A thread for the "fast travel" folks....

Well no it doesn't, because nav beacons have no bearing on where you enter systems, so putting nav beacons everywhere won't change the fact that you enter a system at the star with the most mass.
Okay you got me, poor choice of words. Imagine I said "some kind of beacon for the purpose of hyperspace navigation" not "nav beacon" since that term is already in use.

That said, I agree that FDev aren't especially likely to go down that road, because they're focused on Odyssey and they already provided a way to buy your way around the problem with a few billion credits (or a similarly rich friend).

I'm sure that could be explained away with a software update...
Sure, could also do that, just say that the navigation techniques used by capitol ships and fleet carriers has been miniaturized and is now available for general starship use.

Have the gravity wells only affect the rate of acceleration, not the current speed.

It’d take the same time to get to the halfway point, but you’d be able to carry the top speed from there all the way to the target, significantly reducing the total time for the longer trips.
I'd accept max speed dropouts with some sustained damage if it was an option.

You can pretty much do that now with the SC assist module, at least for the final approach. Blast in at full speed to 0:04 or so before activating the autopilot, and so long as you're lined up properly it'll drop you on target at well above normal drop speed. Note that you have to be lined up very precisely to manage drops above 5c or so, but they're possible. Extreme drop speeds also have a tendency to warp you through the station, which is a nice way to wake up after a long cruise!
 
Let's open up by stating the cavaet that I'm vehemently opposed to the "decimate travel times / bring in intrasystem jumps because supercsruise is boring", mainly because I believe in maintaining the sense of scale and sensation fo flying a spaceship rather than spamming the jump button. However, I'm also an ardent supporter of that which is scientifically plausible - and here we have science supporting interplanetary highways:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrXHw9Y_VQg


So armed with some science from the video above, can you create some enticing yet plausible alternatives to supercruise as the primary means of interplanetary travel?

I mean, this is a game with aliens with organic spaceships that shoot lightening at you and ships that handle like WWII planes in space. Anything that is primarily concerned with plausibility above gameplay is misguided. Gameplay first, then worry about realism in areas where it doesn't diminish gameplay. This idea sounds pretty complex to implement and wouldn't really add much of value to the gameplay that couldn't be done with a much simpler system like in-system jumps.
 
The 'Hutton Run' is almost a "Rite of Passage" in the game - I did it once... I've also done quite a few missions to distant stations (before I learned to read where I was going!) and the only drawback to those very long SC runs is there is nothing else you can do bar watch it count down the distance, I don't really mind (otherwise me exploring would have left behind may secondary / tertiary stars bodies undiscovered) but it really is 'dead' time as far a play is concerned.
 
The 'Hutton Run' is almost a "Rite of Passage" in the game - I did it once... I've also done quite a few missions to distant stations (before I learned to read where I was going!) and the only drawback to those very long SC runs is there is nothing else you can do bar watch it count down the distance, I don't really mind (otherwise me exploring would have left behind may secondary / tertiary stars bodies undiscovered) but it really is 'dead' time as far a play is concerned.
Well the Hutton Run is long enough that it merits a coffee break, maybe go walk the dog. But for less extreme long cruises, I've more than once gotten engrossed in the Galaxy Map, Galnet, Codex etc for long enough to overshoot the destination station.
 
"Scientifically Plausable" is very funny combination of words here. Mostly everything regarding interplanetary and deep space travel in Elite defies "scientific" in ways unimaginable, which is okay, since it's just a video game.

I'm up for any way to speed up travel times, however, I'm strictly against FSD between stars in systems, no matter how convenient it is, it would screw a lot more about gameplay and travel than fix things, no matter how convenient that looks.

I'm also not totally okay with "interplanetary highways" for 2 reasons:
1. It's still relatively passive gameplay, just as current SC.
2. One must be crazy to even assume FDev will ever go for it, too much hassle for FDev to dig into.

I'm convinced that many people have false perception of space travel in general in ED. The main problem isn't exactly time it takes, but how uneventful it is. You just find proper vector and just either do minimal corrections or if your path is through the emptiness of the void, you just twiddle your thumbs, watching the timer.

