Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[Surefoot]

I still havent tried VR, but its statements like this that make me want to soooo much, but if I do then have to go back to my XB & TV I think I may just start sobbing so I keep waiting. Its like I want to but I daren't in case it ruins the game I do have and love.

Spoiler: it does - if you play ED in VR you cannot go back to a flat screen.

Why is this btw? I remember a few years ago every time I went to the cinema it ran an advert something like '23 Frames Per Second' and I know the human eye / brain only processes so many FPS under normal circumstances and I play on 30 FPS on my XB all the time so how does more FPS than the eye can process make it better?

It's a common misconception, the 24fps for movies is just about "it's the bare minimum to create the illusion of movement". Your eyes and brains are a lot quicker, some say in the vicinity of 120fps if you want a kind of measurement, but also real objects through continuous movement will create a motion blur due to retina cells persistence.
For VR there's an additional constraint which is your inner ear. You brains will couple perceived movement from your vision to your inner ear to check that it matches the motion. If it doesnt - instant nausea/headaches. It does so pretty quickly and yeah 90fps is about the minimum there to fool the brain.
By the way, i usually play at 120+fps (got a 144Hz gsync monitor) and 60fps looks really choppy to me, especially when looking around (60fps locked games.. sigh). 30fps is in the "not acceptable" territory.

 

[Intrepid3D]

As noted, they already said they will continue the sale of credits for real money. I'm sure that will bring in a nice amount of money. Works well for Rockstar with shark cards. It will be pay to win though.

They will need the money though, those server and employee/contractor costs will continue to be high. Not to mention things like the rent on their lovely new building in Germany which is currently in alpha development.

Have they though? could you send me a link to where they said this, i have been following SC pretty extensivly over the years and i don't remember this being said. thanks

 

[Intrepid3D]

Nope that's utter nonsense I'm afraid. Most AAA games don't have community guides for new players which look like this:

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/kn1h6g Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/kn1h6g/some_general_tips_that_can_improve_your_sc/

You'll notice they're talking about bugs that have persisted over multiple patches (and indeed years) there.

But this is off the topic. The point of the particular bug I highlighted was that it speaks to clashes between core Cryengine functions and the inserted SC alterations. (IE the 'everything's underwater' issue mentioned previously).

Cryengine isn't Unity, it wasn't built to be an all-purpose starting point. It was built to be a small map FPS engine. It's naturally in conflict with CIG's changes wherever they're pushing it beyond its comfort zones. The fact that those frictions still exist shows us that plenty of Cry still lurks within



CIG promise a lot of things



You might want to try actually reading the article . It discusses how they use SpeedTree as part of their workflow.



I was making multiple points . That particular one was about showcase aspects of CIG's world being achieved via third party solutions. Yes it's absolutely normal for game engines to be supplemented in this way, but every aspect you farm out lessens any claims to the whole being 'your engine' or 'your creation'. (Although I'm surprised CIG don't blame the rubbish AI on Kythera more often )



I don't deny that, I think SC looks great for a large scale MMO

Whether they'll have to reduce the gloss to hit a launch state remains to be seen though. (Chris's overall objective of 'single player visual quality + massively multiplayer + huge world' is a combo that's destined for compromises...)

Some of the bugs on that list have been fixed, new ones have appeared.

We should, but can, only hold CIG responsible for bugs as and when they are, accumulating bugs from past and present holding them up as if they are a perpetual problem is disingenuous at best, its not a good way to make a point.

 

[Intrepid3D]

One other thing, a finished released game is not what Star Citizen is, its a game very much under construction and we have access to it during its construction.

I know a lot of you don't like that being said, its seen as an excuse, its not, its a fact.

If CIG shut the servers down tomorrow and said they wont be coming back until the game is in a released state would that be more to your liking?

 

[ECity]

False dichotomy. CIG could go from released game to paid DLC, selling legitimately. They're running a confidence scam.

Chris was dishonest from day one. Ignoring that is irrational.

 

[Vetinari]

Thanks everyone for the FPS info, makes a lot of sense and I understand a bit more about film & game development now. I guess thats why on XB the turning movement is slower, to avoid the jerky frames it couldnt keep up with.

