'll reuse the penguin rig at least once.

@Danny_zoo Keep in mind the only reason Planet Zoo exists in the first place is Zoo Tycoon. We would truly only have a Planet Coaster, and nothing else, if Roller Coaster Tycoon and Zoo Tycoon were not considered two sides of the same iconic coin. Also, Planet Zoo was almost certainly modelled after what Zoo Tycoon fans wanted in a sequel or spiritual successor. The resemblance between PZ and the mods people made for ZT2 is striking. And the anger ZT fans felt toward Frontier's 2013 ZT game, and its lack of creative freedom, is literally what Frontier based Planet Zoo's building depth on.

I have to disagree with the idea that pinnipeds are a lower priority when it comes to making this game feel complete. Yes, I'd put animals like meerkats, sloths, cervids, and aviary birds as a higher priority, but pinnipeds and penguins are a close second. And I put those two together, because it would be strange to have penguins but no other animals that would fit a similar theme. Zoos that have penguins generally also have a few other semi-aquatic animals, like seals, sea lions, otters, and pelicans, placed in the same section. The fact that we have the grey seal and giant otter, which are odd choices, doesn't mean we won't also have sea lions, walruses, or sea otters for instance.

And I admit, I like the idea of having giant otters for our amazon sections!

 

[Jeminyne]

Sure thing, here is the link, it is an interesting video, the leaks start at around the 18 minute mark. You will need to stop it and just focus on the screen behind the Devs, you will find the Sun Bear, King Penguin, Grey Seal and Giant Otter, they are in a variety of completion stages as not every single species has all the rigs completed.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NSndf71o7c

This is such an exciting news, I'm surprised there's not a thread for it! Or maybe I just missed it? Well I'm gonna make a thread about it just in case, haha

 

[FoxyDee]

This is such an exciting news, I'm surprised there's not a thread for it! Or maybe I just missed it? Well I'm gonna make a thread about it just in case, haha

Oh it is all over the place in this thread:

Hints of Upcoming DLC

I honestly think the birds being in that picture don't mean a thing. Those look to just be stock animals. And they wanted to fill the space in the upper-right with something... Which is the sky. So you gotta put something there. Definitely don't read into that. However, the animals listed...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Jeminyne]

Oh it is all over the place in this thread:

Hints of Upcoming DLC

I honestly think the birds being in that picture don't mean a thing. Those look to just be stock animals. And they wanted to fill the space in the upper-right with something... Which is the sky. So you gotta put something there. Definitely don't read into that. However, the animals listed...

forums.frontier.co.uk

ohhh awesome! Well I'm just gonna look at that thread instead!

 

[FoxyDee]

Oh and to be honest I am not sure if the giant otter would even be in the same dlc as the penguin and seal. As it seem the giant otter and sun bear are not finished, and only had 1 model. All the finished had 3 models for male,female and juvenile. So, maybe the otters will not be part of the same DLC.

 

[Aramar]

I'm surprised about the comments about the seal. I'm not an expert in zoos and I haven't visited many, but it happens that in several of the zoos I've visited there were grey seals (Madrid, Benidorm, Tallinn, Helsinki...), so for me the seal is not such a weird choice.

I did a quick search on Google and it's true that they are not very common, but some North American zoos have them too.

Also, when I think in general of semiaquatic animals, seals are one of the first animals that come to my mind.

Besides, they are also found in Europe and we all know this continent lacks representation.

For all those reasons, I'm happy that they are at least considering to add it to the game.

On the other hand, California sea lions are the equivalent to the polar bear/jaguar/kangaroo of the previous packs. They are a must if an aquatic DLC drops in. I don't even consider the possibility that they are replacing it with a seal. I'm sure we will have both.

 

[random goat]

Animal choices are always debatable. It's almost impossible to satisfy everyone's expectations as each of the thousands of PZ players would made their own picks based on what they'd consider most appropiate. I think both PZ basegame and DLCs tried to fill the obvious big ticket animals which are highlights in zoos, while also introducing more rare and/or unexpected species such as Nyala, Nile Monitor, Chinese Pangolin, Dall Sheep, etc.
To me, the only super odd choices so far have been the Himalayan Brown Bear and the Arctic Wolf. And still, it is clear why these were chosen over the Sun bear or the Arctic fox, for instance: time constraints.
I'm not forgetting the questionable SA animal choices, however, I think in that case the problem was the concept of the pack and not the animals per se. It should have been either an Amazonian pack or a Central American pack from the start.

Now back to the aquatic animals. I don't find those choices that odd tbh. We have to bear in mind (more so now that we have more information about how animals are made) that the inclusion of these animals doesn't exclude ones with similar rigs or that inhabit the same biome/area. Also, as it's been extensively pointed out in this thread, 3 animals don't make a pack, so at least one more would be missing (could be another penguin, a sea lion, the Small clawed otter....who knows).

-Grey seal. I see a strong reasoning behind this choice. Grey seals might not be as unique or interesting (from a conservation POV) as other seals, but they're relatively common and popular in zoos. In the wild, they are a super common sight in the UK (where Frontier is established), and it would, in a way, add an animal to the limited European roster.

-King penguin. The safe bet would have been the African or Humboldt penguin but, as it's been said, the King penguin is not rare at all in zoos and has a more striking look compared to others. Again, this does not mean we won't get more penguins down the line.

-Giant otter. After aquatic animals have been somewhat confirmed, I'd say I'm 90% sure we'll see either the Eurasian otter or the Asian small clawed otter sooner or later. A giant South American version of those is distinct enough to justify its inclusion (also conservation status).

 

[Jeminyne]

-Giant otter. After aquatic animals have been somewhat confirmed, I'd say I'm 90% sure we'll see either the Eurasian otter or the Asian small clawed otter sooner or later. A giant South American version of those is distinct enough to justify its inclusion (also conservation status).

I would also love the sea otter. Three otters seems pretty unlikely though. But I'd be happy with any species tbh, as long as they are different enough! (For instance having both a small clawed and north american river otter. Too similar for me.)

I also would love puffins, which are from under-represented Europe as well.

 

[nutrit]

I love the choice of Giant River otter over the Asian small clawed. I have 1000 reasons why it is a much better choice. The most important thing is that Asian small clawed otters are so tiny. But also not very unique, they look very similar to European, African or North American otter . Giant river otter on the other hand look so much different from the rest of the otters family.
I also really like big outdoor habitats and those small species just don’t fit them. They look much better in indoor exhibits. We need to hold our breaths for one more month and we will see for ourselves.

Maybe none of those species would be in the December dlc.

I would really like to see animals from the zoo signs that we still don’t have: African rhino, dromedary, howler monkey, red deer. If you would add to it the African leopard, impala and leaked 4 species it would make a very nice looking dlc with 10 new, random but different species.