People who say that "you can choose not to do long space travel" make me feel quite uncomfortable. It's part of the gameplay. You absolutely should take long and short trips, whenever necessary. Just discarding slew of potential gameplay, because it's time consuming is simply unwise, and very bad from game design perspective.

However, I'm completely with suggestions like other users had previously:
1. Slingshots > cut down on deccel and accel times around gravity wells.
2. SC boost.

It relatively easy to pull off, because in first variant you just tweak universal values around bodies for SC and again, introduce universal mechanic. There's already a groundwork in terms of glide, you can technically repurpose it for slingshots, or do something similar. At least interface could be alike. And second suggestion might be even easier, plus better (IMO), as it would be more gamey and engaged.

See, FDev aren't oblivious to the issue, which gives me the hope, as they introduced SC assist for folks who prefer more passive gameplay, and I'm sure ones who are strongly against any changes to SC travel. But they didn't make anything for people who want to be more engaged, with high risk/reward, which possibly makes travel faster, with tradeoffs. I'd be even okay if either of those mechanics would require specific module to be installed on the ship, just like SCAM.
 
Who cares about the science? It's boring watching the clock tick down or seeing a high grade USS that's 500,000 Ls away

It says a lot about this game that (1) it's considered a badge of honour to go to Hutton and do nothing for an hour and (2) people say 'just watch netflix', I don't own another game where I have to go off and do something else while I wait for some gameplay to relieve the tedium
 
We already have fast travel. It's called hyperspace.

It works for all distance as far as the two stars are in different systems.

When the stars are far appart in the same systems, it works the same,
except there is a 10-60 min or more timer before you get there.

Makes perfect sense and it's great design as watching a timer get down to 0:06 before pressing a key
is pretty much the apex of engaging and well designed gameplay.

/s
 
Doesn’t need to be overly twitch based, just steady piloting using subtle visual cues and FSD noises, etc.
I was thinking more along the lines of visual cues, but following these gravitational / transport network "routes" could permit faster supercruise travel due to "favourable gravitational conditions"

Sure, I'd be delighted if FDev implemented full N-body Newtonian orbital mechanics. Then you too could cruise the Interplanetary Highway described in that video. Transit time from Earth to Mars is estimated at around 5000 years or so, but it sure is economical.
See my comment above, I was (deliberately ambiguously) floating the idea that instead of slingshotting and using orbital mechanics in timescales of millennia to get to destinations, we could use these routes as "interplanetary freeways" and supercruise at faster speeds by following the routes.

Ah, the good old Interplanetary Transport Network (ITN)
I’ve mentioned this any number of times as a way to improve SC, not replace it.
I've chimed in on a couple of your threads, was it one of your recent threads I even made gravity well diagrams showing how we could have a slingshot acceleration zone, but closer to the planet we'd "fall into" the gravitywell as we currently do in supercruise?

So, all the OP really suggests is shorting the timing on the super-cruise load/wait screen for in system travel, or speeding up the distance traveled while in super-cruise.
Not simply reducing travel times, as that could be brut forced with an increase in maximum speed, but instead suggesting an even more nuanced approach to interplanetary supercruise allowing the pilot to follow these lanes to fly faster. I say "even more nuanced" because there are already ways and means of going faster in supercruise if you are willing to put in the effort to find them rather than just complain that supercruise is too slow and takes too long.

We could inject different types of materials into the FSD for faster super-cruise speed in systems, just like we do for extended hyperspace jumps. For systems with gas giants, you could fuel scoop the hydrogen/ammonia for faster in system travel.
OH! That is a fresh idea - meeza likey!