, CIG will bring in the money the same way others do, which includes ED, micro transactions, ship and gun skins, amour skins, ecte..

Careful, until they made ED free last year micro-transactions only accounted for 20% ish of ED revenue, 80%ish was from new game sales. Remember Frontier is a PLC so they have to publish annual accounts in UK where the figures are available for all to see, grumps like to say its all micro-transactions coz it fits their narrative but it hasn't been historically. Dunno what the 2020-21 accts are since the free giveaway as haven't seen them yet.

CIG just promised to publish accts if they didnt release the game by a certain year to pretend to be open with backers about where the money went but ofc they didnt keep that KS promise (legal guarantee btw) either. Its one of the reasons Derek Smart got so agitated.

But Frontier also give 20K+ free ARX per year just for playing which is enough if you wait for the sales to get some decent PJs...even 2 or 3 Midnight Blacks for example so you dont even need to buy ARX just to have a PJ these days, unlike when I started which proper annoyed me. I expect they now expect to make the same kind of revenue from new sales of Odyssey (80%+), especially all those alt accounts created for free . So the free game is a loss-leader for an 'old' product to entice sales of the new product - the Odyssey DLC - but ofc you dont have to buy Odyssey to play the game, or PJs, or anything from the cosmetics store to play the game either and you cant buy ships or credits or any 'advantage' at all with real money.

And ED is just one of many successful games that Frontier have made from scratch that follow the same format....and recently they turned to publishing as well....boo evil publishers....and published their first game made by someone else with plans to do a few a year when it gets going.

Basically DB is a genius and very business savvy to boot. Without him there may not be or not have been anyway such a strong UK games business in general. Backers took risks on other UK games companies because of the success of Frontier all those years ago. Some failed some thrived but may not have been possible at all without DB and Frontier. I know I sound like a SC cultist but this is all actually real and happened and documented.

 

[VR Golgot]

Have they though? could you send me a link to where they said this, i have been following SC pretty extensivly over the years and i don't remember this being said. thanks

April 2013:

Once fully live SC in-game items will only be purchasable with in-game credits. There will even be some items you can ONLY earn by playing / flying missions. All you will be able to spend money on that is gameplay related would be buying some in-game credits as you don't want or don't have enough time to earn the credits you need for your contemplated purchase.

December 2015 (Vid now private - Reddit discussions from the time here and here)

Right now the plan is that once the game's launched that people will be able to buy UEC, within a limited time, they can't buy an infinite amount.

August 2018

From day one of the campaign we’ve been quite clear on the economic model for Star Citizen, which is to not require a subscription like many MMOs, but instead rely on sales of initial game packages and in-game money to fund development and online running costs.

There used to be an upper bound cap of 150,000 UEC on how many credits you could accrue pre-launch but that was removed in 2018. There is still a 24hr limit of 25k (approx $30) per 24hrs.

 

[VR Golgot]

Some of the bugs on that list have been fixed, new ones have appeared.

We should, but can, only hold CIG responsible for bugs as and when they are, accumulating bugs from past and present holding them up as if they are a perpetual problem is disingenuous at best, its not a good way to make a point.

Lol, what?

Oh well you best go tell that guy he's disingenuous for compiling that list 4 months ago and for stating that many of those bugs are long-term issues. And for being right, because most of them still are.

Also he owes you comparable lists from "plenty of" other AAA games...

Lord you are deep in the hole. Wonder if it's the nigh $400 you've seemingly spent that makes you so?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Have they though? could you send me a link to where they said this, i have been following SC pretty extensivly over the years and i don't remember this being said. thanks

Now, that would take some digging. It was a hot topic a few years ago. CIG talked about liming the amount of credits you can buy with cash per month to stop it being abused.

Maybe someone else can pull up a relevant dev quote.

Keep in mind, CIG have said a lot of stuff over the years, and you are possibly not aware of half of the things they have said.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

One other thing, a finished released game is not what Star Citizen is, its a game very much under construction and we have access to it during its construction.

