What combat balances are proposed?

[Morbad]

The original design of the game had players losing and regaining their shields on a regular basis. That's why module damage exists, to add interesting game play challenges as a result of battle damage. This reliance on shields being the be all end all of most combat has really held the depth of combat back.

Yes.

However, it will take far more than a rebalancing of shields and SBCs to regain what was lost. Every facet of ship performance has seen radical inflation that makes combat in the current game vastly different from what we originally had. It's going to take a radical overhaul if they want to fix that...and I doubt they do.

 

[galahad2069]

If those FDL's are using thermal conduit PA's and someone has a feedback rail, then they'll certainly kill the Cutter. I don't know where you get the idea that they can't do it.

I don't know where you get the idea that I think they can't do it.
They can, if they are good enough (and the pilot of the Cutter is stupid enough to try and fight them). And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[galahad2069]

However, it will take far more than a rebalancing of shields and SBCs to regain what was lost.

Indeed.

For the information of anyone who wants to nerf shields to oblivion because open space 1v1's take too long: the PvP League Season 5 has just finished. It was 4v4 wingfights in rings. There was a max. 4 booster per ship limit, which means that the FDL's were flying around with 2700 to 2900 MJ's of prismatic shields, still the first focus rarely survived for more than a few minutes (the average was something between 2 to 5 minutes). Oh, and thermal conduit was banned, so it wasn't one of the reasons.

Nerf shields too hard and wingfights won't be fun anymore.

 

[Gunther_Bladderburst]

They aren't? If anything it's SCBs where the issues lie. If they wern't so damn strong in the first place than the weapon that counters them wouldn't seem so strong.

The original design of the game had players losing and regaining their shields on a regular basis. That's why module damage exists, to add interesting game play challenges as a result of battle damage. This reliance on shields being the be all end all of most combat has really held the depth of combat back.

Then maybe half the time the shields come back up and half the scb‘s effectiveness and shield strength?

 

[Kastor]

Yes.

However, it will take far more than a rebalancing of shields and SBCs to regain what was lost. Every facet of ship performance has seen radical inflation that makes combat in the current game vastly different from what we originally had. It's going to take a radical overhaul if they want to fix that...and I doubt they do.

I wouldn't mind so much if torpedoes weren't such a damn joke.

 

[Morbad]

Indeed.

For the information of anyone who wants to nerf shields to oblivion because open space 1v1's take too long: the PvP League Season 5 has just finished. It was 4v4 wingfights in rings. There was a max. 4 booster per ship limit, which means that the FDL's were flying around with 2700 to 2900 MJ's of prismatic shields, still the first focus rarely survived for more than a few minutes (the average was something between 2 to 5 minutes). Oh, and thermal conduit was banned, so it wasn't one of the reasons.

Nerf shields too hard and wingfights won't be fun anymore.

Yes, that's one of the reasons why other changes would have to happen in concert with a shield rebalance.

A synergy of buffs and balance changes has, despite the proportional greater defensive inflation, resulted in focus fire becoming more powerful than ever. The loss of much of stealth's effectiveness (due to both to thermal rebalancing around 2.1 and effects like emissive); long range hitscan weapons facilitating accurate module damage at extreme ranges; higher relative ship velocities making ramming both harder to avoid and more damaging, especially once shields fail; much lower opportunity cost of boosting...all contribute to ships being able get and stay within effective weapons range and deliver more rapidly debilitating attacks, especially once those inflated shields go down.

I wouldn't mind so much if torpedoes weren't such a damn joke.

In a system as unbalanced as what we've wound up with, effective hard counters become virtually mandatory whenever facing whatever it is they counter, without doing much to improve underlying issues. It's why the most effective counters have such enormous downsides.

I'm not at all a fan of these binary effects. A torpedo has essentially no utility in the current game, unless they are reverberating cascade and you can land enough of them to knock out the shield gen of an opponent...in which case the target usually has to immediately disengage or be destroyed in short order. I'd prefer more granularity to the effectiveness of most equipment and tactics.

Unfortunately, FDev seems to have taken the rock-paper-scissors idea too far.

 

[DemiserofD]

I agree that the current system isn't exactly well-balanced, but I don't think you need to go into full-scale revamps to fix it. A sequence of small tweaks could allow it to become less one-dimensional, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

For example, get rid of feedback Cascade, and instead make all weapons have this effect if you hit an SCB at the right time. This makes using scb's a more tactical process.

At the same time, do the opposite with repair limpets; rather than having them spontaneously fail the instant you take any damage, make it so the other player has to actively shoot the Limpet down.

And Nerf railguns for sure; in my opinion, they are easily the most overpowered weapon in the game right now. Dramatically reduce their breach chance, and change their damage type to Pure kinetic so they aren't the best choice for breaking Shields anymore.

 

[Qualityoflife]

Balance cannot be achieved until all battle specifics a brought in line with rock paper scissors!

The problem with that is no one will want to relieve themselves of their engineering!

When in competitive scenarios you should be power appropriated or it will always be a "gankfest".
Until that is figured out they need not attempt bcuz they'll end screwing it up!

