People don’t seem to realize here that 99% of them are completely incompetent at game design. Anybody heard of the Dunning Kruger effect?
Request for a "Player Council", Resurrected DDF, Streamer Representation to Dev track, Focused Feedback or Similar Directed Community Engagement
- Thread starter Hydrino
- Start date
A council of people with no actual responsibility or consequence of failure. They don't need to be experts in a field, just really like to play games or make YT videos. They get to shoot of opinions and advice, and tell the people that must deal with the consequences what they should do.
Where can I apply?
Yes, it shall be called the Council of Cats:
If you want an open source space game that's a bit like FE2/FFE, then https://pioneerspacesim.net/ is probably what you're after.
I'm against the idea because of what I think of as the "Elite disease".
We're in what's almost a sandbox game with a huge variety of possible activities and play types, control of who we play with, every type of challenge completely optional, no effect on anyone else's game unless they choose to accept it; we're told to blaze our own trail...
... and there are still people who say that others are playing wrong!
Those are the ones who would inevitably get on the council, because they have more opinions than the rest.
We're in what's almost a sandbox game with a huge variety of possible activities and play types, control of who we play with, every type of challenge completely optional, no effect on anyone else's game unless they choose to accept it; we're told to blaze our own trail...
... and there are still people who say that others are playing wrong!
Those are the ones who would inevitably get on the council, because they have more opinions than the rest.
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I was a member of the DDF, and being blunt it's hard to say if anything we actually debated made any difference to FDEVs course of action, with 1 notable exception: Supercruise. FDEVs original idea was to use hot-spots as locations, you select & warped to it. At the time no debate had united the DDF as every idea was split across the board on opinion, but the in game flight mechanic was different. Pretty much all of us said no. FDEV changed direction, they came back with the idea of supercruise, and here we are today. Periodically there are grumblings on the forums about flight times, and nievely the DDF is blamed for this. Supercruise was FDEVs response and brain child, not ours. Sadly, it's still a large skybox, and unlike the successors to Elite, we're still bound by them in ED. Before fuel was introduced, someone during the Alpha flew from 1 star system to another, but the destination system was missing - only after you "jumped" were you transitioned to the new room.
The point of mentioning this - even though I believe we had some great ideas, most of the time it was just an argument. (albeit politely done). Perhaps some of what was debated was used to influence FDEV in their decisions ( /r was mine, for example, in comms ), but ultimately everythign that happened, the good and the bad, was all down to FDEV. Our voices did little, in the grand scheme of things, and IMO the DDF was allowed to happen as a means to garner more funds during the KS. I believe FDEV have zero intention of allowing a player forum like that to happen again, and will rely on the forum instead. Look at what happened to EDO and the scanner - removed, why ? A large enough number of people complained. While we all have a small voice here on the forums, only when we all chant the same will FDEV take notice, until then - it's FDEVs way ...
Deleted member 110222
D
Never, ever let players have any influence on MMO design choices.
It never ends well.
Not everything is a democracy. We don't own the game, so get over it LOL. At least when it's just FD, you know exactly who to point blame at.
It never ends well.
Not everything is a democracy. We don't own the game, so get over it LOL. At least when it's just FD, you know exactly who to point blame at.
Deleted member 110222
D
My usual advice applies: If you're serious about wanting to change the game, apply for a job at FD, or invest in them with your own money at risk.
(Buying a copy of the game is not investing, nor is the kickstarter)
(Buying a copy of the game is not investing, nor is the kickstarter)
In theory, FDev is already listening to its playerbase through a variety of mediums, like this forum, reddit, youtube, etc.
What they might not be doing is listening to players during their design, development of non-released features.
This might be tricky, as player councils (even if elected) might cause a lot of player-player drama and biased/clique-ish content; for instance, most content providers might be considered veterans with special interests, and disconnected from new players or other types of players.
Perhaps a way around this is an anonymous and random focus group of players...but even that isn't perfect. There's no "magic lense" where all design flaws can be seen apriori, and some flaws are liable to squeak by past even the most senior and dedicated group of players.
That being said, there's nothing to stop FDev from encouraging their own employees to play elite more, so they might be more in-tune with some of their players; perhaps incentivize them, provide in-game teambuilding on their own private instance, etc. This might already be done, and remains a tough sell for employees who see Elite as a job. Regardless, playing a game you're working on, for fun, and without someone telling you, is usually the sign of a great game. If an employee doesn't/can't play the game for fun, perhaps questions as to "why not?" might be informative.
What they might not be doing is listening to players during their design, development of non-released features.
This might be tricky, as player councils (even if elected) might cause a lot of player-player drama and biased/clique-ish content; for instance, most content providers might be considered veterans with special interests, and disconnected from new players or other types of players.
Perhaps a way around this is an anonymous and random focus group of players...but even that isn't perfect. There's no "magic lense" where all design flaws can be seen apriori, and some flaws are liable to squeak by past even the most senior and dedicated group of players.
That being said, there's nothing to stop FDev from encouraging their own employees to play elite more, so they might be more in-tune with some of their players; perhaps incentivize them, provide in-game teambuilding on their own private instance, etc. This might already be done, and remains a tough sell for employees who see Elite as a job. Regardless, playing a game you're working on, for fun, and without someone telling you, is usually the sign of a great game. If an employee doesn't/can't play the game for fun, perhaps questions as to "why not?" might be informative.
