Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

To be fair, the burning of a million pounds was pretty tame compared to their dumping a dead sheep at the Brit awards or shooting blanks into the audience when they performed with Extreme Noise Terror.
Deleting their entire catalogue so that you couldn't buy their music any more once they split almost certainly cost them a significant amount too.

I had a bunch of weird KLF stuff (white labels, etc) in my CD collection when it was all nicked in 2000ish. I'm still sad.
 
I own two ship from real money, a Mercury Star Runner and an Origin 325A, other ships i own are a Super Hornet, Vanguard Sentinel, MISC Prospector and an Anvil Arrow, all bough with in game credits, i haven't had my account reset in 9 months, maybe a year, i don't know exactly, so much for persistence not being in, the fact that my account has persisted for 9 moths or a year has enabled me to buy all of those ships in game, the recent Xeno Threat was particularly profitable, i earned millions doing that. Mining is also quite profitable, especially if you can find Quantanium. tho its extremely volatile and can explode in your Prospector if not careful.

Really in 9 months or a year i have everything that i need, it should really take 2 years to get ones personal fleet up to this level. and big multi-crew ships like the Carrack or Hammerhead should take a year or two with an Org pooling their resources.

I think without real money ship sales, which will happen, already has to some extent, CIG will bring in the money the same way others do, which includes ED, micro transactions, ship and gun skins, amour skins, ecte... This is perfectly fine, such things don't give you an advantage, they just make you stand out visually, these companies need to keep making money to survive and this is a good and morally sound way of doing it.
Yet if people will be able to purchase in-game credits with real money, ship sales won't really go away - they'll just get repositioned under the auspices of buying credits for discretionary spending, whether it's on a new Star Kitten skin or a Banu Merchantman.

If CIG separates buyable currency for cosmetic-only purchases, I will cede my point. Thus far, they've made no mention of doing that.
 
Oh you're getting grumpy already? Bit early.

Framing it as 'basically their own engine' was pretty fuzzy. Fuzzy enough that it crossed over into 'wrong' in various ways and people needled you about it ¯\(ツ)/¯

You've gotta remember that SC has been garlanded with various unearned achievements over the years, both by CIG and by its more enamoured fans. This thread has an aversion to oversell on those fronts. If you don't want to be chased around over stuff like that, be more accurate with your language ¯\(ツ)/¯

PS describing it as 'their own creation' is similarly fuzzy ;)

They didn't build it from first principles, they didn't 'create' it. Yes they've added novel stuff to it, and yes they've built in-house tools. But they haven't stripped all of Cryengine out of it, they're still working on top of it, and still hemmed in by it (as the occasional comedy water leakages attest ;)). They still use a hodge podge of 3rd party add-ons (SpeedTree for planetary flora, Kythera for AI etc). They're still using plenty of 3rd party and Cryengine tools (Track View etc).

Casting the whole as CIG's 'creation' is just inaccurate ¯\(ツ)/¯
The game has some problems, including comedy bugs like this, which get fixed and new ones appear, they reappear in a later patch..... no one is denying that, some people can't tolerate this, others see the funny side of it and just role with it. there are plenty of games which are officially released and have the same sort of bugs.

As for the Speedtree thing, CIG themselves acknowledged its a bit cheap to use Speedtree and promised to do better, visually the game is improving all the time, almost with every patch they release it improves.

As for the Speedtree link you posted, its not actually Speedtree, Speedtree is for flora creation, its very good but its not ideal for 3D game assets.
What you posted there is substance designer, which is an excellent application for world building, i don't see the point you're making, sometimes the tools you need already exist and Substance is fantastic for material scaping. they use Houdini for space gas clouds, 3DSMax and Maya for 3D assets, just like just about everyother game developer, and they are quite open about this, why not, its an industry standard.

And you can't deny the results are stunning, as per the image used in your link.

94wkrBH.jpg
 
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I was following Star Citizen before I knew about Elite, backed them both at about the same time.

The Star Citizen I backed promised a single player campaign called SQ 42, that would be able to be played coop with friends and would lead into an open sandbox persistent universe, consisting of more than 100 star systems. All in glorious VR. Those would be the good points. If it had any of this.

I have come to accept that Star Citizen will never even remotely become this thing they promised. After nearly 10 years we have buggy walking simulator where you can move around space ships that handle really bad (subjective, of course) in 1 incomplete and scaled down star system. I play from time to time, probably not even every year, to see what is new, but rarely launch it a second time. If I would invest more time and learn to work around the bugs I'd probably even enjoy parts of it, but my free time is limited, so I use it to play other games I enjoy more. Like Elite, which delivered way more than I expected.

