Any Improvements on Engineering / Combat Balance?

[CMDR Egmont]

My balance recommendations:

-Buff Thermal Conduit! 60% more damage is not enough.
-Overheating should improve module integrity.
-Dumbfire velocity should be 200 m/s.
-Packhounds should damage modules through shields.
-Nerf Asp Scout.
-Increase likelihood of shadow rams.
-Canopy integrity should be reduced 50%.
-Only NPC contacts should be visible in supercruise.
-Nerf Oversized experimental from 3% to .9%.
-Reduce Cannon ammo and Multicannon ammo 50%.
-Increase mine arming time to 1 minute.
-Make Point Defense 100% useless against Packhounds.

 

[Danieros]

No, it has been completely untouched.

And from their most recent Odyssey Q&A regarding ship rebalancing, it doesn't seem like Frontier thinks rebalancing is needed - "Ship combat and SRV combat is in a healthy place right now". That might have been in the context of ships vs SRVs vs foot players, though. I wonder how a SRV can possibly be balanced without any engineering (confirmed to be no engineering for SRVs in Odyssey).

 

[SirTheo]

No, it has been completely untouched.

And from their most recent Odyssey Q&A regarding ship rebalancing, it doesn't seem like Frontier thinks rebalancing is needed - "Ship combat and SRV combat is in a healthy place right now". That might have been in the context of ships vs SRVs vs foot players, though. I wonder how a SRV can possibly be balanced without any engineering (confirmed to be no engineering for SRVs in Odyssey).

Considering ground defense cannons can rip up a ship too close (and unaimed fire not landing ANY damage), and and SRV seems to be about as powerful, I'd say that's balanced against the ship OP-ness they've implemented.

So, hull tanking is really only useful for bug hunting now?

Should I change my Chieftain from a hybrid tank to mostly shield tank? Swap my hull reinforcements to SCBs?

 

[Muetdhiver]

Didn't they fix the heavy duty bug on shield boosters which basically added the percentage improvement to the base booster percentage multiplier instead of applying the percentage multiplier to base boost? I thought someone in the comment thread of Yamik's video on that ("Only choice" utility video from 11 months ago) said it finally got fixed.

Or are engineered boosters still game-breakingly OP?

It indeed has been changed, but you still get +74% shields a pop. What it does is make for superb 0E G5 heavy duty boosters.
+50% shields for 2T using 0.25MW

In short, it's still pretty , but at least my iCourrier got a new toy to use in the outfitting game.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

No, it has been completely untouched.

And from their most recent Odyssey Q&A regarding ship rebalancing, it doesn't seem like Frontier thinks rebalancing is needed - "Ship combat and SRV combat is in a healthy place right now". That might have been in the context of ships vs SRVs vs foot players, though. I wonder how a SRV can possibly be balanced without any engineering (confirmed to be no engineering for SRVs in Odyssey).

I wouldn't call the toilet a healthy place but FD is full of it when they are about to sell something to you. Engineers wasn't overpowered gear either. Only mild updates. Sounded almost just like cosmetics.

 

[Danieros]

I wouldn't call the toilet a healthy place but FD is full of it when they are about to sell something to you. Engineers wasn't overpowered gear either. Only mild updates. Sounded almost just like cosmetics.

Oh you can be quite sure I don't agree with FD on it not needing adjustments. It's just that Frontier doesn't do much rebalancing, it's mostly a release something and then move on schedule.. I got quite happy with them finally doing something about the credits, at least - though it's been left in an incomplete state for a month so far.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Oh, and by the way: We still can't land on the moon. Just mentioned that in another thread. I've been waiting all the time to visit a stunning, atmospheric moon. Instead we got FDev bimbling around with features that literally no one ever asked for like an out of whack looter-shooter mechanic, a transfer system a majority agreed should take some time when used, but then we found out it wouldnt only cost time to wait for the ship to arrive - it would also cost ludicrous amounts of credits which FDev conviniently kept quiet about when conducting their faked vote on the matter. And this was when credits weren't easy to come by.
For the mortals I mean. Not the ones who always went to the same spot to grind. Real players like you and me.

Anyway, the moon - but let me tell you of the other thing noone asked for. I mean we DID ask for external cam. Imagine the fuss that caused. As if ED was a 3rd P shooter where you can peek around corners. Hey, have you ever really used cover in ED ship combat? Me neither. Asteroids are really rare in space. So out of the blue we get external cam. But you can't just hit a button and swivel you mouse - no you have to visit college course for advanced UI now, because FDEV decided to reinvent the wheel for a bloody external cam. Which I've used since the 80ies.

