Any Improvements on Engineering / Combat Balance?

Why is the Federation (or anyone else for that matter) still fielding FASes that cost essentially the same (as configured) as an FDL that is broadly more effective and no less available?
Could it be something to do with the Core Dynamics CEO being the son of the 2nd-ranked Liberal politician? :) Wouldn't be the first power to prioritise nepotism over effectiveness and suffer for it in the long run.

Why the Independents aren't fielding FDLs against the FASes, on the other hand, there's no good explanation for.
 
Hey I'm 'that guy" and that wasn't my point or what I was saying at all.

And you know what - I'm starting to find your act here pretty stale and tiring to be completely frank. I'm sorry things in Elite didn't work out for you, I truly am.

Yes, you're that guy who wrote:

Nobody does this is real life, so I guess it's something weird about video games where we just cannot accept unfairness exists. There's not some old man out there saying his P-51 Mustang should be as "viable" in combat as an F-22 Raptor.

I understood you were wondering why games don't handle it like in RL where fairness isn't a thing. (Your words, not mine)
 
As per the title, have there been any significant changes to engineering and combat balance in the past year or so? Basically, since the big engineering rework when old modules were grandfathered in. If not, has FDev made clear any plans to address it in the semi-near future? Considering trying to get back into the game once Odyssey launches, but if ship combat and engineering balance is still being left as it was with no attempts to address the issues at all, I'm personally probably better off staying out.
No significant changes except that which Morbad mentioned re: heat bug.
Since ships can withstand more heat, not only has thermal conduit been the PA experimental of choice, but also silent running is used much more often. This of course causes everyone to equip emissive.

Another side effect of the heat bug is that more PvPers are using a 4 srb rail/ MC build FDL with prismatic shields and four boosters and only 2 heatsinks.

Sadly, srb hammers are still too hot even now. :(
 
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This hasn't changed right?
 
No significant changes except that which Morbad mentioned re: heat bug.
Since ships can withstand more heat, not only has thermal conduit been the PA experimental of choice, but also silent running is used much more often. This of course causes everyone to equip emissive.

Another side effect of the heat bug is that more PvPers are using a 4 srb rail/ MC build FDL with prismatic shields and four boosters and only 2 heatsinks.

Sadly, srb hammers are still too hot even now. :(

Tell me about it. I found out the hard way. Going to re-eng them with sturdy/super pen for only module sniping now. Going to use pacifiers and long range beams for main damage.
 
And therein lies the rub...

At least in the RPG's I could be a level 60 Thief (I appear to have a penchant for the lawless characters) and expect to meet similar ranked adversaries in matchmaking..

Here the 'toughest' everyday NPC is going to be elite combat, challenging enough for 'the masses' but not so tough once the player has gained some skill. The toughest opponents are entirely 'opt-in' because the game is not purely combat focused and a portion of the players will have no desire to play at pew-pew if they are able to avoid it. I am probably at the skill level where NPC's are 'no problem' but manage to resist the urge to fly a 'godship' so keep some spice in the game for me - this, of course, is frowned upon by 'the community'.

There was a bug that made 'super NPC's' talked about (which was squashed with some alacrity) - but we have to assume the majority of the playerbase have just a passing interest in combat, which is why the game is as it is.

Your next likely step will be into PvP where challenge is unlimited, but, of course, options of what you fly are not - because 'META' - then you will likely join in with the cry for change as the 'META' is boring... Until the next one rears its head and becomes equally boring.
What community frowns upon Vets opting to fly lesser ships? Oh, like a pool shark maybe?
 
So are you saying that the biggest noise made about 'balance' is made by PvE players? Curious...
Is there any 'perfect' game?

Nope, that's not what I'm saying.

Also, even if "perfection" can't be reached, surely there's room for improvement anyway.

In most games one can get to a point where they are plowing through NPC's in relative short order.

It took me hundreds of hours of gameplay in Elite and a painful material grind and unlocking Engineer busywork to even get to the point where I'm comfortably confident in fighting higher level NPC's and killing them at a good clip. And I still have to go 5k LY to unlock Palin for my G5 dirties and OTHERS. So I'm not even done yet, ugh.

Think some have lost perspective. Compared to most games, the power of ships and Engineering is completely well balanced considering the amount of time and effort invested in combat upgrades.