I know a lot of you don't like that being said, its seen as an excuse, its not, its a fact.

If CIG shut the servers down tomorrow and said they wont be coming back until the game is in a released state would that be more to your liking?

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. We know its a game very much under construction.

I'd like to see what would happen if CIG shut down the servers, funding would whither pretty quickly i think.

I think you're missing the point somewhere though. The problem isn't with an open alpha (although having an open alpha of course comes with certain baggage).

The problems stem from the things CIG have said and done during this time. The fact that the alpha is open is just a good source of amusement when we get to laugh at some of the bugs.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

April 2013:



December 2015 (Vid now private - Reddit discussions from the time here and here)



August 2018



There used to be an upper bound cap of 150,000 UEC on how many credits you could accrue pre-launch but that was removed in 2018. There is still a 24hr limit of 25k (approx $30) per 24hrs.

Thanks for the sources. Was worried for a moment that Intrepid would declare i was making it up because he hasn't heard of it.

 

[Viajero]

One other thing, a finished released game is not what Star Citizen is, its a game very much under construction and we have access to it during its construction.

I know a lot of you don't like that being said, its seen as an excuse, its not, its a fact.

If CIG shut the servers down tomorrow and said they wont be coming back until the game is in a released state would that be more to your liking?

The thing is that is not a fact, at best it is a partial truth. It is not that simple.

Saying a game is just "under construction" conveys the idea it is all as planned and normal. After all anything created had to be under construction at some point no?

The issue with Star Citizen is precisely that it is one of the game projects that has been "under construction" for the longest time due to all kind of technology problems and mismanagement in the first place. The amount of still missing content suggests it will be indeed the game with the longest development time before release ever recorded asuming it gets to completion as described and promised.

In the mean time and as a result of all those technical issues and mismanagement the amount of game breaking bugs, game breaking glitches, low performance and instability after all this time is untold.

As for your question regarding shutting down servers and only coming back when the product is ready or nearly ready, well, CIG managed to receive (asuming we believe their tracker) 120 times more money than they asked for in the original Kickstarter (Kickstarter required was 0.5 millions and CIG had 65 millions by the end of the stretch goals series in 2014). So if they had managed the project and their funds properly, and barring any technical issues (which they seem to have a ton of sadly) they would have been able to do exactly that.

 

[Viajero]

There is still a 24hr limit of 25k (approx $30) per 24hrs.

That is still not a cap though. Just an increase in real money costs for in the in game money: Players can simply purchase additional accounts and buy as much in game credits as they want with them in any given day, then transfer all that to the single account of their choice.

There is no real cap. The way things are proposed the only thing that limits real money purchases of in game credits is the size of a players wallet, irrespective of how efficient we may think the game credits actually are in game.

 

[Skizomeuh]

Thanks for the sources. Was worried for a moment that Intrepid would declare i was making it up because he hasn't heard of it.

Same as with Chris' handwaving, CIG are expert in the art of noise (pun to recent digression intended ), an useful two edged sword that help fueling the dream all the while covering the tracks as with so many years, layers and contradictory versions of the same topic it's difficult to grasp what's currently true.

Quite useful for the faithful too as they can adapt "facts" to suit their current narrative. Hence the "It's a better game than many released AAA, but it's an alpha", "it's procedurally handcrafted", "it's CryEngine but also Lumberyard but also Frankengine", "it's OK because other games do the same, but SC is not like other games and CIG makes things never done before", and so one. And so as easy as snapping fingers they can swipe off any argumentation with excuses like "this doesn't apply because dev only started I 20xx"

And sorry dear @Viajero but yes, it's a fact: CIG gobbled $400+M in 10 years span and only currently happen to make an alpha (though compared relatively to many of the other recent alpha games I played, and the millions of km of roads CIG have yet to cross to reach something substantial, I have hard times considering SC as alpha). So how many times this amount of money and dev time for a finished product?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The thing is that is not a fact, at best it is a partial truth. It is not that simple.

Saying a game is just "under construction" conveys the idea it is all as planned and normal. After all anything created had to be under construction at some point no?

