Ships Advice on engineering my Chieftain

[Homerzilla]

GSB = Guardian Shield Booster? if yes I dont really see the use in that tbh. If you are running a bi-weave setup the number to look at is the shield regen time, the shorter the better imho. If you want huge shields go prismatics/ a-rated. My chieftain only has 650 shields, but regenerates those in 1:28 minutes. I rarely lose even those 'small' shields, and if I do, they are back up in the blink of an eye. I think the resistances are very important in that as well.
The more raw shield MJ the higher the regeneration time, which ultimately defeats the purpose of using bi-weaves.

See above. I have 2 MRP and 4 HRP in my chieftain atm. Though ideally you want 3, which leaves you at 94% module protection instead of 84%. Afaik external modules only get half of the protection from the MRP, which is especially relevant on the chieftain because of those huge exposed thrusters. Think I will adjust my build a bit, to be able to fit a 3rd.

Sure it is also a matter of preference, if you plan around never losing your shields in the first place, than GSB might be ok to use. But then you would be better off in a shield tank FDL anyway.
My chieftain can lose its shields and take a lot of incoming fire with only miniscule module damage until the shields are back up. The MRP soak up most the damage.

Lol I never lost shields ! I found a bad idea to get worried about module dam - that mind you are counting on loosing shields ! With my build I am strong enough to take a lot of punishment without loosing shields AND the regen time for 1-2 rings is still under 1-3 minutes ! And I will never swap a Cheffy agility for the one of a FDL - who fly like a brick next to Chieffy...
Usually I feel enough confident to take 3-6 NPC.s at once in Resh - and if things get ugly you always can boost your way out, chaffing your escape - not all NPC you fight will chase you, so always you can stop and fight them/kill them one by one....
Good shields AND great agility are a deadly mix.

 

[fishevi]

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Here's nice g3 pve build someone gave me some time ago, it works.
To make it even more pve friendly(read:collecting mats in HazRes, etc.) put cargo rack instead of 5d mrp and collector limpet instead of interdictor.

 

[Homerzilla]

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A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

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Here's nice g3 pve build someone gave me some time ago, it works.
To make it even more pve friendly(read:collecting mats in HazRes, etc.) put cargo rack instead of 5d mrp and collector limpet instead of interdictor.

I will say more efficient, not just more friendly ! When you do 100 kills or +, in a ResH, after 1 h, is a shame to ignore all those juicy materials floating there....

 

[moolas]

GSB = Guardian Shield Booster? if yes I dont really see the use in that tbh. If you are running a bi-weave setup the number to look at is the shield regen time, the shorter the better imho. If you want huge shields go prismatics/ a-rated. My chieftain only has 650 shields, but regenerates those in 1:28 minutes. I rarely lose even those 'small' shields, and if I do, they are back up in the blink of an eye. I think the resistances are very important in that as well.
The more raw shield MJ the higher the regeneration time, which ultimately defeats the purpose of using bi-weaves.

See above. I have 2 MRP and 4 HRP in my chieftain atm. Though ideally you want 3, which leaves you at 94% module protection instead of 84%. Afaik external modules only get half of the protection from the MRP, which is especially relevant on the chieftain because of those huge exposed thrusters. Think I will adjust my build a bit, to be able to fit a 3rd.

Sure it is also a matter of preference, if you plan around never losing your shields in the first place, than GSB might be ok to use. But then you would be better off in a shield tank FDL anyway.
My chieftain can lose its shields and take a lot of incoming fire with only miniscule module damage until the shields are back up. The MRP soak up most the damage.

The % doesn't really stack from my experience. The largest MRP will always take the hits and first, then goes to the smaller one once the largest MRP is dead. For example, I have a 5D and 2D MRP. During tough fights such as solo wing missions or pvp, I try to use AFMU to keep the 5D MRP alive to prolong module protections.

 

[Kayvan]

Re small vs large shields -- intuitively I'd say that a bigger shield is always better -- if you have enough shield points that it doesn't break, you don't need to recover it so you're back in the fight more quickly.

However, running some comparisons with Coriolis I think I get what Ander is getting at -- Recovery (with 4 pips to Shields) is a lot faster than Recharge, so if you get the timing right, you may be back to full shields faster.
Let's run the numbers:
So if I understand correctly, Recovery restores 50% of your total shields.