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...and the high horses they rode in on.A council full of confused old men & people with inflated ego's.
Sounds like we need someone with the required authority:
a player council isn't going to right what players see as wrong or broken.
the problem is fdev's vision for the game. They wanted a game that all playing styles could thrive in ... but such a game is just not possible. So what you get is a compromise across so many different opposing playing styles that it's the hot mess we got currently.
That's not going to ever change, because it would require a total abandon of the original vision - which i doubt fdev will do.
So live with our Toyota Camry and accept that it'll never be <insert car> that you feel it could have so easily been made into instead.
the problem is fdev's vision for the game. They wanted a game that all playing styles could thrive in ... but such a game is just not possible. So what you get is a compromise across so many different opposing playing styles that it's the hot mess we got currently.
That's not going to ever change, because it would require a total abandon of the original vision - which i doubt fdev will do.
So live with our Toyota Camry and accept that it'll never be <insert car> that you feel it could have so easily been made into instead.
Make the people making the game play through an entire game fully to elite in everything doing everything including engineering up max level ships repeating all the loops thousands of times. PvE / PvP. Including earning, maintaining and using a fleet carrier.
Good news you have insight into your own game now and you'll realize what the hell the forum (And everyone else) is on about.
The biggest problem with Elite is the people making this stuff and designing loops are completely out of touch with how it organically fits together outside of their little corner. Make suzie play jims bit to see how it effects her loop and vice versa.
I feel like every different tile of this floor is made by a different person and everybody forgot to grout the floor when they were done.
You wouldn't need the community to point out the obvious if you played your own game. Free advice.
Good news you have insight into your own game now and you'll realize what the hell the forum (And everyone else) is on about.
The biggest problem with Elite is the people making this stuff and designing loops are completely out of touch with how it organically fits together outside of their little corner. Make suzie play jims bit to see how it effects her loop and vice versa.
I feel like every different tile of this floor is made by a different person and everybody forgot to grout the floor when they were done.
You wouldn't need the community to point out the obvious if you played your own game. Free advice.
I feel people are missing the mark by just a little bit in this thread.
I really doubt that the problem is with the developers here. People here are talking about Frontier like it's a small indie studio. This is corporate software development!
I bet a lot of these developers are very talented, have a lot of passion and know how to do their job well. Thing is, they're simply not in control. The shareholders often prefer to listen to marketeers.
On top of that, most these dudes don't understand anything about software development. I think if we saw the amoumt of design sprints for Elite that were binned as a result of a confused middle/upper management, director, shareholder, or marketing goober, we'd probably faint.
I really doubt that the problem is with the developers here. People here are talking about Frontier like it's a small indie studio. This is corporate software development!
I bet a lot of these developers are very talented, have a lot of passion and know how to do their job well. Thing is, they're simply not in control. The shareholders often prefer to listen to marketeers.
On top of that, most these dudes don't understand anything about software development. I think if we saw the amoumt of design sprints for Elite that were binned as a result of a confused middle/upper management, director, shareholder, or marketing goober, we'd probably faint.
I think the game's pretty good. I'd prefer some of the mechanics had a bit more detail or meat to them but otherwise I don't really have any complaints aside from a lot of it being very simplistic.
The method of the devolopment of ED is fine as it is, long may that continue.
Afterall, the Staff at Frontier are responsible through their positions within the Company to accept all the risks & rewards of that Development.
It's all on them, not us, their game, their rules.
Every now & then we get threads like this, were self proclaimed influenzer's think that it's their right to muscle in on Frontier's fame & fortune.
Who do these people think they are?
I would never want to see a game like ED ruined by these basement streamer's each with their own agenda, telling Frontier to add/change/remove this & that out of the game, because player's are playing the game wrong, they're not playing it like them.
As it stands, I can post/say what I feel about the game (within reason - unlike some).
If Frontier staff read my stuff or not I'm given the same opportunity to express my views, as is anyone.
These people don't want that, they want their voices to be listened to, claiming to represent you & me, but putting their own views forward, not yours or mine.
All at no risk to themselves if the game then tanks & no one plays anymore.
You guys want a say in game development, you know what to do..............get a job in gaming development!
Afterall, the Staff at Frontier are responsible through their positions within the Company to accept all the risks & rewards of that Development.
It's all on them, not us, their game, their rules.
Every now & then we get threads like this, were self proclaimed influenzer's think that it's their right to muscle in on Frontier's fame & fortune.
Who do these people think they are?
I would never want to see a game like ED ruined by these basement streamer's each with their own agenda, telling Frontier to add/change/remove this & that out of the game, because player's are playing the game wrong, they're not playing it like them.
As it stands, I can post/say what I feel about the game (within reason - unlike some).
If Frontier staff read my stuff or not I'm given the same opportunity to express my views, as is anyone.
These people don't want that, they want their voices to be listened to, claiming to represent you & me, but putting their own views forward, not yours or mine.
All at no risk to themselves if the game then tanks & no one plays anymore.
You guys want a say in game development, you know what to do..............get a job in gaming development!
I still like the idea of a 'Special Room' at LaveCon like this, where the ED Illuminati gather to guide the game:
And for people to bow and offer cups of tea / beer on demand.
And for people to bow and offer cups of tea / beer on demand.