You say that as if that's a counterpoint to my opinion. An Engineered ship being easy mode and an unengineered one a death sentence are two sides of the same coin. These upgrades should have improved a ship's performance by let's say 10%, not 10000%. Some of these numbers are simply ridiculous.
 
You say that as if that's a counterpoint to my opinion. An Engineered ship being easy mode and an unengineered one a death sentence are two sides of the same coin. These upgrades should have improved a ship's performance by let's say 10%, not 10000%. Some of these numbers are simply ridiculous.

I'm with FDEV, this is in a good place right now. Stop trying to nerf people. If you feel Engineering is ridiculous, you can opt-out easy enough.

10%?? For all the collecting and traveling and rolling things a GILLION times over and over again to get to G5? Going to Colonia!? 10%? Please, that's SO not even worth the effort.
 
Nope, that's not what I'm saying.
So if it isn't PvE or PvP players asking for 'balance' who is it?

The contributors to the 'balance' discussions that have sprang up in recent times have been, in forum membership terms, a tiny minority - which must indicate that a huge majority either aren't fussed by, or see no overwhelming need for, whatever 'balance' is mooted by whoever is doing the suggestion at the time.

I'm not claiming the game is perfect, but it is the players themselves who choose imbalance, because - as in many games - they can, then the game / Developers are blamed for permitting it...
 
I'm with FDEV, this is in a good place right now. Stop trying to nerf people. If you feel Engineering is ridiculous, you can opt-out easy enough.

10%?? For all the collecting and traveling and rolling things a GILLION times over and over again to get to G5? Going to Colonia!? 10%? Please, that's SO not even worth the effort.

That was the problem. The amount of work Engineering took at release was ridiculous. Frontier knew that, that's why they added equally ridiculous benefits. At least they've dialed back the former.

And I'm not trying to nerf people. Sorry for stating my opinion but I'll continue to do so if I feel like it. Even if you think it's not worth as much as yours.
 
To be fair, many games prevent one from designing risk out of the equation.
A better choice would have been to say 'minimise risk'... Even the beefiest ship, against another similar in the hands of a skilled player is vulnerable.
I tend to discuss PvE as it is the style adopted by the majority according to Frontier - so should have made that clear.
 
That was the problem. The amount of work Engineering took at release was ridiculous. Frontier knew that, that's why they added equally ridiculous benefits. At least they've dialed back the former.

And I'm not trying to nerf people. Sorry for stating my opinion but I'll continue to do so if I feel like it. Even if you think it's not worth as much as yours.

I'm fine with your opinion, I'm just disagreeing. But be clear, you ARE trying to nerf basically every single player in the game. Can you give me back the hours and hours of my life I spent on Engineering so far? Unless you can, you are trying to negatively impact my enjoyment of Elite.....
 
Sounds a reasonable assumption...
Those who can't admit that it is the player who designs risk completely out of the equation, then complains that everything is easy 🤷‍♂️
To be fair, many games prevent one from designing risk out of the equation.
I'm with FDEV, this is in a good place right now. Stop trying to nerf people. If you feel Engineering is ridiculous, you can opt-out easy enough.

10%?? For all the collecting and traveling and rolling things a GILLION times over and over again to get to G5? Going to Colonia!? 10%? Please, that's SO not even worth the effort.
Nerf is not Always a bad Thing. And although the opt-out Option seems Like a good idea, It doesn't make sense with human psychology. Feels worse to bypass something you could get than to never have been presented the option.
 
It'd be nice if instances would be scalable to the average of the PCs spawning into it. That way, a hyper over-engineered and elite ranked player would face much tougher opponents in a haz rez than a mostly harmless would, but the level of difficulty above the PC would be similar. Same with other encounters. If multiple pcs are in an instance, the npc level could be at a weighted average to be balanced. That way new commanders wouldn't get ganked too hard and elite over engineered wouldn't be super disappointed at how easy it is.

Just a suggestion.
 
As per the title, have there been any significant changes to engineering and combat balance in the past year or so? Basically, since the big engineering rework when old modules were grandfathered in. If not, has FDev made clear any plans to address it in the semi-near future? Considering trying to get back into the game once Odyssey launches, but if ship combat and engineering balance is still being left as it was with no attempts to address the issues at all, I'm personally probably better off staying out.

Are you referring to PVP, PVE, or both?