A Bi-Weave with Fast Charge, 650MJ Absolute strength and 4 pips to SYS will recover a broken shield in 1:05, and regenerate from 50 to 100% in about 1:28 (3.7/s). So your total time from broken to full is 153 seconds (during which you mustn't take any damage).
But if with the very same shield you only lose 649 shield points and wait for regeneration, it will take ~177 to fully recharge. Damage you take during recovery time goes to Hull but doesn't delay shield recovery.

If you have 1300 shield and lose 650 (i.e. 50%), recharging takes the same 177 seconds.

So, well, in a best case scenario with perfect timing, the smaller shield can save you some 25 seconds per cycle.
But in practice, things rarely go according to plan and timing usually isn't perfect. You may be hot on the tail of a tough opponent by the time you lost 650 shields, and if you break off now you give him a chance to recover or escape, and if you stay you take more damage from his allies. So I still think that stronger shields are better 95% of the time.

Edit:
So what Shield mods do you guys use -- I guess it basically comes down to the choice, Reinforced, or Thermal Resistant? ^^

 

[Homerzilla]

Re small vs large shields -- intuitively I'd say that a bigger shield is always better -- if you have enough shield points that it doesn't break, you don't need to recover it so you're back in the fight more quickly.

However, running some comparisons with Coriolis I think I get what Ander is getting at -- Recovery (with 4 pips to Shields) is a lot faster than Recharge, so if you get the timing right, you may be back to full shields faster.
Let's run the numbers:
So if I understand correctly, Recovery restores 50% of your total shields.

A Bi-Weave with Fast Charge, 650MJ Absolute strength and 4 pips to SYS will recover a broken shield in 1:05, and regenerate from 50 to 100% in about 1:28 (3.7/s). So your total time from broken to full is 153 seconds (during which you mustn't take any damage).
But if with the very same shield you only lose 649 shield points and wait for regeneration, it will take ~177 to fully recharge. Damage you take during recovery time goes to Hull but doesn't delay shield recovery.

If you have 1300 shield and lose 650 (i.e. 50%), recharging takes the same 177 seconds.

So, well, in a best case scenario with perfect timing, the smaller shield can save you some 25 seconds per cycle.
But in practice, things rarely go according to plan and timing usually isn't perfect. You may be hot on the tail of a tough opponent by the time you lost 650 shields, and if you break off now you give him a chance to recover or escape, and if you stay you take more damage from his allies. So I still think that stronger shields are better 95% of the time.

Edit:
So what Shield mods do you guys use -- I guess it basically comes down to the choice, Reinforced, or Thermal Resistant? ^^

My experience say the same, small shields with fast recovery time are unpractical, I will happily add some 30-90 sec more to get back 1 or 2 rings BUT still being protected in mid-time, than getting naked, and making your escape without shields.... and sometimes you will still be getting hit in that escape run, hits who will impact your hull / modules.... and any hit you may get in those 1.05 ( like in your ex) will go through hull and hurt internals...

A well-balanced build will go for higher shields, because when you lost 2 of 3 rings you simply can boost out of combat and wait 1-2 min, ( you can run really, really fast ! ) WITHOUT risking module/hull damage in mid-time. A biwave will recharge those 1-2 rings relatively fast, ( under 2 minutes) much faster than a prismatic or a regular class A, if 4 pips are used.

But most important, you avoid serious problems ( like being hit without shields). Some argue a tank hull can take some punishment - partially true, but many NPC.s use rails or PA, and a shieldless ship can get badly damaged by just few shots of those weapons...

I think it is a lot safer to avoid such risks, if possible - and stronger shields are helping.

 

[Stabby_Dave]

Here's mine. It's for PvE training with PA's. Before you say anything, turrets. I know, but they're there to keep on target and keep the heat down whilst I repeatedly miss with the plasmas. I miss a lot. No, really - a lot.

 

[Homerzilla]

Here's mine. It's for PvE training with PA's. Before you say anything, turrets. I know, but they're there to keep on target and keep the heat down whilst I repeatedly miss with the plasmas. I miss a lot. No, really - a lot.

"I repeatedly miss with the plasmas. I miss a lot. No, really - a lot."

That's why I love the frags ! You only can shoot at 5-600m , but you almost never miss - like you cannot miss with a shotgun that melon at 5 m !
And the dam is far superior, tough....
It Is very rewarding to punch holes on those NPCs in Cutters who love to park in your face thinking they can tank your lasers....but when I hit them with frags, oh boy, 1/3 of HP pool is gone after first salvo !

