Potential fix for the overpowered heal beams.

[Morbad]

This friendly bout is the only time I've seen heal beams used outside of PvE (where they aren't even remotely necessary), or station ganks:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcyw_n15Nao

On which button is my taunt?

Enter, or whatever takes you to local chat. Let's you dump the interdictor for another HRP and makes the interdiction automatically successful because all you have to do is submit.

So if the mere healing beam already troubles you, then the ground suits will probably drive you crazy.

Depends on TTKs, if you can be brought back from the 'dead' by it, and what limits there are on it's use.

It's problematic between ships because it's unlimited, at will, and can restore shields faster than most attacks can bring them down. It's why stations have reverberating cascade effects on their weapons. A pair of efficient SRB beam lasers on a pair of corvettes with right shield resistance setup (turn off your thermal resistance boosters) can restore each others shields at a rate of upwards of 100MW (each), which is faster than even a rapid charge 8A SCB, with no limit to duration (a corvette with an 8A charge enhanced super conduit distributor and an armored PP can fire two huge efficient beams indefinitely, without depleting the capacitor or overheating) and no ability to be interrupted outside of ramming, a lot of force shells, interposing other ships, or destroying one of the pair outright (and only the last one is more than a momentary interruption).

The subtext seems to be that gankees can protect themselves using them. But I doubt that happens much if at all.

It's completely impractical.

If you've got enough shielding for heal beams to be worth while, you have way too much shielding to be ganked before you can leave. And since you can't use them on yourself, the delay to bring them to bear on a wing member is usually going to be longer than it would take that wing member to jump out.

 

[Sylow]

This friendly bout is the only time I've seen heal beams used outside of PvE (where they aren't even remotely necessary), or station ganks:

Which tells me that the problem might not be as big as some people paint it to be.

I mean, i openly admit that i am a PvE player, and i see absolutely no issue in the healing beams. I didn't participate in PvP since engineers came around, so i simply accept the expertise of the PvP players. But if one of the (as far as i know) most experienced PvP players around now also states that healing beams are basically not used in a PvP environment, i really don't see the point of nerfing them.

It suddenly feels like trying to merely out of spite break something which allow me to support my friends with less playtime here. (Who might indeed soon migrate to a FLD or Mamba, albeit completely non-engineered. )

Enter, or whatever takes you to local chat. Let's you dump the interdictor for another HRP and makes the interdiction automatically successful because all you have to do is submit.

You kind of took this out of context there. It was all about having the tank/dd/heal triangle here, which at least according to my experience is mostly a PvE tool. (Yes, for example Warhammer Onlines tanks actually had PvP use, but it was not the taunt but the guard mechanic and their big arsenal of crowd control tools, which made them worthwile. )

Depends on TTKs, if you can be brought back from the 'dead' by it, and what limits there are on it's use.

Time will tell. My statement was not that Odyssey will be terrible or that it will be a problem. Merely that based on the limited info we have (the description of different suits functions), it's much closer to the tank/dd/heal trinity than our current ship based combat.

I personally think that i'll be able to live with that, but i also have to admit that i care very little for ground legs. I play this game for flying starships. If i want to play a shooter, there are good ones out there and i can actually afford to buy and play those, so i don't have to ask for them to be built into a game i already own...

Anyway, my statement you answered really only made sense in the context is was given. Taking it out of context and then commenting it all by itself, it indeed seems a bit off.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I mean, i openly admit that i am a PvE player, and i see absolutely no issue in the healing beams.

They can be seen as an optional way to mitigate risk/danger in a way that doesn't really affect anyone else, much in the way modes could be seen. The problem with the game, as so often, is the side case that becomes a problem in itself and follows from deficiency in overall design. Both heal beams and modes can be used in ways that adversely affect other players, with impunity. If none of these kinds of imbalances are ever addressed, it can start to feel like you have a broken game. The credit rebalance they did, apart from creating new odd imbalances, was actually some way down a lot of peoples' list of wants.

But lets assume they stay as they are - presumably you'd have no problem with NPCs using them against you? I'm kind of ribbing you, but actually, why on earth don't they, when they often get to use other engineered weapons? It seems a significant oversight. For that matter, system security could also have them to assist CMDRs against pirate attacks. Just as wings of pirates might get to use them too.

 

[Morbad]

Which tells me that the problem might not be as big as some people paint it to be.

It's not a problem until people use it.

However, I doubt anyone other than Frontier is in a position to see most of it's use cases.

I mean, i openly admit that i am a PvE player, and i see absolutely no issue in the healing beams.

As long as NPCs don't have access to it, I'd consider it a pretty big issue from a PvE perspective. It's annoying to counter as a CMDR; it's impossible for NPCs to counter.

It suddenly feels like trying to merely out of spite break something which allow me to support my friends with less playtime here. (Who might indeed soon migrate to a FLD or Mamba, albeit completely non-engineered. )

The complaints are neither new, nor out of spite.

I would certainly argue that CMDRs being invincible in PvE is problematic enough when it can be done with a mild degree of personal assets and experience. Being able to confer that upon others of zero experience (or bots or barely attended alt accounts) is that much more of a contextless force multiplier and thus that much more disruptive.