I also was following SC before ED. The SC presentation was a lot more interesting, although even then i was seeing some red flags. The whole saving PC gaming thing and never been done before style proclamations made me think he was (once again) biting off more than he could chew. When he said they could make the best damn space sim ever for a few million and in 2-3 years i knew that he was living in fantasy land and hadn't actually got a viable plan.

However, after seeing the early pitches for ED Braben's pitch didn't sell me either. It was a bit weak and i thought at the time and they had been talking about Elite 4 for ages and it simply wasn't going to happen. That they were simply trying to ride the coattails of SC's kickstarter.

So, in short, i basically didn't expect either to deliver.

It wasn't until ED was already in premium beta when @hunvagy (who i knew from a different game we used to play) said that he and @anikaiful had got Premium beta and he said it was good and i should check it out. At that point ED had kind of dropped off my radar because I wasn't expecting it to happen. So i took a look and was pleasantly surprised by the state of it, how FD had a release plan. But i still dawdled and missed out on Premium beta and ended up getting regular beta.

To date i have no regrets about buying ED and no regrets about not buying into Star Citizen.

ED has lived up to my expectations more or less. Sure, i wish the devs had made some different design decisions. I'm sure most of us have our own ideas about how things "should" have been. But i got a released game i enjoy with continued updates. A game i'm free to enjoy and criticize.

SC has also lived up to my expectations, because from quite early on I felt that it was going to be stuck in development hell and even if it does release, its not going to be the game that was sold to backers.
 
I think without real money ship sales, which will happen, already has to some extent, CIG will bring in the money the same way others do, which includes ED, micro transactions, ship and gun skins, amour skins, ecte... This is perfectly fine, such things don't give you an advantage, they just make you stand out visually, these companies need to keep making money to survive and this is a good and morally sound way of doing it.

As noted, they already said they will continue the sale of credits for real money. I'm sure that will bring in a nice amount of money. Works well for Rockstar with shark cards. It will be pay to win though.

They will need the money though, those server and employee/contractor costs will continue to be high. Not to mention things like the rent on their lovely new building in Germany which is currently in alpha development. :p
 
Deleting their entire catalogue so that you couldn't buy their music any more once they split almost certainly cost them a significant amount too.

I had a bunch of weird KLF stuff (white labels, etc) in my CD collection when it was all nicked in 2000ish. I'm still sad.

They recently rereleased their back catalogue along with some new stuff.

Also, they are trying to do something strange like building a pyramid made from the bricks of dead people's ashes.
 

Craith

Volunteer Moderator
I still havent tried VR, but its statements like this that make me want to soooo much, but if I do then have to go back to my XB & TV I think I may just start sobbing so I keep waiting. Its like I want to but I daren't in case it ruins the game I do have and love.



Why is this btw? I remember a few years ago every time I went to the cinema it ran an advert something like '23 Frames Per Second' and I know the human eye / brain only processes so many FPS under normal circumstances and I play on 30 FPS on my XB all the time so how does more FPS than the eye can process make it better? Yes I know dont understand film making either, let alone game development, this thread is exposing all my flaws lol but just curious why it matters so much as long as its smooth, which films are and my XB is? Quicker processing / loading / fidelity even etc I can understand the attraction but not this FPS thing.'
Yes, I have trouble playing Elite on a screen since I started VR - don't get me wrong, VR has its downfalls, some tricks that are done in Elite are looking bad in VR (rotating particles, I am looking at you), and my screenshots are low resolution and lower quality than if I do them on a screen.

The 23 frames per seconds are fast enough that you can't see single images, so they kind of blend into one fluid motion. Fast movements, however, will look choppy, and you might get effects like stationary rotor blades or wheels turning backwards.

In a computer game, more frames are important for 2 reasons.
First, you usually have a lot of things going on, and if you turn quickly, it will become choppy with 30 fps. If you turn 180° in 1 second, it means you only get one frame every 6°. 6° is an angle you can easily see with the naked eye. Of course, games use tricks to blend between those frames, most (in)famous is motion blur.
Second, your frametime (the inverse of the fps, time per frame) adds to your reaction time between when you see something until when your reaction occurs. If you spot something, your reaction time of lets say 100 ms passes until you start to react, then on the following frame your reaction gets translated into an action in the game. With 30 FPS, that means 133 ms before you react, compared to the 117 with 60 FPS, or 108 with 120 FPS. The better your reaction time, the bigger the impact of low frames.