The issue with Star Citizen is precisely that it is one of the game projects that has been "under construction" for the longest time due to all kind of technoloy problems and mismanagement in the first place. The amount of still missing content suggests it will be indeed the game with the longest development time before release ever recorded asuming it gets to completion as described and promised.

In the mean time and as a result of all those technical issues and mismanagement the amount of game breaking bugs, game breaking glitches, low performance and instability after all this time is untold.

As for your question regarding shutting down servers and only coming back when the product is ready or nearly ready, well, CIG managed to receive (asuming we believe their tracker) 120 times more money than they asked for in the original Kickstarter (Kickstarter required was 0.5 millions and CIG had 65 millions by the end of the stretch goals series in 2014). So if they had managed the project and their funds properly, and barring any technical issues (which they seem to have a ton of sadly) they would have been able to do exactly that.

Or, and hear me out, they had absoloutely zero clue how much time and money they really needed to make what they wanted to make and were just throwing numbers at the wall and seeing what stuck.

 

[VR Golgot]

That is still not a cap though. Just an increase in real money costs for in the in game money: Players can simply purchase additional accounts and buy as much in game credits as they want with them in any given day, then transfer all that to the single account of their choice.

There is no real cap. The way things are proposed the only thing that limits real money purchases of in game credits is the size of a players wallet, irrespective of how efficient we may think the game credits actually are in game.

Yep, credit transfer between accounts is a thing. And also, there's no cap on ship purchases

Ultimately somebody would have to be pretty dumb to stockpile UEC heavily as things stand. Stockpiling ships would be a better way to build a war chest. But as Dementropy points out, it's the P2W (Or 'Pay to Play Your Way' ) system that they've planned for post launch, and it has plenty of flex in it. The attractiveness and utility of credit purchases can certainly be dialled up post-launch.

 

[cigwatch]

Or, and hear me out, they had absoloutely zero clue how much time and money they really needed to make what they wanted to make and were just throwing numbers at the wall and seeing what stuck.

It is hard to estimate how much resources one needs when one has no idea what one is building. Everything Handwaved Space Shooter Second Life is not a design, neither it is a vision. It is a narrative device for marketing purposes and a dopamine pump for the narcissistic "visionary".

 

[hairychris]

That is a myth. It's true 24fps is enough to blend one image to the other by the brain, but the eye can see more just fine. Movies are shot at 24fps but displayed at many multiples of that, typically 60, 120, 240, 300 etc, the refresh rate, with each image shown multiple times.

The reason movies are shot at 24fps is to correctly sync up audio during playback, and also save on film when they are shot on film. More recently 4k video is shot at 60fps digitally and displayed at multiples of that to produce more smooth motion. Yes, this is visible with the naked eye, can see it even on youtube with highly compressed 4k video.

For games 24fps produces jerky motion, even if the images blend together just fine when standing still. When moving the reaction time of rendering the new frame is higher wtih a lower fps and that looks jerky. The higher the FPS, up to refresh rate, the smoother the motion appears, especially as resolution increases and thus more details are visible in each frame.

For competitive games high FPS is a requirement to decrease time delay between movement and seeing something on screen. This provides a competitive advantage. Refresh rate / frames per second = latency of seeing something appear on screen.

Indeed. The brain processes visual input in a variety of ways at the same time, like peripheral vision that's basically not updated until something moves to your centre of focus which can be incredibly sensitive. So for something requiring attention aka a game the smoother the better!

 

[ZeeWolf]

I have never heard of a game under development having live users celebrating it's persistance. That's just a release. Software is out there. People are playing it. People are sinking time and money into it just like any other released game. The idea that there is some kind of paradym change in which they "crunch" a release, fix all the bugs etc is now a fallacy, there's no release date and no plan for that.

Developer has to work around the people playing the game. So it's a post release tech debt world that CIG are integrating updates with.

They just slap the "alpha" word on because it neatly avoids accountability, support, critique, stability etc.

Same as any other piece of entertainment software you paid for and gets post release "updates".

 

[ECity]

Congratulations to 3.13 for being at least three weeks late today.