On a personal level, I also consider most in-combat 'healing' to be poor gameplay that undermines the planning and foresight that should be required to manage attrition.

You kind of took this out of context there. It was all about having the tank/dd/heal triangle here, which at least according to my experience is mostly a PvE tool. (Yes, for example Warhammer Onlines tanks actually had PvP use, but it was not the taunt but the guard mechanic and their big arsenal of crowd control tools, which made them worthwile. )

All tactical options that would be depicted by arbitrary fixed function abilities in some more heavily abstracted games are present in this one through tactical piloting and, to a distinctly lesser degree, loadout selection (and this was the case even prior to Engineers). This is a vastly better situation than having 'classes', or other arbitrary role limitations enforced by gizmo mechanisms (and one of my main issues with Engineering).

All that's required to "taunt" an NPC is do sufficient damage to it, while crowd control against NPC ships is as simple as being able to outpace them. They can be herded around like sheep. It's a little more complex in PvP, as players aren't beholden to if-then scripts, but the same principles generally apply, with a bit more organicity.

Anyway, I've never been a fan of the "tank/dd/heal trinity", irrespective of game or genre.

 

[Bigmaec]

I didn't do the math, but wouldn't it be enough restrict regeneration sequence from being applied to efficient and lightweight blueprints enough to
counter most healy shenanigans? The distributor drain would prevent overly excessive use then...

 

[Sylow]

But lets assume they stay as they are - presumably you'd have no problem with NPCs using them against you? I'm kind of ribbing you, but actually, why on earth don't they, when they often get to use other engineered weapons? It seems a significant oversight. For that matter, system security could also have them to assist CMDRs against pirate attacks. Just as wings of pirates might get to use them too.

As NPCs never used them against me, i honestly can't say how bad it would be. But my first reaction would merely be to switch target and go for the one using the healing beam.

So yes, i would indeed welcome to see NPCs using it, even if it's right now mostly out of curiosity on how that would turn out. It would also allow me to give better feedback on it. Right now my PvE point of view is:

• It is useful if applied correctly.
• It requires me to pay attention to my group (not only their shield status on top, but also their position) so i can react on time when something goes wrong. So it certainly is another layer of activity.
• My friends still managed to loose several ships. Their non-engineered ships have vulneable enough shields to sometimes loose them in a shorter time than i was able to react.

Only would i stick to just follow my friends and do nothing else than heal them, it could probably turn into some kind of invulnerablity. (I never tried. I rather prefer to also be useful all of the time. ) But hey, that would also result in me not dealing damage any more, so it effectively would take me out of the fight.

Thus having NPCs also using it would actually be very interesting. I could then give feedback from either side of the effect and it would probably result in some balancing. But i think that it's not even the healing beam itself, which would need the balancing, but the ominpresent and badly overpowered defense stacking.

As long as NPCs don't have access to it, I'd consider it a pretty big issue from a PvE perspective. It's annoying to counter as a CMDR; it's impossible for NPCs to counter.

Might be my sarcastic self, but i yet have to see an NPC complain about it, though. Also, based on my experience: it's not really that powerful and unbalanced when assisting my friends in their still not engineered ships.

Of course, when used on a fully engineered ship, that quickly can turn into a different thing. But hey, i wonder if anybody already noticed, but i actually think that the game has a serious issue with defense stacking and how insanely powerful that can be. Maybe, just maybe, that could be the elephant in the room?

The complaints are neither new, nor out of spite.

That they are not new is true. But now, that a PvP expert like you even explains on how little they actually are being used, i really wonder: either you were telling nonsense when saying that, or the problem is far smaller than many people paint it to be.

On a personal level, I also consider most in-combat 'healing' to be poor gameplay that undermines the planning and foresight that should be required to manage attrition.

This is a very personal thing. My question would then be if you also then dislike healers in MMOs, but you already answer that later:

Anyway, I've never been a fan of the "tank/dd/heal trinity", irrespective of game or genre.

Which indeed is a matter of taste. But inside the game world, just like "magic" and "miracles" work in MMOs, the same can be said for technology in a SF game. Healing beams have some tech-babble around it, that it would sychronize with the shield and thus put power into it instead of damaging it, yadda, yadda... it's a game mechanic and in my eyes does add something to the game. (See above. )

If it's balanced is a whole different question and, see early in the thread, i also would accept some mechanics to counter it. But the later part here, which very much feels like "i don't like it, so it has to be killed by fire" is just something i can't agree with. I consider it a useful mechanic by itself. For my use cases, it doesn't seem that badly out of whack.

Btw... if you dislike all the healing, what do you think of self-healing? You also hate that and want to get rid of it? For i think i saw you using SCBs in your videos. That's some ugly and mean self-healing you do there, you better get rid of that!

All tactical options that would be depicted by arbitrary fixed function abilities in some more heavily abstracted games are present in this one through tactical piloting and, to a distinctly lesser degree, loadout selection (and this was the case even prior to Engineers). This is a vastly better situation than having 'classes', or other arbitrary role limitations enforced by gizmo mechanisms (and one of my main issues with Engineering).