Now if FD could get on board with the law of motion; Yes, I'm looking at you thrusters!
Dude, as an FAoff pilot, that pulls my heart strings, make it so FDEV, take away the arbitrary speed limits of thrusters, put them back to newtonian Force/Mass/Acceleration calculations...
I mean, this is a game with aliens with organic spaceships that shoot lightening at you and ships that handle like WWII planes in space. Anything that is primarily concerned with plausibility above gameplay is misguided. Gameplay first, then worry about realism in areas where it doesn't diminish gameplay. This idea sounds pretty complex to implement and wouldn't really add much of value to the gameplay that couldn't be done with a much simpler system like in-system jumps.
...and let the "planes in space" brigade deal with it, go slowly, or git gud!

Not to mention that the current supercruise travel times / speeds aren't grounded on any kind of physics or reality either, they're just some arbitrary values someone at FD came up with, which pretty much invalidates any kind of arguments based on "realism / plausability".
The Supercruise Speed Limit "number" wasn't randomly picked like a bingo ball, it was picked as a result of a decision making process aiming to balance entertaining travel times vs. sense of scale. If the "number" was set at 300,000c, most bubble stations would be so close it'd be a keystroke to get to them, might as well go for "jumps from star to station", if it were set at 100c, you'd be as well leave the game running while you went to work for a day as it'd take ages to get anywhere. 2,000c was what FDev felt was the sweetspot, slightly adjust it to 2,001c as another nod to "Space Odyssey" - alongside dtanford ring space station design with central loading barrel replete with plasma window airlock and blue danube docking music.

I always watch at least the first few seconds of his videos just to have someone call me a wonderful person.
So you'll understand why it is that when my kids get up in the middle of the night for a glass of water as the go past I wave at them and say "hello wonderful person" - my 9 + 13 year old kid's don't fully get it, and just think I'm being silly.

I vote for upping the SC cruise max speed, SC acceleration and SC deceleration by a factor of 2x-4x. It would still take time, but less time to get somewhere...
You can already increase SC acceleration by getting to frack out of the orbital plane, and you can use gravity braking to increase deceleration, put some effort in and get better results. However I had hoped that this transport network would have also conjured up images of "supercruise fast lanes" - something the pilot has to fly the ship through to get there quicker than they can currently do, but not as lazy as spamming jump button.

36 Opiuchi
I just looked this up, its 4.2million LS from star as opposed to Hutton's near as damnit 6.4million LS - are you saying this used to be further away? Or just that FDev curtailed the credits fountain that place would have became when credits reward became linked to supercruise travel distance?
 
Firstly, I'm pretty much against speeding things up just because I want to get from A to B faster. I've no problem with journey time being a consideration of where I go. I've said as much before. I'd like more to do on long trips but that's a separate issue. I like things to not be too quick, it's good if some places are handy and some are remote. So whatever adds to or makes sense in-universe. Not being able to jump to Proxima when there are closer stars you can jump betwen doesn't seem to make much sense in-universe. And although there's no hard and fast right or wrong one way of the other and in-universe explanation that says a drive can lock on to a nav beacon (perhaps there's still a minimum separation between that and the star before the hyperdrive gets confused, with disastrous consequences) wouldn't sound unreasonable. It would raise the question about whether or not nav beacons should be attackable targets in faction struggles.
 
"Scientifically Plausable" is very funny combination of words here. Mostly everything regarding interplanetary and deep space travel in Elite defies "scientific" in ways unimaginable, which is okay, since it's just a video game.

I'm up for any way to speed up travel times, however, I'm strictly against FSD between stars in systems, no matter how convenient it is, it would screw a lot more about gameplay and travel than fix things, no matter how convenient that looks.

I'm also not totally okay with "interplanetary highways" for 2 reasons:
1. It's still relatively passive gameplay, just as current SC.
2. One must be crazy to even assume FDev will ever go for it, too much hassle for FDev to dig into.

I'm convinced that many people have false perception of space travel in general in ED. The main problem isn't exactly time it takes, but how uneventful it is. You just find proper vector and just either do minimal corrections or if your path is through the emptiness of the void, you just twiddle your thumbs, watching the timer.

People who say that "you can choose not to do long space travel" make me feel quite uncomfortable. It's part of the gameplay. You absolutely should take long and short trips, whenever necessary. Just discarding slew of potential gameplay, because it's time consuming is simply unwise, and very bad from game design perspective.