 

[Stabby_Dave]

I think a double shot screening shell all frag Chieftain may well be my go-to build after a few beers.

 

[Kayvan]

I'm still a bit on the fence about the best blueprint for frags, esp for HazRES. Double Shot may be the most "fun" build with a hilarious Alpha strike, but it's also the least efficient with just 90 bursts per loadout. Overcharged has 85% of DS's Alpha but twice the endurance (the normal 180 salvos) and actually better DPE. Finally, the highest endurance is provided by HiCap, doubling your active time to 360 salvos, therefore also doubling your potential damage which may be interesting for longer sessions.

In numbers, Alpha and Potential Damage per ammo load (all mods at G5 100%):
DS: 430 // 38.700
OC: 365 // 65.790
HC: 215 // 77.400

With my first set I went for HC but now I'm thinking OC may be the best compromise of Alpha and potential damage, offering 85% of the respective highest value.
What are your preferences?

 

[Homerzilla]

I'm still a bit on the fence about the best blueprint for frags, esp for HazRES. Double Shot may be the most "fun" build with a hilarious Alpha strike, but it's also the least efficient with just 90 bursts per loadout. Overcharged has 85% of DS's Alpha but twice the endurance (the normal 180 salvos) and actually better DPE. Finally, the highest endurance is provided by HiCap, doubling your active time to 360 salvos, therefore also doubling your potential damage which may be interesting for longer sessions.

In numbers, Alpha and Potential Damage per ammo load (all mods at G5 100%):
DS: 430 // 38.700
OC: 365 // 65.790
HC: 215 // 77.400

With my first set I went for HC but now I'm thinking OC may be the best compromise of Alpha and potential damage, offering 85% of the respective highest value.
What are your preferences?

I found the OC the best option, because of the high dam / enough ammo mix; funny enough, I do less than 1/4 synth rearm with frags than with the MCs !
Probably bc you only need 2-3 well aimed shots to obliterate a ship ( choosing the right moment is crucial, best when they turn and give you a flat belly - at short ranges that is a deadly hit.... )

 

[tolm]

Played some Haz tonight with my Laser/MC setup. So ofc normally I want to take the shields out with Lasers only and then switch to MCs. But on high-rank targets or any who prove to have Banks, it's better to screw ammo saving and pump in everything you got. That way I managed to "cancel" a few SCBs by knocking out the shield before the bank had finished charging -- and that saves a lot of hassle. Granted, that way I only managed some 16 targets with one load, but a damn lot of them were really damn durable (Deadly Gunships and stuff).

On the defensive side I haven't regretted getting rid of my own SCB and slapping in a second GSB instead. Still haven't lost my shields since, and whenever it gets close (rarely happens) I just boost away with FAOff briefly and let them recharge. The Chief is not a shield wonder by any means, but for Haz they work. (Also, I think I get hit a lot less often, since I am better at dodging now.)

I also find that three LR / Thermal Vent beams keep my Chief at 0 - 1% heat so well that enemies have a tougher time locking on to mean the first place!

 

[tolm]

Re small vs large shields -- intuitively I'd say that a bigger shield is always better -- if you have enough shield points that it doesn't break, you don't need to recover it so you're back in the fight more quickly.

However, running some comparisons with Coriolis I think I get what Ander is getting at -- Recovery (with 4 pips to Shields) is a lot faster than Recharge, so if you get the timing right, you may be back to full shields faster.
Let's run the numbers:
So if I understand correctly, Recovery restores 50% of your total shields.

A Bi-Weave with Fast Charge, 650MJ Absolute strength and 4 pips to SYS will recover a broken shield in 1:05, and regenerate from 50 to 100% in about 1:28 (3.7/s). So your total time from broken to full is 153 seconds (during which you mustn't take any damage).
But if with the very same shield you only lose 649 shield points and wait for regeneration, it will take ~177 to fully recharge. Damage you take during recovery time goes to Hull but doesn't delay shield recovery.

If you have 1300 shield and lose 650 (i.e. 50%), recharging takes the same 177 seconds.

So, well, in a best case scenario with perfect timing, the smaller shield can save you some 25 seconds per cycle.
But in practice, things rarely go according to plan and timing usually isn't perfect. You may be hot on the tail of a tough opponent by the time you lost 650 shields, and if you break off now you give him a chance to recover or escape, and if you stay you take more damage from his allies. So I still think that stronger shields are better 95% of the time.