In VR, there is another reason why you need high framerates - it dictates how fast your shown picture reacts to your head movement (the tracking). Imagine having a picture that is off by 6° whenever you move your head in real life - it would get disorienting quite fast (a bit comparable to wearing glasses that have the wrong dioptries). And this is for rather slow movement of your head. Nowadays headsets interpolate between frames, but this will leave some artifacts on the screen. I wish I could play Elite in 120 fps on my headset, but I settled for 80, which I reach most of the time, and it never drops below half (= 40), which would cause the interpolation to fail, and create really choppy experience. (VR nausea comes from the sensory input from your eyes not matching the input from your inner ear, so your brain goes into caveman mode and the only logical explanation is that you ate something poisonous, and the proper way to remedy this is to throw up - the same reason just with the inputs switched why some people can't read in cars. It is better when you move on your own, even if it is just a button you press to move forward, because your brain anticipates the movement, and adjusts better.)

To get back on topic, one other thing you don't want in VR is getting moved ingame without your input - like the forced animations in Star Citizen, when you for example climb up a ladder. Again, input of your eyes and your inner ear don't match in these cases.
 
The game has some problems, including comedy bugs like this, which get fixed and new ones appear, they reappear in a later patch..... no one is denying that, some people can't tolerate this, others see the funny side of it and just role with it. there are plenty of games which are officially released and have the same sort of bugs.

Nope that's utter nonsense I'm afraid. Most AAA games don't have community guides for new players which look like this:


You'll notice they're talking about bugs that have persisted over multiple patches (and indeed years) there.

But this is off the topic. The point of the particular bug I highlighted was that it speaks to clashes between core Cryengine functions and the inserted SC alterations. (IE the 'everything's underwater' issue mentioned previously).

Cryengine isn't Unity, it wasn't built to be an all-purpose starting point. It was built to be a small map FPS engine. It's naturally in conflict with CIG's changes wherever they're pushing it beyond its comfort zones. The fact that those frictions still exist shows us that plenty of Cry still lurks within ;)

As for the Speedtree thing, CIG themselves acknowledged its a bit cheap to use Speedtree and promised to do better,

CIG promise a lot of things ;)

As for the Speedtree link you posted, its not actually Speedtree, Speedtree is for flora creation, its very good but its not ideal for 3D game assets.
What you posted there is substance designer, which is an excellent application for world building,

You might want to try actually reading the article ;). It discusses how they use SpeedTree as part of their workflow.

i don't see the point you're making, sometimes the tools you need already exist and Substance is fantastic for material scaping. they use Houdini for space gas clouds, 3DSMax and Maya for 3D assets, just like just about everyother game developer, and they are quite open about this, why not, its an industry standard.

I was making multiple points :). That particular one was about showcase aspects of CIG's world being achieved via third party solutions. Yes it's absolutely normal for game engines to be supplemented in this way, but every aspect you farm out lessens any claims to the whole being 'your engine' or 'your creation'. (Although I'm surprised CIG don't blame the rubbish AI on Kythera more often ;))

And you can't deny the results are stunning, as per the image used in your link.

I don't deny that, I think SC looks great for a large scale MMO :)

Whether they'll have to reduce the gloss to hit a launch state remains to be seen though. (Chris's overall objective of 'single player visual quality + massively multiplayer + huge world' is a combo that's destined for compromises...)
 
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As for the Speedtree thing, CIG themselves acknowledged its a bit cheap to use Speedtree and promised to do better, visually the game is improving all the time, almost with every patch they release it improves.

As for the Speedtree link you posted, its not actually Speedtree, Speedtree is for flora creation, its very good but its not ideal for 3D game assets.
I'm not quite sure why using Speedtree is some kind of crutch or "cheap." It's a tool that's easy to use, powerful, widely known and easy to incorporate into (nearly) every major modern engine. Why would CI spend years and years developing an in-house solution to a problem that's already solved?

And it's insanely ideal for 3d game assets, especially being able to create varied, life-like plant biomes (forests, jungles, etc).
 
and I know the human eye / brain only processes so many FPS under normal circumstances

That is a myth. It's true 24fps is enough to blend one image to the other by the brain, but the eye can see more just fine. Movies are shot at 24fps but displayed at many multiples of that, typically 60, 120, 240, 300 etc, the refresh rate, with each image shown multiple times.

The reason movies are shot at 24fps is to correctly sync up audio during playback, and also save on film when they are shot on film. More recently 4k video is shot at 60fps digitally and displayed at multiples of that to produce more smooth motion. Yes, this is visible with the naked eye, can see it even on youtube with highly compressed 4k video.

For games 24fps produces jerky motion, even if the images blend together just fine when standing still. When moving the reaction time of rendering the new frame is higher wtih a lower fps and that looks jerky. The higher the FPS, up to refresh rate, the smoother the motion appears, especially as resolution increases and thus more details are visible in each frame.

For competitive games high FPS is a requirement to decrease time delay between movement and seeing something on screen. This provides a competitive advantage. Refresh rate / frames per second = latency of seeing something appear on screen.

and promised to do better
Oh ok, since they promised.. :LOL:
 
Why would CI spend years and years developing an in-house solution to a problem that's already solved?