Except that we don't classes here on our ships. Merely sizes. (Yet, though. The names and descriptions of the suits we get in Odyssey have a very strong touch of class and and roles. ) So again, it would seem to me that due to you disliking healing, you blow things out of proportion here.

Mind you, i can easily believe that the healing beams feel very much overpowered on fully engineered ships, with the godlike engineered shields. But for anybody trying to make that point, my mere answer is that the root cause here is not the healing beam. And i am still convinced that hitting a lot of engineering blueprints with the nerf hammer would be a massive improvement. But i am not convinced that merely hitting this one effect, which even an experienced PvP (yes, you, Morbad) player states that it's rarely ever being used, would address a real problem.

 

[Morbad]

As NPCs never used them against me, i honestly can't say how bad it would be. But my first reaction would merely be to switch target and go for the one using the healing beam.

I'm saying it's worse that NPCs don't have them, because it's unbalanced.

NPCs should also use it rationally. If the one healing takes fire, then it goes evasive while the other becomes aggressive. Other NPCs of that faction with heal beams should also come to assist. If I can think of ways to use it, NPCs should already be doing it.

Only would i stick to just follow my friends and do nothing else than heal them, it could probably turn into some kind of invulnerablity. (I never tried. I rather prefer to also be useful all of the time. ) But hey, that would also result in me not dealing damage any more, so it effectively would take me out of the fight.

That's a tactical issue that is easily solved.

I could put three heal beam turrets on my standard corvette setup, and switch between wing targets, as necissary, while firing at NPCs with my four fixed weapons, for example.

Maybe, just maybe, that could be the elephant in the room?

Defensive inflation is a problem, both in and of itself, and in synergy with many other mechanisms.

However, resolving it wouldn't address the issues I have with various aspects of heal beams, and heal beams themselves have lead to the adoption of other problematic mechanisms.

The elephant in the room is a web of inflationary balance changes going back to before the game was released and balooning out of control with the introduction of Engineering. Heal beams are one small part of that, but a part of that none the less.

But now, that a PvP expert like you even explains on how little they actually are being used, i really wonder: either you were telling nonsense when saying that, or the problem is far smaller than many people paint it to be.

Neither.

But inside the game world, just like "magic" and "miracles" work in MMOs, the same can be said for technology in a SF game. Healing beams have some tech-babble around it, that it would sychronize with the shield and thus put power into it instead of damaging it, yadda, yadda... it's a game mechanic and in my eyes does add something to the game. (See above. )

The existence of magic does not justify a lack of internal consistency.

Heal beams, as they are depicted, don't make any sense in the context of the game. Why are they not the de fact method for charging shields? Why are shield recharge rates so low if a simple laser modification can charge them vastly more rapidly, efficiently, and at range? What keeps them from working on one's own ship? Why don't all winged NPCs carry them? There is clearly no supply constraint on obtaining them, so why haven't the major powers made them standard issue?

These are logical holes I wouldn't tolerate in a high-fantasy tabletop game. Nothing exists in a vacuum and if the implications of any given mechanism or tool aren't well considered, the whole depiction suffers.

I consider it a useful mechanic by itself.

If wasn't useful it couldn't be a problem.

Btw... if you dislike all the healing, what do you think of self-healing? You also hate that and want to get rid of it? For i think i saw you using SCBs in your videos. That's some ugly and mean self-healing you do there, you better get rid of that!

I never said I wouldn't use healing beams. I said they shouldn't exist, or should, at the very least, be toned down.

As long as a mechanism exists and I feel I can use it without violating the rules or the spirit behind those rules, I will have my CMDR utilize them in accordance with his character and means. I am not going to self-handicap in a multiplayer game. I may not like all the rules, but I will play by them, and I will use them.

I don't like Engineering either, and if I could, I'd strip all mention of it from the game. My CMDR still has ~6k G5 rolls and my default assumption is of a fully/optimally Engineered component, because their very existence makes them virtually mandatory.

 

[DemiserofD]

The existence of magic does not justify a lack of internal consistency.

Heal beams, as they are depicted, don't make any sense in the context of the game. Why are they not the de fact method for charging shields? Why are shield recharge rates so low if a simple laser modification can charge them vastly more rapidly, efficiently, and at range? What keeps them from working on one's own ship? Why don't all winged NPCs carry them? There is clearly no supply constraint on obtaining them, so why haven't the major powers made them standard issue?

These are logical holes I wouldn't tolerate in a high-fantasy tabletop game. Nothing exists in a vacuum and if the implications of any given mechanism or tool aren't well considered, the whole depiction suffers.

I think these are the sorts of things that fall under the class of 'acceptable breaks from reality'. They're game mechanics rather than canonical mechanics of the universe.

Basically, for players to consider certain things worth using, they need to be far more powerful than they could realistically be, to the point everyone would be using them. IE, in reality it might be worth using a missile launcher that only has 8 missiles in it if it means you kill a single enemy more rapidly, because killing even one enemy is a big deal. But in a game, you need to kill dozens or hundreds of enemies, so a missile launcher with only 8 missiles is rarely if ever worth using.