However, I'm completely with suggestions like other users had previously:
1. Slingshots > cut down on deccel and accel times around gravity wells.
2. SC boost.

It relatively easy to pull off, because in first variant you just tweak universal values around bodies for SC and again, introduce universal mechanic. There's already a groundwork in terms of glide, you can technically repurpose it for slingshots, or do something similar. At least interface could be alike. And second suggestion might be even easier, plus better (IMO), as it would be more gamey and engaged.

See, FDev aren't oblivious to the issue, which gives me the hope, as they introduced SC assist for folks who prefer more passive gameplay, and I'm sure ones who are strongly against any changes to SC travel. But they didn't make anything for people who want to be more engaged, with high risk/reward, which possibly makes travel faster, with tradeoffs. I'd be even okay if either of those mechanics would require specific module to be installed on the ship, just like SCAM.

In supercruise 95% of the time, first thing I do is get to frack out of the orbital plane, then parabola in towards my destination, and the remaining 5% of the time when it's a six figure LS distance to the starport, I catch up on galnet and sniff around the galaxy map for systems I'm working, or any relevant BGS shifts I might want to oppose or support.

In other threads on fast travel, I've actually suggested supercruise slingshotting, I even made some diagrams for it where the green section fo the gravity well is for slingshotting and the orange section is when you "fall in" and gravity brake:

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I'm cool with anything that allows the pilot to use some skill to reduce travel times, but I'm vehemently opposed to anything that nudges us towards a cookie clicker "press J to jump to star system, press K to jump to starport, press L to land" which is where I see intrasystem jumps taking us.


Firstly, I'm pretty much against speeding things up just because I want to get from A to B faster. I've no problem with journey time being a consideration of where I go. I've said as much before. I'd like more to do on long trips but that's a separate issue. I like things to not be too quick, it's good if some places are handy and some are remote. So whatever adds to or makes sense in-universe. Not being able to jump to Proxima when there are closer stars you can jump betwen doesn't seem to make much sense in-universe. And although there's no hard and fast right or wrong one way of the other and in-universe explanation that says a drive can lock on to a nav beacon (perhaps there's still a minimum separation between that and the star before the hyperdrive gets confused, with disastrous consequences) wouldn't sound unreasonable. It would raise the question about whether or not nav beacons should be attackable targets in faction struggles.

Cavaet: not sure if you know this, but beacons are only present in occupied / populated systems, and it's not the beacon that your FSD uses as its waypoint for hyper jumps, it's the gravitational pull of the star. If it were the beacon, how would we ever "explore" unsettled systems? So there wouldn't be much mileage in nuking the beacon. As for not making things faster just for the sakes of it, I agree, there is however a fairly vocal segment of the community, being posterboyed/spearheaded by obsidian ant, decrying travel times as too long and really boring, which then gets construed into "just make it a jump to destination" at which point I flare up with "The hell you don't!", so for as long as OA has been bleating on about travel taking too long and thus not being fun, I've been exploring ways and means of "making longer space travel faster and or more fun by using more engaging techniques". Hence slingshotting as a previous suggestion, and similarly, I laid a breadcrumb trail here for others to arrive at the conclusion of "supercruise fast lanes" with the video in the OP.
 
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What's the maximum distance in LS you think we should be allowed to travel?
It's a good question...and in my subjective view, I was thinking 10-15 mins SC or around 250k-350k ls...but that time/distance tolerance would be different for everyone.

It's a tricky one and I do get the 'sense of scale' argument but when you look at it objectively, ED is a game and sitting doing nothing for 20, 60, 90 mins is not IMO gameplay.

Edit: I do wonder about exploration though and if this sort of secondary star jump in would ruin exploration or make it better...again that's subjective.
 