So they can claim its never been done before of course you silly billy! Plus by doing it themselves they can make loads of videos about it, promising its coming soon and how great its going to be, and then follow it up with a ship sale to milk backers while they are still high from their latest video dopamine hit.
 
CIG kind of painted themselves into a corner regarding ships. If there is an official release, being able to earn all ships in-game will certainly appeal to a potentially larger player base. This is a great idea, because new money will be good for sustaining servers and other overhead costs to keep things running.

However, if the cost is too high, and requires an inordinate amount of time to earn said ships (and again, each player has their own threshold as to what is inordinate) then getting and retaining new players will be challenging, and may yield negative reviews. At the same time, if a new player can grind for a month by playing a few hours a week or night and get the ship they want, they will alienate the backers who pledged early on, and received those sweet ships as a "thank you" for their support.

To date, I do not believe CIG has addressed how they plan on resolving this conundrum.
Don't make the mistake of assuming they haven't thought this through from a monetizing perspective. There is an easy way to keep original backers happy as long as they have LTI and still keep the money fracking going strong after release.

In the long run they probably gonna switch from monetizing ships to monetizing insurance.
Their game engine being what it is, one can expect tons of exploits / cheats. They can't monetize in-game assets effectively anymore when a certain amount of players will just skip the grind via exploits. Ships and other stuff will be available a dime a dozen. Just look at how many Titans are there in EvE (and CCP have created a pretty robust in-game economy and stable servers).
Insurance is a different story though. You can't exploit, hoard, or macro your way to a cargo hold full of insurance only to distribute it among your org members. You have to get that through CIG and they will make you pay through your nose for it.

This will in turn keep those peeps happy that pledged early on, provided they got an LTI ship.

Seen that thread on the main sub where one innocent guy asked about how much insurance will ultimately cost for those without LTI? Whole thread exploded. No one knew for sure and no one wanted to admit. Lots of conflicting information from CIG. Customer support says one thing, website says a different thing, management avoids the topic completely. Pretty darn telling if you ask me.
 
I'm not quite sure why using Speedtree is some kind of crutch or "cheap." It's a tool that's easy to use, powerful, widely known and easy to incorporate into (nearly) every major modern engine. Why would CI spend years and years developing an in-house solution to a problem that's already solved?

And it's insanely ideal for 3d game assets, especially being able to create varied, life-like plant biomes (forests, jungles, etc).
The in-house solution will be Roberts having them planting each tree by hand. Or maybe he will sell saplings to backers to plant themselves, in order to save the alien planet or such crap only a true Citizen would fall for.
Have I just given CI a money making idea? o_O
 
Don't make the mistake of assuming they haven't thought this through from a monetizing perspective. There is an easy way to keep original backers happy as long as they have LTI and still keep the money fracking going strong after release.

In the long run they probably gonna switch from monetizing ships to monetizing insurance.
Their game engine being what it is, one can expect tons of exploits / cheats. They can't monetize in-game assets effectively anymore when a certain amount of players will just skip the grind via exploits. Ships and other stuff will be available a dime a dozen. Just look at how many Titans are there in EvE (and CCP have created a pretty robust in-game economy and stable servers).
Insurance is a different story though. You can't exploit, hoard, or macro your way to a cargo hold full of insurance only to distribute it among your org members. You have to get that through CIG and they will make you pay through your nose for it.

This will in turn keep those peeps happy that pledged early on, provided they got an LTI ship.

Seen that thread on the main sub where one innocent guy asked about how much insurance will ultimately cost for those without LTI? Whole thread exploded. No one knew for sure and no one wanted to admit. Lots of conflicting information from CIG. Customer support says one thing, website says a different thing, management avoids the topic completely. Pretty darn telling if you ask me.
Oh I'm definitely not discounting insurance to play a big part in their monetization model. It's kind of the mechanic that drives those LTI sales pledges. Kind of like how Shroud of the Avatar pushed taxable/tax-exempt digital property (can't wait to see how CIG extrapolates that for their own land claims).
 
I'm not quite sure why using Speedtree is some kind of crutch or "cheap." It's a tool that's easy to use, powerful, widely known and easy to incorporate into (nearly) every major modern engine. Why would CI spend years and years developing an in-house solution to a problem that's already solved?

And it's insanely ideal for 3d game assets, especially being able to create varied, life-like plant biomes (forests, jungles, etc).
That's been done before and thus not sufficient for the dream.
 
Why would CI spend years and years developing an in-house solution to a problem that's already solved?
Because in a way that is the very pitch of Star Citizen. It is all about 'new tech', 'pushing boundaries', 'never done before' and so forth. Cleverly using existing tools to create a compelling and cohesive experience in a stable and optimized package is the opposite of that.
 
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