C'mon, this is faintly ridiculous.

[Deleted member 182079]

ED at launch wasn't exactly setting the gaming world on fire so maybe those people had a point? It's a much better game now.

It's a better game compared to back then, for sure, but balance wise it's all over the shop, but I don't think that's entirely by accident as has been mentioned several times the way things are now in terms of incomes means FDev will sell more cosmetic items. I'm actually surprised that FC cost hasn't seen a discount at least because the associated store items are some of the most expensive in the game in terms of Arx.

I'm not coming here to demand change, because it won't happen for above reasons, but I'm still free to reminisce about a time when that balance felt more 'right', at least from the viewpoint of credit balance vs ship and module cost. One increased by a factor of 1,000 at least, the other remained static. I went through the rather satisfying ship progression when it still worked, the loss is firmly with new players who will not be able to experience the same. But that's a decision made by Frontier, and players can decide whether that works for them, or not.

I suppose a lot of new (and by that I rather mean younger) players that have grown up with and are accustomed to the current gen game design of constantly getting showered with in-game currency, bonus items and what not (the equivalent of a 100% sugar diet - look at the Forza games where you earn a new car or multiple, vanity items, AND credits after almost every race) I'm not surprised that those have a problem with a slower progression curve. That's modern gaming for you (unfortunately, from my point of view).

 

[antiriad]

Nope apparently the game needs to change so they can feel special.

This is an assumption you have made - I cannot find any comments from other players that support it.

Certainly for me, the inverse is true. One of the things I love about Elite is that I, as a player, am completely insignificant. A mere speck of humanity in the vastness of the galaxy. So many games put the player as "the Chosen One", etc, and that's fine, but this game is different and I for one love that about it.

I wouldn't presume to speak for the motivation of others, particularly those who seek different things from their gaming experience than I do.

 

[Jacobis9000]

I kind of agree... I started about six weeks ago and I've got 200 million now. I got into large ships really quick, I expected progression to be slower, and to spend more time desperate for credits until I was making the big bucks. On the other hand, a large part of the fun of this game for me is trying out new ships and flying different ships, so I like that I've got a little collection of ships already and I've had fun getting them and flying them.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

This is an assumption you have made - I cannot find any comments from other players that support it.

Certainly for me, the inverse is true. One of the things I love about Elite is that I, as a player, am completely insignificant. A mere speck of humanity in the vastness of the galaxy. So many games put the player as "the Chosen One", etc, and that's fine, but this game is different and I for one love that about it.

I wouldn't presume to speak for the motivation of others, particularly those who seek different things from their gaming experience than I do.

I love that about ED too!

They are making suggestions that would lessen my enjoyment of it. So why shouldn't I presume??

 

[Fenwe]

I'm not really sure what part of my comment you disagree with, or find boring, TBH.

If earnings, in ED, were more modest I'd still have a fleet of ships for different activities - It'd just be a smaller fleet, and I wouldn't have a duplicate of it permanently based in Colonia.

I really enjoy building specialised ships.
I just think even that would be more rewarding if it wasn't just a case of rocking up at Jameson Memorial with, effectively, a blank cheque every time I decided to build a new ship.

I can agree with making certain specific changes.

Bounty's need to go up. Makes no sense getting slapped with a 400 credit bounty shooting an 'innocent'
Now that Horizons has been folded into all accounts, make NPCs tougher engineered targets.
Make going from point A to Point B with a hold full of valuables actually 'dangerous'. Force you to plot high sec, like in Eve. Of course their player driven economy means time to market can be important.

These kinds of things naturally raise the difficulty. Would increase all kinds of risks.

The fundamental issue though is that ED is just like life. If you don't do anything stupid, you make credits. Experienced pilots rarely do anything stupid, and when we do - We use the ship with the cheapest rebuy.

Some of the suggestions I've seen in this thread make no game sense. I've spent how many hours gathering mats, flying to engineers getting my ship GTG, and when I make a mistake against an Interceptor - I lose my engineered stuff? Want to raise the rebuy sure, but that and other suggestions in here means I need to be a masochist to enjoy the game.