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Cavaet: not sure if you know this, but beacons are only present in occupied / populated systems, and it's not the beacon that your FSD uses as its waypoint for hyper jumps, it's the gravitational pull of the star. If it were the beacon, how would we ever "explore" unsettled systems? So there wouldn't be much mileage in nuking the beacon. As for not making things faster just for the sakes of it, I agree, there is however a fairly vocal segment of the community, being posterboyed/spearheaded by obsidian ant, decrying travel times as too long and really boring, which then gets construed into "just make it a jump to destination" at which point I flare up with "The hell you don't!", so for as long as OA has been bleating on about travel taking too long and thus not being fun, I've been exploring ways and means of "making longer space travel faster and or more fun by using more engaging techniques". Hence slingshotting as a previous suggestion, and similarly, I laid a breadcrumb trail here for others to arrive at the conclusion of "supercruise fast lanes" with the video in the OP.
That's how it runs at present I agree but I wouldn't personally have an issue with saying that the hyperdrive could lock on to a beacon - large mass OR beacon signal. And without a beacon it might be interesting if there was some element of chance, depending upon the relative masses of the stars and their separations.

I like the "more skill involved" aspect (you can already get a bit more progress with some). I'd also like ship-based tasks to be getting on with. Like what? Hmm, well, we're not going to get ship maintenance, or even cleaning the windows for once I doubt. When exploring it would be nice to be able to get on with analysing the FSS data whilst flying to the next body to map. Or scrutinising market prices once you're in the system. Some of these might even lend themselves to multi-crew tasks.

Sticking your feet up, grabbing a beer, and watching the distance tick down should be an option, and not one that's being slower for the sake of it. But it shouldn't be the only option.
 
I'm convinced that many people have false perception of space travel in general in ED. The main problem isn't exactly time it takes, but how uneventful it is. You just find proper vector and just either do minimal corrections or if your path is through the emptiness of the void, you just twiddle your thumbs, watching the timer.

I think this is only partially correct. There are lots of ways to make it more eventful that would detract from the experience even more rather than enhance it. For example, there could be NPCs that interdict you every few minutes on long cruises like hutton. No one wants this; it would certainly make supercruise more eventful, but it would be a nuisance. Conversely I don't see very many ways that supercruise could be made more eventful in a way that enhances the experience without fundamentally changing how supercruise works (i.e., lots of work). Tweaking numbers on the other hand is easy. Supercruise is always a means to an end; you're always trying to get someplace to do something else. Cutting down on time spent in supercruise in favor of more time spent doing the stuff you're actually trying to do can only be a good thing. I'm not convinced the game needs yet more minigames to occupy our time in supercruise.
 
Essentially we're saying just split binaries into separate systems?
That is because you aren't giving it a serious thought. The difference between inter- and intra-system jumps is that intra-system jumps have space in there that could be used. You know, the Expanse's "oh dear, a weird SOS out in the middle of nowhere: do we take the detour or just go to our destination?". You make SC valuable by adding fun to it, not by making it mandatory and keeping it unfun.

Also, once upon a time there was a gold rush on long range passenger missions, Katzenstein dock at 36 Opiuchi was way longer than Hutton! Of course FD got rid of it but if you ask me it was great gameplay for those with time on their hands and still could be.

No, that wasn't great gameplay to you. Because you can still do it and you don't. The rewards were great, and to you good enough to endure the gameplay that isn't fun without getting relatively many fake space monies for it. That shows how weak it is: good gameplay stands on its own and is fun even without reward. And no amount of fake money is worth doing boring and shallow crap, because I can do boring and shallow crap for real monies. :)

If you do provide an alternative no one will do it, not even those that do enjoy the travel.

Indeed. Because it is ty gameplay. People only do it because it isn't fun, and even those pretending it is cool will stop the second there is any kind of alternative. These last two points you raised prove beyond without any doubt what we currently have is crap.
 
What's the maximum distance in LS you think we should be allowed to travel?

As much as you want. Nobody wants to take away your right to sit in front of your screen and stare at a black screen for as much as your heart desires. Have at it, eat your heart out. Others would just like a less painful alternative. But as you just said, if you had an alternative you would instantly stop doing SC. So the problem isn't about you not being allowed to SC, the issue is you are scared FD might stop forcing you to do something because you cant bring yourself to do it on your own.

