Combat Completely Ruined for Non Engineered Players

[Scoob]

CZs were buffed - NPCs in there are much more combat-builds than before.

Are you sure they're buffed? When I was regularly doing CZ'd last year they were a massive challenge, more in terms of ships ganging up on me than anything else, though individual ships appeared to be much more dangerous. This was in a fully engineered Corvette. I return this year, same Corvette and it's easy. I thought at first, indeed I posted about it at the time, that the CG related CZ I was in had been deliberately made easier. However, it seems they're all easier than they once were. I persuaded my regular Wingmate to do a CZ with me, warning him how tough they can be. He turned up, a total CZ newbie and had no problems what so ever. He even went back to get his Sidewinder to come and play, it was silly.

Previously, I'd had to run away numerous times with a huge chunk out of my very tough hull as the enemies were outmatching me and doing such massive amounts of damage. When 3,500+ strong highly resistant, fast charging (relatively) shields are 50% gone in one volley from an attacker, well, that's tough. Sure, the Spec Op guys are pretty tough now, however, I've often taken on all four and won in the Corvette. I get beaten up a bit, but I win. Even non-Spec Ops guys were beating me up previously.

I do think the key to that old difficulty was the more ships the Player killed the more of the opposing faction would switch targets to the player. So, you really had to pace yourself and not kill too quickly. Now, I can plough through a CZ killing a ship a minute and there are no repercussions - unless I attack the Alpha Spec ops.

For me it's night and day between CZ'd a last year (tough) and CZ'd now (easy) no question. Bear in mind I was returning to the game after about a years break, so was rusty, yet it was still easier.

Scoob.

 

[Ydiss]

Are you sure they're buffed? When I was regularly doing CZ'd last year they were a massive challenge, more in terms of ships ganging up on me than anything else, though individual ships appeared to be much more dangerous. This was in a fully engineered Corvette. I return this year, same Corvette and it's easy. I thought at first, indeed I posted about it at the time, that the CG related CZ I was in had been deliberately made easier. However, it seems they're all easier than they once were. I persuaded my regular Wingmate to do a CZ with me, warning him how tough they can be. He turned up, a total CZ newbie and had no problems what so ever. He even went back to get his Sidewinder to come and play, it was silly.

Previously, I'd had to run away numerous times with a huge chunk out of my very tough hull as the enemies were outmatching me and doing such massive amounts of damage. When 3,500+ strong highly resistant, fast charging (relatively) shields are 50% gone in one volley from an attacker, well, that's tough. Sure, the Spec Op guys are pretty tough now, however, I've often taken on all four and won in the Corvette. I get beaten up a bit, but I win. Even non-Spec Ops guys were beating me up previously.

I do think the key to that old difficulty was the more ships the Player killed the more of the opposing faction would switch targets to the player. So, you really had to pace yourself and not kill too quickly. Now, I can plough through a CZ killing a ship a minute and there are no repercussions - unless I attack the Alpha Spec ops.

For me it's night and day between CZ'd a last year (tough) and CZ'd now (easy) no question. Bear in mind I was returning to the game after about a years break, so was rusty, yet it was still easier.

Scoob.

I don't think they've changed much in terms of difficulty in just a year. More in terms of post engineers.

 

[Mizbehave]

I think a lot of the people answering here haven't actually tried the noob zone out and thus shouldn't really be commenting on it based on their completely different experience of the rest of the game. Having completed the combat tutorial a new commander in their noobwinder is specifically told to try out the CZs in Orna.

If you want to demonstrate your piloting skills show me a video of you beating those CZs in the noobwinder, because I'd like to learn how it's actually possible.

 

[Morbad]

I think a lot of the people answering here haven't actually tried the noob zone out and thus shouldn't really be commenting on it based on their completely different experience of the rest of the game. Having completed the combat tutorial a new commander in their noobwinder is specifically told to try out the CZs in Orna.

If you want to demonstrate your piloting skills show me a video of you beating those CZs in the noobwinder, because I'd like to learn how it's actually possible.

The OP wasn't referring to the 'noob zone' or the starter ship.

Regardless, is there any the difference between the CZ's in Orna and a CZ elsewhere and what would a CMDR have access to before diving into one?

 

[Martind Forlon]

If you want to demonstrate your piloting skills show me a video of you beating those CZs in the noobwinder, because I'd like to learn how it's actually possible.

There is more things/activities which you can try in the game, but result may be somewhat "surprising". In case of CZs (in basic "E rated" sidey) is (imo) a very expected outcome visit to a rebuy screen. But so early in the game it is very painless lesson that not everything is survivable. I started new character (alt) some time ago, but difference in experience is HUGE when compared to new cmdr and I did just activities which I knew is possible handle at that starting lvl (and yet I had visit to rebuy screen due own mistake, which was a good lesson to me).