So the moon. It's not like I'm DD purist. I don't even care what's in there. But a DLC about rocky planets I really expected the most famous one to be featured.
And that's about it. Never cared for the lore much. Or story. Haven't ever played any Elite for that. I'd turn to an RPG, then. But that's just me.

 

[scadh]

Engineers aren't designed for fun - they are designed for maximum progress stall with unfun mechanics and ridiculous requirements.

You mean, except for the engineer unlocks where you have to collect 50 rare items from 8 systems away but you can only carry 10 at a time, of course. Obviously, THOSE were designed for loads of fun, right?

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

You mean, except for the engineer unlocks where you have to collect 50 rare items from 8 systems away but you can only carry 10 at a time, of course. Obviously, THOSE were designed for loads of fun, right?

ugh Flavian brandy runs much? Amazing the woman could engineer my ship, much less see straight, after I did all those trips for her!!

 

[Ydiss]

Good to see you, Frentox.

I'd have to say that, all facts considered, the current ship meta is unlikely to change again. At least not for years.

Now I actually think about that, it's pretty amazing really. I've played a lot of games and combat balance is usually one of those things that really does need constant care and attention. In all those games, the devs dedicate a lot of effort to keeping things balanced, focusing on tweaking various parts of the bigger picture. For the most part, it works fine.

Back when the game launched, fdev had that road ahead of them and, before engineers, there was some work to do sure. But now?

It just can't be "adjusted" any more. It's become gospel. It's literally locked under its own narrow yet convoluted, interconnected design. It's no longer possible to look at, say, rails and tweak them. It is so interdependent of so many other things and that's because of engineering. So the only way to adjust rails is to adjust rails and all the associated blue prints and all the shield/hull/HRP/booster variants and all the blue prints for those.

And I can't see them doing that. Definitely not a second time. Definitely not when it's going to demand some massive nerfs, too.

Said it before and I'll say it again... That's got to be the main reason I dislike the design of Engineers.

The Python was launched in an undeniably OP state. It took one patch and maybe three value changes to correct that balance. Imagine what's required to balance a specifically engineered python versus another ship now... At g1 through to G5, no less.

Just not happening.

It's a huge shame. And, back to my original point, a really uniquely bad situation for a dev to be in, in terms of the industry. But, some can't see that. So the common conclusion is "don't do it". And I mean, it's not going to change so that's probably the only solution for you, which is pretty sad.

 

[Morbad]

As per the title, have there been any significant changes to engineering and combat balance in the past year or so? Basically, since the big engineering rework when old modules were grandfathered in. If not, has FDev made clear any plans to address it in the semi-near future? Considering trying to get back into the game once Odyssey launches, but if ship combat and engineering balance is still being left as it was with no attempts to address the issues at all, I'm personally probably better off staying out.

The most recent balance change I can recall is the half- heat patch which has rendered thermal conduit the go to PA mod since it's entirely viable to keep a ship above 100% heat for a significant fraction of a fight now. I think that's well over a year old at this point though.

 

[zimms]

The CM's did mention they were 'looking at' the engineering 'grind' recently so Odyssey may have minor changes there...
As mentioned above, if you are asking about PvP & 'balance' currently no change (thankfully, the PvE players don't feature in the PvP agenda) although PvP was mentioned as another 'feature' being considered for future attention, so all may not be lost entirely

Who says that's just about PvP?

Even in PvE combat is a farce. If the most common advice is to intentionally use bad ships/loadouts to have interesting combat, surely that's a clear sign that things aren't exactly perfect.

 

[Morbad]

Who says that's just about PvP?

Even in PvE combat is a farce. If the most common advice is to intentionally use bad ships/loadouts to have interesting combat, surely that's a clear sign that things aren't exactly perfect.

Just close one eye and stop putting guns on your ships!

Turn your monitor off!

Wear your HMD upside down!

How is it Frontier's fault if you're the one who's trying? Just give up and then you'll see NPCs are fine!

But the KI Asp!

 

[Rat Catcher]

Who says that's just about PvP?

Even in PvE combat is a farce. If the most common advice is to intentionally use bad ships/loadouts to have interesting combat, surely that's a clear sign that things aren't exactly perfect.

So are you saying that the biggest noise made about 'balance' is made by PvE players? Curious...
Is there any 'perfect' game?

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Now I actually think about that, it's pretty amazing really. I've played a lot of games and combat balance is usually one of those things that really does need constant care and attention. In all those games, the devs dedicate a lot of effort to keeping things balanced, focusing on tweaking various parts of the bigger picture. For the most part, it works fine.