Also genuine question... can you link to any suggestions on how combat could be better balanced, preferably also with details of how it's unbalanced right now?
 
What a wonderful name to read again.

Eeyy, thanks. Always fun to see familiar faces.

...they officially tsated that they believe (ship) combat is in a healthy state right now (Odyssey QnA).

Wow. I legitimately physically felt that. Oof. They've certainy implied that's the case, but them outright saying it is rough. I'm glad I'm not as emotionally invested in the game right now as I used to be, because that would be extremely depressing to read. So I guess they still haven't figured out that combat balance isn't "just a PvP problem", and in fact has a huge impact on every part of the game that touches combat, PvE included. Ugh... That's bleak. Thanks for the heads up, though. I guess I'll just continue to wait, and hope they pull their heads out of the sand.

...put it at the same risk Hawken was facing in 2014 (you should remember this game)...

Of course I remember Hawken! That was some of my favorite gaming of all time. On that note, there's an upcoming mech game called Galahad 3093 that's different than Hawken, but has some similar vibes. Might want to take a look!
 
Are you referring to PVP, PVE, or both?

Also genuine question... can you link to any suggestions on how combat could be better balanced, preferably also with details of how it's unbalanced right now?

Sure, here's a couple problems with combat. Starting with the Hulltank VS Shieldtank Problem (and weapon loadouts to counter them).

Hulltanks are hard-countered by most weapons:

• Multicannons, which are low power/distro draw, long range, good falloff weapons that can be equipped with corrosive and shred through hull
• Missiles and its derivatives (seekers, packhounds) dealing bonus damage to hull + dealing significant module damage, disabling numerous components
• Plasma and rams, both dealing absolute damage, which are partially resisted by shields but not by hull. These are amongst the highest damage options in the game.
• Fragment Cannons, which can be equipped with corrosive and are statistically the highest DPS weapon in the entire game
• Railguns, which can accurately and somewhat easily disable any component of an unshielded ship all the way up to 6km range.

Shieldtanks, on the other hand, are countered by:

• Lasers, which have poor falloff (500~600m compared to MC's 2 kilometers), noticeable power draw and temperature gain. Best used with TC, which damages your own ship over time
• Incendiary MCs/Frags
• FC Railguns (during the short period of a cellbank)
• A god damn Thargoid

The lack of a corrosive equivalent, as well as the lack of module damage to a shielded target, just adds to this.

Overall, shield tanks are far superior to hull tanks in almost every way (the main exception being Thargoids). They are countered by less equipment, protect your modules better, and any ship trying to have an "anti-shield" loadout will have to make difficult compromises. Meanwhile, you can whip up almost anything that will wreck a hulltank, loadout wise. Including anti-shield equipment, more often than not!

Another problem is the FDL (praise). A very fun, high skill ceiling ship, that unfortunately is not handicapped in any way. Every other combat ship in the game has a flaw of some sort: Mamba has poor convergence, Krait has poor defenses and mediocre turning, Chief/Chally have exposed thrusters, FAS/FGS are hulltanks, all of the big ships are clumsy, easy to hit targets... then the FDL just slides in, no flaws. Good convergence, top tier maneuvering, thicc shields, impressive firepower, no heat problem, no nothing. Sure, it's only good for combat, but the same can be said about the Alliance/Federal series as well as the Mamba. Why is it so good? What were they thinking? It's too late now, that's for sure; If they nerf the FDL, the backlash will be grisly.

There's plenty of other problems. Shock Cannons, Packhounds and a myriad of other fun weapons, have serious ammo issues making them annoying to deal with. Some engineering blueprints have no drawbacks at all (Efficient PAs, Overcharged MCs) and therefore make other choices worse. The more you look into combat, the more you'll see that the playing field isn't fair.

Is all of this a big deal enough to quit the game over? Does it ruin my fun and enjoyment? No. Not to me, at least. I love this game. But can Frontier improve this, and therefore make the game grow overall? Oh yes, absolutely. These problems can be fixed and the game will improve.

But that's not everything Frontier has to work on. Realistic nebulas, event horizon shadows & accretion disks, more landable planets, better piracy system, better crime & punishment, better ways to control player-made factions, Powerplay needs a serious revision as well. Plus all the extra art stuff, cosmetics, ship interiors, etc... You can ask ten players what they think Frontier should focus on next, and you'll get ten different answers.
 
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