 

[GoldenSilver484]

I agree that the current system isn't exactly well-balanced, but I don't think you need to go into full-scale revamps to fix it. A sequence of small tweaks could allow it to become less one-dimensional, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

For example, get rid of feedback Cascade, and instead make all weapons have this effect if you hit an SCB at the right time. This makes using scb's a more tactical process.

Laughs in beam laser.
Feedback cascade could use a tweak to how potent it is, but removing it could result in the return of the Duracell multirole ships and giving it to any weapons with a high ROF would easily result in SCBs being in a worse state than they currently are.

At the same time, do the opposite with repair limpets; rather than having them spontaneously fail the instant you take any damage, make it so the other player has to actively shoot the Limpet down.

Wait, you want the ECM to be a useful module? Like, give players a reason to use one over another heavy-duty booster?

Blasphemy!

And Nerf railguns for sure; in my opinion, they are easily the most overpowered weapon in the game right now. Dramatically reduce their breach chance, and change their damage type to Pure kinetic so they aren't the best choice for breaking Shields anymore.

Pure kinetic? Fully agree, it's a hypersonic piece of metal.

However, I would keep their breach chance high, but slightly reduce their breach damage and drastically reduce their ability to punch clean through to modules regardless of the impact angle.

The fact you can lose your FSD and thrusters to someone who you've been facing the entire fight because they've got a lol-pen gun is ridiculous.
No other weapon type can do that, even seekers need you to get somewhat behind your opponent.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

AFAIK - no combat balanacing has been proposed.

 

[Kamiyoda]

AFAIK - no combat balanacing has been proposed.

Its too late to stop them, just roll with it

 

[RELSPI]

Its too late to stop them, just roll with it

A rolling stone gathers no moss, which I'm sure is a balancing issue to some people.

 

[DemiserofD]

Laughs in beam laser.
Feedback cascade could use a tweak to how potent it is, but removing it could result in the return of the Duracell multirole ships and giving it to any weapons with a high ROF would easily result in SCBs being in a worse state than they currently are.

Honestly I think SCBs are a bit OP as-is. The other player should have to seek a moment when they're not taking constant fire in order to trigger them. If that's difficult to achieve, that's a good thing imo. Right now they're too easy to use. I don't think this should be reliant on a specific engineering effect on a specific type of weapon. You could potentially increase the amount of damage needed to cancel them as some compensation.

However, I would keep their breach chance high, but slightly reduce their breach damage and drastically reduce their ability to punch clean through to modules regardless of the impact angle.

Here's my problem with Rails; they're extremely good against shields AND extremely good against hull. Against shields, they're basically superior to laser weapons a grade higher, which is ridiculous. Sure, they generate lots of heat, but that can either be compensated for, OR actively USED to deal MORE damage. They have better DPE, better DPS, better Range. And then, once the shields go down, they're basically better than most kinetic weapons too! They've got better Armor Piercing, better DPS, and insane Breach Damage!

They're clearly excessively powerful. So I tried to think of ways you could nerf them and still keep their relative identity. The thing that makes the most sense to me is that they can't break through armor immediately, but rather need to wear down the target for a bit first. That way, the player is encouraged to have standard kinetic weapons to deal some hull damage first, and THEN they can snipe the power plant and kill the player.

It seemed the best way to preserve the weapon identity while bringing it closer to being balanced.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Its too late to stop them, just roll with it

Oh... i see.

Ahem... yes, things should be balanced... somehow.

That's my contribution.

 

[RELSPI]

 

[Kastor]

Unfortunately, FDev seems to have taken the rock-paper-scissors idea too far.

And then forgot to sharpen the scissors.

 

[Quantis Trap]

This has probably said and I didn't read it, but the balances Frontier is talking about are mainly just monetary reward balances. Balancing ships is a whole other MUCH deeper can of worms.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

If the Cutter sticks around to fight to the death, then sure, even a pair of FDLs (with any sensible weapon set, for that matter) should easily have the upper hand. There aren't many pairings of proper medium/large combat ships flown by similarly skilled pilots where I wouldn't give the 2v1 side strong odds to win, so...

The FDLs can't make the Cutter stick around long enough, though. Reinforced prismatic + 6 engineered boosters is >7000 MJ absolute, so with 4 pips to systems >18000 MJ absolute. More than enough to get away before shields drop, especially since the FDLs don't masslock it.

You shouldn't even lose a single ring of shields lol.

 

[bubbabenali]

You shouldn't even lose a single ring of shields lol.

That's the joke.
Having 12 medium an 3 huge hard points permanently locked at you, of course the cutter should not just be able to take a nap in the middle of the fight and getting woken by a random missile warning.
On the other hand: Sometimes I wish the FDL would get it's crappy PP back, just to fend of a bit of the meta.

 

[Eraden]

My biggest beef with how things are currently balanced is with armor. Once shields are down, it becomes almost a free for all in terms of taking out modules. Armor is almost worthless in this situation. Practically speaking, a good many modules, most notably the power plant, the power distributor and possibly the frame shift drive (not quite sure how a frame shift drive is actually set up on ships though so I might be wrong on this one) should be buried deep within a ship and be totally protected from incoming fire by the ship's armor. That armor should have to be stripped or at least severely damaged in order to reach those inner modules. This means armor tanking is nowhere near as good a thing as shield tanking. I think it would make combat much more interesting if armor were to actually have proper value in terms of defense.