Edit:
So what Shield mods do you guys use -- I guess it basically comes down to the choice, Reinforced, or Thermal Resistant? ^^

I experimented with shield values on my Chief fairly recently - from initially targeting “as much as possible” to then looking to minimise the recharge / recovery times. I’m sitting at around 980MJ right now and that seems about right for me.

- If I have like 1300MJ, it really isn’t necessary against smaller ships and if I screw up and take a pasting from a wing the shields are going down anyway which is why I have 2500 hull and a couple of MRPs.

- I tried around 605MJ for a while but they dropped far more regularly and, whilst the hull can take it, the inevitable “module malfunction” messages and randomly misfiring weapons just winds me up so unless something goes BADLY sideways, I want my shields up and my modules fully protected.

I run a C6 BiWeave with Thermal Resist and Fast Charge. Then 4 Shield Boosters (1x G5 Kinetic Resist and the others G5 Resistance Augmented) and 4 GSBs. Recharge and recovery time are both just over 2 mins which is quick enough to regain some HPs in between fights if needed,

Resists are key: around 60% Thermal / Kinetic and a little higher for Explosive. Means those shields actually feel more like 2000+ MJs provided you can avoid any PA hits which - for a Chief in PvE - is generally not a problem. That, combined with running close-to-zero heat thanks to those Thermal Vent beams, helps them go a lot further.

And if it really does go wrong, that 2500 hull also has 35%-ish resists across the board which, combined with a couple of Guardian MRPs allows me to either finish them off or disengage, depending on how it seems to be going and whether I am outnumbered or not!

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I want a “sexier” cockpit ... that’s the only “bad” thing I can say about the Chief. But no other ship seems to have this combination of decent shields, decent hull, insane agility ... AND 6 hardpoints ... cracking little ship.

 

[Kayvan]

Yeah... I used to run two 4D MRPs before I realized you can actually run more than 1 GSB per ship. At least I hardly ever had module damage that way.
RN my setup looks similar to yours: Thermal Bi-Weaves, GSR 5/4/4, but shield boosters 1 HD and 3 RA, all with SuperCaps. So basically the only difference is 1 HD shield booster instead of your Kinetic I guess.
Values Raw 1126MJ, Kin 51%, Thm 57%, Ex 66%.

However I found that in PvE the Explosive Res on shields is virtually irrelevant bc NPCs only fire missiles when your shields are down.

As for the hull, I'm running Lightweight MilComp with one HD HRP for 1500 hitpoints total, resistances are not so great (between 0 and 30%) bc I'm banking on not losing my shields in the first place and so the idea is that 50 tons less mass (compared to HD Reactive) should have a positive effect on agility. Though honestly I don't know how noticeable the effect actually is, considering we're still looking at 764t total mass. According to EDSY we're looking at 56,15°/s (with 2 pips to ENG) with my setup, and a G5 HD RSC would cost me exactly 1°/s. So probably peanuts, unless drift also increases due to inertia.

The other day in Haz I got a bit reckless and attacked a wing of high level Anaconda + Crusader... that wasn't so smart. I lost my shields at some point, and apparently didn't dodge enough while boosting away bc I got a couple of hard hits (I suppose Plasmas and Rails) in the butt. :/ Lots of modules damaged, my AFMU couldn't even fix them all. I tried patching myself up as well as possible without leaving the instance, but when I was ready to confront the aggroed wing again, I couldn't find them anymore.

Lastly, full ack about the cockpit... the greenhouse canopy really isn't very pretty. xD

 

[Ander_Wand]

The other day in Haz I got a bit reckless and attacked a wing of high level Anaconda + Crusader... that wasn't so smart. I lost my shields at some point, and apparently didn't dodge enough while boosting away bc I got a couple of hard hits (I suppose Plasmas and Rails) in the butt. :/ Lots of modules damaged, my AFMU couldn't even fix them all. I tried patching myself up as well as possible without leaving the instance, but when I was ready to confront the aggroed wing again, I couldn't find them anymore.

That's where having 3 MRP comes in handy. At 94% module protection and raw module armour exceeding 700 I don't really need to worry having my shields drop. Might be a bit subjective, but adding the third MRP made a huge difference to module damage I take with shields down. When they drop eventually, I just keep the pips to WEP and ENG, finish the fight and let them recover after that for the next engagement.
But as usual, it is mostly a matter of personal preference. Some people just seem to have a holy fear of their shields dropping, while I find it totally manageable.