 

[antiriad]

I love that about ED too!

They are making suggestions that would lessen my enjoyment of it. So why shouldn't I presume??

Actually most people are simply saying they preferred the game the way it used to be, not suggesting it be reverted to that state. Many people in this thread, myself included, simply enjoyed the initial progression and feel it's a pity that newer players don't have the same opportunities we had. You disagree, and prefer the more rapid progression through the ships that exists now - and that is fine.

Presumption of the motives of another often comes across as arrogant and antagonistic - for my part, that is why I try to avoid it. Again, you may feel different, but you should expect others to make presumptions about you as a result.

 

[Fenwe]

It's a better game compared to back then, for sure, but balance wise it's all over the shop, but I don't think that's entirely by accident as has been mentioned several times the way things are now in terms of incomes means FDev will sell more cosmetic items. I'm actually surprised that FC cost hasn't seen a discount at least because the associated store items are some of the most expensive in the game in terms of Arx.

I'm not coming here to demand change, because it won't happen for above reasons, but I'm still free to reminisce about a time when that balance felt more 'right', at least from the viewpoint of credit balance vs ship and module cost. One increased by a factor of 1,000 at least, the other remained static. I went through the rather satisfying ship progression when it still worked, the loss is firmly with new players who will not be able to experience the same. But that's a decision made by Frontier, and players can decide whether that works for them, or not.

I suppose a lot of new (and by that I rather mean younger) players that have grown up with and are accustomed to the current gen game design of constantly getting showered with in-game currency, bonus items and what not (the equivalent of a 100% sugar diet - look at the Forza games where you earn a new car or multiple, vanity items, AND credits after almost every race) I'm not surprised that those have a problem with a slower progression curve. That's modern gaming for you (unfortunately, from my point of view).

I'm surprised they didn't raise the cost of FCs due to some of the game instabilities that have arisen.

Huh, so what was your first computer game? Mine was wizardry by sir tech.

I'm not into participation trophies either, btw. The problem though is that because ED has no 'end game' I'm not sure how ED could ramp up difficulty\cost without crippling new \ inexperienced players.

 

[Kantaris]

It's simple, too many have complained that they can't get a fully kitted out Anaconda after a couple of hours play

???All they needed to do was some mining for a couple hours and get a fully kitted out Anaconda???

That's how I got my start, friend showed me how to mine LTDs back in August-ish.

I flew out there with a little ship that had like 12 cargo space, ONE trip was enough to upgrade to a T9, then one trip with that and I had more credits than I knew what to do with.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I'm surprised they didn't raise the cost of FCs due to some of the game instabilities that have arisen.

Huh, so what was your first computer game? Mine was wizardry by sir tech.

I'm not into participation trophies either, btw. The problem though is that because ED has no 'end game' I'm not sure how ED could ramp up difficulty\cost without crippling new \ inexperienced players.

Honestly, I think the price is ok as it is - I'd probably reduce it by a couple of billion, but increase the upkeep instead, as that's laughably low (though the initial value during the Beta was too much) - you can earn the weekly upkeep for a maxed out carrier in about 10-20 minutes, easy - no mining required. That would probably more likely put people off keeping one if they don't consider them worth it. I find mine highly useful so would put up with anything up to 50m a week. Just for context - 50m when I started playing the game was a number I never thought I'd ever achieve. Let alone flying not one but several large A-rated ships (Conda, Cutter, Corvette, T10, Beluga). It's basically pocket change now.

I think one key issue with a lot of players (and I was no different) is that they fall into the trap of thinking that bigger = better - the ships you fly early on are actually more fun to fly than supposedly "end-game" ships, and you can do pretty much everything with them that you can do with a large one. The only difference is being more efficient.

I've come full circle, after actively grinding towards the Corvette (nice ship, but combat is no different in it than mining - target asteroid enemy vessel and keep squeezing the trigger until done) I mostly fly small pad ships, Cobra, Vipers, Vulture, Courier, even the Sidey is incredibly enjoyable with some engineering. Everything is much more visceral in them. I do fly the large ships of course, but after half an hour I can't wait to get out of them again.