Edit: and there is possible go into CZ and just watch fighting ships. So you can go there safely, unless you start shooting or choose one side.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Are you sure they're buffed? When I was regularly doing CZ'd last year they were a massive challenge, more in terms of ships ganging up on me than anything else, though individual ships appeared to be much more dangerous. This was in a fully engineered Corvette. I return this year, same Corvette and it's easy. I thought at first, indeed I posted about it at the time, that the CG related CZ I was in had been deliberately made easier. However, it seems they're all easier than they once were. I persuaded my regular Wingmate to do a CZ with me, warning him how tough they can be. He turned up, a total CZ newbie and had no problems what so ever. He even went back to get his Sidewinder to come and play, it was silly.

Previously, I'd had to run away numerous times with a huge chunk out of my very tough hull as the enemies were outmatching me and doing such massive amounts of damage. When 3,500+ strong highly resistant, fast charging (relatively) shields are 50% gone in one volley from an attacker, well, that's tough. Sure, the Spec Op guys are pretty tough now, however, I've often taken on all four and won in the Corvette. I get beaten up a bit, but I win. Even non-Spec Ops guys were beating me up previously.

I do think the key to that old difficulty was the more ships the Player killed the more of the opposing faction would switch targets to the player. So, you really had to pace yourself and not kill too quickly. Now, I can plough through a CZ killing a ship a minute and there are no repercussions - unless I attack the Alpha Spec ops.

For me it's night and day between CZ'd a last year (tough) and CZ'd now (easy) no question. Bear in mind I was returning to the game after about a years break, so was rusty, yet it was still easier.

Scoob.

Yeah, now try in a normal ship and unengineered, dude. Try a FAS, e.g. Something that normal mortals play with.

 

[Scoob]

Yeah, now try in a normal ship and unengineered, dude. Try a FAS, e.g. Something that normal mortals play with.

But I tried in the exact same ship, just over a year apart and the experience was very different. Sure, if I turn up in another ship - I was doing them in an Engineered Sidewinder for a while - then it'll be tougher, but that's just tougher relative to a better ship, not tougher overall.

I stand by what I said, in my experience CZ'd are now significantly easier than they were, when using the exact same ship. Whereas before, a CZ would challenge even a heavily Engineered ship such as the Corvette, now it's generally a breeze, the only slight exception being those Spec Ops ships. Even then though, I've been able to take on four at once and win. I'm not a particularly great pilot by any means.

Scoob.

 

[Ydiss]

Yeah, now try in a normal ship and unengineered, dude. Try a FAS, e.g. Something that normal mortals play with.

I remember initially returning to the game with an unengineered FAS. It's pretty impotent. Still OK just... Yeh.

 

[Crank Larson]

That's absolute nonsense!

There should be gameplay for all types of players, not just the tryhards that want to grind the best gear.

There is. Apparently you chose the wrong place for your playstyle, and rather than learn from that, you've decided to come and tell us all about it. Which is fine, obviously - but it's not the game at fault here (note that that statement is categorically not that the game doesn't have faults, just that I personally don't believe that what you are describing is a problem in the slightest).

All I was saying is that it's stupid to have engineered NPCs in low intensity combat zones just because they released Horizons.

Or put another way, it's stupid for you to go into a CZ without engineering. There are many other places to pick a fight if you aren't ready for the CZ. Just because you personally don't like engineering doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist, and certainly doesn't mean that NPCs shouldn't have any.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

There is. Apparently you chose the wrong place for your playstyle, and rather than learn from that, you've decided to come and tell us all about it. Which is fine, obviously - but it's not the game at fault here (note that that statement is categorically not that the game doesn't have faults, just that I personally don't believe that what you are describing is a problem in the slightest).



Or put another way, it's stupid for you to go into a CZ without engineering. There are many other places to pick a fight if you aren't ready for the CZ. Just because you personally don't like engineering doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist, and certainly doesn't mean that NPCs shouldn't have any.

That's quite cynical to say when yesterday places like CZ were viable for all players and with a stealthy change the difficulty / requirements were buffed so engineered gear is required all of a sudden.
It was a very cheap trick to give purpose to the needless power creep. The proper way would have been to extend the gameplay like the ridiculous power buffs would require instead of gating existing content behind new grind walls.

 

[Stelar 7]

That's quite cynical to say when yesterday places like CZ were viable for all players and with a stealthy change the difficulty / requirements were buffed so engineered gear is required all of a sudden.
It was a very cheap trick to give purpose to the needless power creep. The proper way would have been to extend the gameplay like the ridiculous power buffs would require instead of gating existing content behind new grind walls.

That's a pretty uncharitable version of the story.

Yesterday the CZ were a place for Engineered ships.

Two weeks ago they were a place for engineered shops.

A game expecting people to engage with its content is not a personal attack, despite some reactionary hold outs screaming about how they shouldn't have to.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

That's a pretty uncharitable version of the story.

Yesterday the CZ were a place for Engineered ships.

Two weeks ago they were a place for engineered shops.

A game expecting people to engage with its content is not a personal attack, despite some reactionary hold outs screaming about how they shouldn't have to.