Hasn't been my experience. Other games it's an endless cycle of nerf/buff where the community is jerked back and forth. Fun tactics get made useless, players are pit against each other. Class warfare ensues.

All for the goal of "balance" which just results in sanitized and stagnant gameplay because all the force-multipliers get made useless in the end.

Can you imagine logging in and discovering your 1+ Billion credit Federal Corvette lost 30% of it's DPS and 30% of it's defense overnight? That's what other games/developers do and do all the time. It's nonsense.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Who says that's just about PvP?

Even in PvE combat is a farce. If the most common advice is to intentionally use bad ships/loadouts to have interesting combat, surely that's a clear sign that things aren't exactly perfect.

In most games one can get to a point where they are plowing through NPC's in relative short order.

It took me hundreds of hours of gameplay in Elite and a painful material grind and unlocking Engineer busywork to even get to the point where I'm comfortably confident in fighting higher level NPC's and killing them at a good clip. And I still have to go 5k LY to unlock Palin for my G5 dirties and OTHERS. So I'm not even done yet, ugh.

Think some have lost perspective. Compared to most games, the power of ships and Engineering is completely well balanced considering the amount of time and effort invested in combat upgrades.

 

[Rat Catcher]

In most games one can get to a point where they are plowing through NPC's in relative short order.

It took me hundreds of hours of gameplay in Elite and a painful material grind and unlocking Engineer busywork to even get to the point where I'm comfortably confident in fighting higher level NPC's and killing them at a good clip.

Think some have lost perspective. Compared to most games, the power of ships and Engineering is completely well balanced considering the amount of time and effort invested in combat upgrades.

But, once your skill exceeds by a large margin that of the AI, and if you are unable to build a ship that makes further encounters interesting 'because' - you too will come along and demand a nerf for everyone because you are better than the game... Give it time

It is similar to Skyrim & Fallout, you can make your character 'Godlike' then blame the game for being too easy...

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

But, once your skill exceeds by a large margin that of the AI, and if you are unable to build a ship that makes further encounters interesting 'because' - you too will come along and demand a nerf for everyone because you are better than the game... Give it time

It is similar to Skyrim & Fallout, you can make your character 'Godlike' then blame the game for being too easy...

I hear you but I would like to think I would ask for more challenging content to be released. Not an overall nerf that would make combat feel absolutely impossible for newer players or those who don't have every single Engineer up to G5.

Yeah lol I hear you about Skyrim. When I was a "big deal" in World of Warcraft I remember going back and soloing raid bosses that used to take literally 40 people struggling like crazy to kill!

 

[Morbad]

Other games it's an endless cycle of nerf/buff where the community is jerked back and forth.

That's this game.

Can you imagine logging in and discovering your 1+ Billion credit Federal Corvette lost 30% of it's DPS and 30% of it's defense overnight? That's what other games/developers do and do all the time. It's nonsense.

Also things that have happened in this game, multiple times.

Here is an example of a loadout I ran during the height of the "heat meta":

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tI5prDuvZw


A build like that wouldn't stand up to the cargo ships my CMDR now flies. Balance swung so much from 2.1 through 3.0 that most of the Engineered modules my CMDR has ever made have been sold back to the station as scrap because they were turned for loadouts that were rendered defunct.

Mechanisms have slowly settled into stagnation over the last few years, but stagnant and broken is little better than dynamically broken. The heat meta was completely asinine, but I'm not sure it was worse than what we have now.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I hear you but I would like to think I would ask for more challenging content to be released

And therein lies the rub...

At least in the RPG's I could be a level 60 Thief (I appear to have a penchant for the lawless characters) and expect to meet similar ranked adversaries in matchmaking..

Here the 'toughest' everyday NPC is going to be elite combat, challenging enough for 'the masses' but not so tough once the player has gained some skill. The toughest opponents are entirely 'opt-in' because the game is not purely combat focused and a portion of the players will have no desire to play at pew-pew if they are able to avoid it. I am probably at the skill level where NPC's are 'no problem' but manage to resist the urge to fly a 'godship' so keep some spice in the game for me - this, of course, is frowned upon by 'the community'.

There was a bug that made 'super NPC's' talked about (which was squashed with some alacrity) - but we have to assume the majority of the playerbase have just a passing interest in combat, which is why the game is as it is.

Your next likely step will be into PvP where challenge is unlimited, but, of course, options of what you fly are not - because 'META' - then you will likely join in with the cry for change as the 'META' is boring... Until the next one rears its head and becomes equally boring.