But I suppose players will want to try the big ships first before either coming to the same conclusion, or indeed prefer them over the small and medium ones - same goes for the FC. Getting to the Anaconda took me months (although I didn't grind towards it specifically, eventually I gathered enough credits for it to be within my reach), and it was a bit of a wow moment because I was so used to flying much smaller ships until then. I don't think you get that sensation if you can obtain it so much quicker now. But as I said, I'm just glad I was able to experience it, as that is no longer possible unless you deliberately gimp yourself in terms of earnings.

PS - My first game... I think it was Frogger on a friend's VCS. Simpler times, for better or worse.

 

[Barlog M.]

Another elderly snowflake whines about old good days.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'm looking forward to having all my engineers unlocked so I can begin playing the game.

Out of curiosity what is it you plan to do when playing the game AFTER all engineers are done. IF it is PvP then fair enough... But if it is PvE , TBH engineering arguably breaks the game. It should not be possible to build a ship so strong you can park it up full of turrets , leave it be, go and have your tea, then come back and cash your credits..
But you can do just that of you build the "right" ship.
Obviously you play the game as you see.fit within the rules but you may be dissapointed if you see all the game.loops as a means to an end and expect some nirvana after.

 

[zarrazee]

OP.
Agreed 100%. Blame the kids and the "I want/deserve/entitled" generation.

It's the main reason I've wiped my save and started over several times; it's just way too easy to make credits.

 

[Dommarraa]

Its a purposfull and fully thought out change in target audience.
The old 84ers wanted a game that took months or years to play, 5000 hours was just getting the hang of things, but they have already purchased the game so little money to be made out of them.
Now its focused on the 10-100 hours and move on to the next game demographic - Not disparaging those players, it seems the norm and its where the money's at, but they want different things from a game, so have been given it.

 

[Morbad]

Huh, so what was your first computer game?

Telengard.

Roll up a character, get tossed into a random dungeon with no map. Wander around until some random encounter kills you...then roll up a new character, because death erases your save. Sometimes, if you lucked out on rolls, were very cautious, and the fates were kind, you'd get further the next time.

The problem though is that because ED has no 'end game' I'm not sure how ED could ramp up difficulty\cost without crippling new \ inexperienced players.

How does a slower progression, for lack of a better phrase, cripple new/inexperienced players?

I'm inclined to believe the opposite is the case, due to my own experiences, where my CMDR's means never outstripped my piloting ability.

Some of the suggestions I've seen in this thread make no game sense. I've spent how many hours gathering mats, flying to engineers getting my ship GTG, and when I make a mistake against an Interceptor - I lose my engineered stuff? Want to raise the rebuy sure, but that and other suggestions in here means I need to be a masochist to enjoy the game.

I don't feel like a masochist for wanting consequences, nor for finding the idea that the best equipment available should have trade-offs (like scarcity) that may make it wise to save some of it for special occasions.

I can see why many people would disagree with increased consequences, but I'm not sure what doesn't make sense...that your CMDR's supposedly custom built tool wouldn't be instantaneously restored, in it's fully customized state, for a small fraction of the cost of the base item?

The old 84ers wanted a game that took months or years to play, 5000 hours was just getting the hang of things, but they have already purchased the game so little money to be made out of them.

Not an original 84er, but I probably wouldn't have backed the game (in beta, not kickstarter) if I hadn't expected to get 10k hours out of it. Not far off of that now...I'll probably make up the balance just tuning shadow tables in Odyssey.

Yes, the 'gameplay' I am most looking forward to at this point is rewriting shadow cascades in Notepad++ while flipping back and forth between screen shots, because Frontier can't be bothered to do it right on their own development time, but I digress.

 

[Dommarraa]

Another elderly snowflake whines about old good days.

Without the elderly snowflakes, you wouldnt have a game to play. So hush your mouth and show some respec boi.

 

[thelion]

Its a purposfull and fully thought out change in target audience.
The old 84ers wanted a game that took months or years to play, 5000 hours was just getting the hang of things, but they have already purchased the game so little money to be made out of them.
Now its focused on the 10-100 hours and move on to the next game demographic - Not disparaging those players, it seems the norm and its where the money's at, but they want different things from a game, so have been given it.