"Yesterday" is obviously not meant literally. It illustrates how the change came over night. It was basically a stealth nerf for existing progress.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

And frankly, goalposting gameplay behind arbitrary new grind isn't something I wouldn't describe as "content" rather as "harassment".

 

[Fedas]

I don't know. On the last Fed vs Imp CG (which was CZ fights), I was fluctuating between top 25% and 50%, and the main combat engineering I had was my huge MC (ENG4 overcharged + corrosive), and even that only about half of it. TBH, it helped, but not a huge amount that I'd have noticed.

I started in low intensity CZ, because I was worried about the ship qualities, but could get that one cleaned in low minutes. So I moved to high intensity CZ (mostly for the capital ships). I think about once I had to run from the high CZ (when all of the spec-ops ships attacked me at once), and I made a few capital ships to retreat, as I found them ridiculously easy to beat (8 double plasma shots to take a heat exchanger, when I was sitting nicely not moving at all w/o anyone attacking me at all).

Now, I think thargoids w/o Guardian weapons are pretty much impossible (did anyone get Hydra w/o Guardian weapons?), and Guardian weapons are a massive grind.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

"Yesterday" is obviously not meant literally. It illustrates how the change came over night. It was basically a stealth nerf for existing progress.

I have frequently found a CZ to be easy then difficult within an hour, they are very subject to RNG - in fact recently I did a High CZ quite easily, then went to a medium only to find myself having to jump out after being focused by 4 or 5 NPCs. So I think it's quite difficult to evaluate accurately.

 

[Psychomorph]

Engineers, the random magic generator, has single-handedly destroyed the game for a large portion of the player base. I expect it to move over to the first person portion and do the same. There is no way back. Only option is deep space exploration away from the madness.

I doubt Odyssey will remove engineers, in fact the opposite - probably best if you just go play another game and give up on this one

I tried Star Citizen, but it slowly begins to make me anticipate the Odyssey update... The madness.

Other than that, I feel like we are out of options. Is there anything aside No Man's Sky and X4?

 

[Kaocraft]

I don't know. On the last Fed vs Imp CG (which was CZ fights), I was fluctuating between top 25% and 50%, and the main combat engineering I had was MC (ENG4 overcharged + corrosive), and even that only about half of it.
I started in low intensity CZ, because I was worried about the ship qualities, but could get that one cleaned in low minutes. So I moved to high intensity CZ (mostly for the capital ships). I think about once I had to run from the high CZ (when all of the spec-ops ships attacked me at once), and I made a few capital ships to retreat, as I found them ridiculously easy to beat.

Now, I think thargoids w/o Guardian weapons are pretty much impossible (did anyone get Hydra w/o Guardian weapons?), and Guardian weapons are a massive grind.

How is this a counterpoint at all? The major complaint is that the enemies are bullet sponges now, and unproductive to fight without engineered weapons. You were using engineered guns, which even at G1, are orders of magnitude more powerful than off the shelf weapons. You're near the top of the line plus you've got multiple experimental effects going on. Woweee amazing you thought the challenge level was acceptable. Swap out those guns and try again, then get back to us.

 

[Stelar 7]

And frankly, goalposting gameplay behind arbitrary new grind isn't something I wouldn't describe as "content" rather as "harassment".

You are welcome to any salty interpretation you like, but if that feels like harassment your bar for harassment is very, very low.

Games place content behind achievement all the time. That's like game design 101. It's also notice there aren't scores of other places than combat zones to get into a space ship fight.

How is this a counterpoint at all? The major complaint is that the enemies are bullet sponges now, and unproductive to fight without engineered weapons. You were using engineered guns, which even at G1, are orders of magnitude more powerful than off the shelf weapons. You're near the top of the line plus you've got multiple experimental effects going on. Woweee amazing you thought the challenge level was acceptable. Swap out those guns and try again, then get back to us.

At G1 a gun is 30% better. Not 100 or 1,000 which is what an order of magnitude means. Also that was 1 experimental effect, caustic damage.

How hard is it to get one mumticannon to G4 Caustic? Takes less than an hour.

How stubborn do to need to be to refuse to engineer?

Very.

 

[rekurzion]

The OP wasn't referring to the 'noob zone' or the starter ship.

Regardless, is there any the difference between the CZ's in Orna and a CZ elsewhere and what would a CMDR have access to before diving into one?

game developers guiding players to a challenge slightly beyond the player ability feels like standard operating procedure to get a player engaged in the game.

to show players what else is possible and the dangers that lurk in the galaxy.

also

game: a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.​

what is a game without challenge?

 

[Crank Larson]

I have frequently found a CZ to be easy then difficult within an hour, they are very subject to RNG - in fact recently I did a High CZ quite easily, then went to a medium only to find myself having to jump out after being focused by 4 or 5 NPCs. So I think it's quite difficult to evaluate accurately.

I've found this too - and for me, that is a good thing. You do have to pay attention in CZs, and they can easily turn against you if you don't (or run into one of the elite squads). If I want to go and mindlessly destroy NPCs, I can go elsewhere.

Why are people arguing for less variety and easier battles? Surely that is a bad thing for a game?