Edit: just reread what you said about your setup.... that is certainly not suited for hulltanking at all. My chieftain has 3500 base integrity and all hull resistances around 40%, so I can tank fire with shields down with much more peace of mind having effective hull HP of around 6000 across the board.

 

[Homerzilla]

Yeah... I used to run two 4D MRPs before I realized you can actually run more than 1 GSB per ship. At least I hardly ever had module damage that way.
RN my setup looks similar to yours: Thermal Bi-Weaves, GSR 5/4/4, but shield boosters 1 HD and 3 RA, all with SuperCaps. So basically the only difference is 1 HD shield booster instead of your Kinetic I guess.
Values Raw 1126MJ, Kin 51%, Thm 57%, Ex 66%.

However I found that in PvE the Explosive Res on shields is virtually irrelevant bc NPCs only fire missiles when your shields are down.

As for the hull, I'm running Lightweight MilComp with one HD HRP for 1500 hitpoints total, resistances are not so great (between 0 and 30%) bc I'm banking on not losing my shields in the first place and so the idea is that 50 tons less mass (compared to HD Reactive) should have a positive effect on agility. Though honestly I don't know how noticeable the effect actually is, considering we're still looking at 764t total mass. According to EDSY we're looking at 56,15°/s (with 2 pips to ENG) with my setup, and a G5 HD RSC would cost me exactly 1°/s. So probably peanuts, unless drift also increases due to inertia.

The other day in Haz I got a bit reckless and attacked a wing of high level Anaconda + Crusader... that wasn't so smart. I lost my shields at some point, and apparently didn't dodge enough while boosting away bc I got a couple of hard hits (I suppose Plasmas and Rails) in the butt. :/ Lots of modules damaged, my AFMU couldn't even fix them all. I tried patching myself up as well as possible without leaving the instance, but when I was ready to confront the aggroed wing again, I couldn't find them anymore.

Lastly, full ack about the cockpit... the greenhouse canopy really isn't very pretty. xD

I run through your "experience" with a wing of such "angry NPC.s", and I was down to the last ring of shields BUT what saved me was the fact I managed to kill the first Conda in some 20 sec ( I get near, in her six at 3-400m, and I open fire with all ( beams AND frags, pumping all as fast I could ! ) ; My PD if modded for weapons, so with 3 pips I can shoot all weapons a lot of time ; the damage was so harsh it overcharged her cells and she lost shields in no time.
The fact I was able to maintain position in her six all the time helped a lot, tough, like did the chaff I popped non-stop.

After first kill the second Conda was harder to get,, she was boosting mad and was hard to catch her - took more than 2-3 minutes and in the mid-time the Crusader ripped 75-80% of my shields ....
But after I finished the second Annie, the Crusader was unable,, in a 1 vs 1, to hold my frags damage at blind range for too long... I was almost with no shields, but was an exciting, full of adrenaline fight.... I enjoyed every bit of it !
I suppose the main factor was in the ability to inflict massive damage in a short time with the frags .... any other weapons probably needed more time to get the kills, and that could be time you get hit, also…

 

[Kayvan]

Oh, another question. What's the point of Guardian Hull/Module reinforcements?

 

[sinisalo]

GSB = Guardian Shield Booster?

There is some acronym jumbling in this thread, which could possibly lead to confusion

There is no GSB

GFSDB = Guardian Frame Shift Drive Booster
SCB = Shield Cell Booster/Bank
GSR =Guardian Shield Reinforcement

Resists are key: around 60% Thermal / Kinetic and a little higher for Explosive. Means those shields actually feel more like 2000+ MJs .... That, combined with running close-to-zero heat thanks to those Thermal Vent beams, helps them go a lot further.

Completely agree, although I don't prioritize explosive. It just comes naturally through most modifications it seems. But in the fast ships I fly, thermal weapons are what hits me, and with shields particularly vulnerable to thermal attacks, thermal resist engineering is the biggest key for me. It increases what I call the 'elasticity' of the shields. The best shields for PvE in my view are those which balance mj and thermal resists.

 

[Ander_Wand]

Oh, another question. What's the point of Guardian Hull/Module reinforcements?

They provide more HP at the cost of power draw