Damn your eyes, your kidneys and your spleen Cmdr. You are very jolly on the spot, what what?

You seem to have grasped the very fabric of time itself?

Tatty bye old bean

 

[Stealthie]

Some of the suggestions I've seen in this thread make no game sense. I've spent how many hours gathering mats, flying to engineers getting my ship GTG, and when I make a mistake against an Interceptor - I lose my engineered stuff? Want to raise the rebuy sure, but that and other suggestions in here means I need to be a masochist to enjoy the game.

If it was up to me I'd set it up so rebuy starts off at, say, 30% of a ship's value, decreases by 5% per week to a minimum of, say, 5% as long as you don't get exploded and I'd have it increase by 10%, to a maximum of 100%, every time you get exploded.
That way it'd, ultimately, be more punitive for players who do stupid stuff but it'd also give players a chance to decide how much risk they're willing to take and be rewarded for mitigating risk.
Also, I'd set it up so that if you were doing certain "officially sanctioned" things, the rebuy would be covered by whoever hired you.
So, for example, if you took on a mission to battle 'goids or pirates, your rebuy wouldn't be increased if you get exploded during the mission.

Also, I'd be tempted to implement something whereby there was no rebuy at all for outlaws with a substantial bounty.
The idea would be to encourage outlaws to fly unengineered ships in order to avoid the loss of engineered modules.

 

[Stealthie]

I'm surprised they didn't raise the cost of FCs due to some of the game instabilities that have arisen.

Thing is, if they were going to nerf earnings significantly, to restore more progression, they'd probably need to reduce the cost of FCs to ensure anybody could afford to buy one in future.

Broadly speaking, I'd put earnings back to where they were in, say, 2015, I'd make an FC cost Cr2bn but then I'd increase the running-costs, and the cost of Tritium, by at least 5x.
What I'd then do is, as I said, create FC-specific content which'd allow FC owners to earn enough to run their FC's but which a "normal" player couldn't take advantage of to earn squillions of credits easily.

 

[Winterwalker]

Generally when people talk about this subject we DO usually talk about earnings first but what if rebuy costs were multiplied by a factor .. of 20 .. instead?

You'd still be able to progress, as fast as now, relatively quickly, follow the road to riches, good luck to you. But if rebuy costs were really punitive, the game might win back the "balance of progression"?

I feel it's not inherently a bad thing to make credits fast. It's inflation (how rich were you in 1984 with 10 million credits?). But if there's a good Ladder then probably the Snakes should be slippery-er?

It also has the advantage of being a single lever. You could add docking fees, fines in the millions but even that would be simpler than changing a whole list of commodity and mission prices on the earnings side.

 

[Maximillian Forrest]

When I first played this game I recall spending days shooting and trading to earn enough for a Cobra III, then if I did a few missions I could maybe earn enough to upgrade the thrusters or lasers a little bit at a time, eeking out a profit, gleaning a little money here and there to upgrade the ship and keep a little back for trading. There was a real sense of "ducking and diving" and being on a knife-edge.

NOW. Well, I've reset my save and started again because I got bored. I've got a Imperial and either I'm a much better commander, or payouts are just ludicrous. I literally get enough for a/b grade a module for every mission board mission. I earn enough for a Hauler or Adder from many single courier missions, which begs the question why the company didn't just buy a damned ship and take it there themselves! - then there's combat. I - just - assist in taking down a minor league criminal and I get rewarded with enough money to buy a new ship. 20 minutes in a Nav beacon and I "earned" a several hundred thousand. It's like Dog the bounty hunter taking down some guy who didn't pay off his $100 credit card debt, and being rewarded with a new Corvette.

I know why it's been done, but seriously.....

That is because we live in a world where everyone not only wants everything yesterday, they want it without effort. Hence we see the developers feel they need to bend things to the point that you can have virtually everything the game has to offer without any kind of “grind”……..which itself is like using a swearing word which will incur lots of abuse.