Cant think of a more damning way to describe a game.
 
I think this is only partially correct. There are lots of ways to make it more eventful that would detract from the experience even more rather than enhance it. For example, there could be NPCs that interdict you every few minutes on long cruises like hutton. No one wants this; it would certainly make supercruise more eventful, but it would be a nuisance. Conversely I don't see very many ways that supercruise could be made more eventful in a way that enhances the experience without fundamentally changing how supercruise works (i.e., lots of work). Tweaking numbers on the other hand is easy. Supercruise is always a means to an end; you're always trying to get someplace to do something else. Cutting down on time spent in supercruise in favor of more time spent doing the stuff you're actually trying to do can only be a good thing. I'm not convinced the game needs yet more minigames to occupy our time in supercruise.
NPCs interdicting you on long cruise technically isn't possible anyway, because there are no mechanics for them to catch up to you at increasing speed.

Slingshot mechanic may take some changes to how SC works, if they choose to tweak gravity well effects on speed, I'm not sure that would be necessary, but it would be positive, welcome change overall, IMHO.

Another thing that some users suggested is SC boost. This will not affect current SC mechanics at all. From what they suggest (and I think it is brilliant), you tap boost, which starts accelerating you very quickly, but longer it continues, the harder it is to keep your ship "steady", and if you fail, you drop from SC in normal space, with damage to hull and long FSD cooldown.

The general idea is that we could have current, mostly AFK supercruise, with SCAM or not. And we would have more engaged SC for people who want more active gameplay, with serious risks, that can make your way even longer, if you fail, than if you just travelled normally.

See, ED desperately needs some gameplay for in-system travel in particular. It's completely uneventful, boring, and mostly risk free. There are literally no hazards, other than players/NPCs (latter not being real hazard as well).
 
A fun mental excercise, even though I'm vehemently against reducing the "non-gameplay" parts of teh game.

I'd say... my computer retains knowledge of each warp made, detailed gemoetric data recording its path around stars and clouds, and so any previous warp jump can be significantly reduced in duration. Also one can download such data from others. The download/upload time of such data to/from users wold be trivial as it only actually needs to store begin and end points, not the actual path.
 
Lol.

"We don't need horses and cars and airplanes, people will always complain their commute took too long. Let's just walk and stop talking about improvements."
I agree, he clearly made a slippery slope error. But let's not compete to see just how much people can find to complain about, eh? It gets pretty silly...
 
Another mini game of some sort would be interesting and potentially really useful and fun. But the only use for SC time is to take a break, use the Supercruise Assist module to get another bite to eat, or another beverage etc.

Just speed up SC by 2x-4x easy peasy, more time in USS, HGE's, which makes us all $$$, or get more mats quicker, etc.
 
NPCs interdicting you on long cruise technically isn't possible anyway, because there are no mechanics for them to catch up to you at increasing speed.

I wasn't really being particularly serious with that, it's just an example. The point is, more eventful is not necessarily an improvement.

Another thing that some users suggested is SC boost. This will not affect current SC mechanics at all. From what they suggest (and I think it is brilliant), you tap boost, which starts accelerating you very quickly, but longer it continues, the harder it is to keep your ship "steady", and if you fail, you drop from SC in normal space, with damage to hull and long FSD cooldown.

Could work, but might still be more effort than frontier wants to spend revising a finished feature. I also still think that any attempt to minigame-ize supercruise will be fundamentally flawed because you're still just trying to take empty time and put something extraneous in there to occupy that time instead of just ensuring that the majority of players' time is spent in the activities they're actually trying to focus on. I think trying to find ways to make supercruise is more tolerable is asking the wrong question. There's already plenty to enjoy in Elite, the question is how to shorten the gaps between those periods of activity. I don't inherently dislike the idea above, but it feels like trying to shoehorn in yet another minigame where none is really necessary.
 
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